Development Feedback

[Biolab00]

Truly, the main issue about PVP lies with execution.
If we're just playing a story telling game, there's no point in playing a DND game.
DND game is the accumulation of both good story and great combat.

A player enter Arelith without any story but develops his own story as he ages through perhaps politics, sellsword, hired-thugman, assasinator or sailor etc.
If everything is already pre-destined, there's no real fun.
If a player just stick to his role-play and simply ignores anything that contradicts it, it's no fun.
And this contradiction doesn't just mean PVP. There're players that get cranky when their story seems to be affected and they simply downright ignore your existence. It happens, just that i'm not sure of the trend.

Sure, there are bad PVP and bad things often leaves a bitter feeling much stronger than the taste of sweetness.
There's truly no solution to this.
And the discussion of mechanics etc, does not stop and doesn't truly promote PVP. There's no link between them.
PVP has always, and will always be Player's intention.

As i've wrote in my earlier post, i enjoy the vibrancy of life through all these updates.
And while i do not necessary play them but, that doesn't stop the bystander from feeling the vibrancy.

[Edens_Fall]

I personally wish there was more focus on working on roleplay tools rather than classes (which seems to be what 80-90% of Arelith development is about). If the drive instead was to be working on conflict resolution tools, faction and settlement mechanics, player-given writs, so on...I guess what I personally want from development is new and improved ways to interact with my fellow players (that isn't bashing them on the head with a new combat ability). I know I'm only one "style" of player of the many that coexist on Arelith, but I'm less interested in classes and meta and number balancing and more into roleplay. It'd be nice to see roleplay-focused development happening, you know? Not to say it doesn't happen of course! Just that it feels like for every 'manacles' update, there are a hundred 'balancing pvp meta' updates.

Well stated as always Aradin. It's the RP related Updates I seems to find myself enjoying the most these days. With so many class changes, I have given up on trying to stay on top of the optimal builds

So if I shared one thought, it would be to recommend a focus shift to those things you listed in your own post.

[AstralUniverse]

With so many class changes, I have given up on trying to stay on top of the optimal builds

This is the secret plan.

[RedGiant]

Here are my 2 cents.

A) I have been saying for years we need to stabilize the core classes and concentrate any future building on adding content or narrative-based reshaping of the game world.
B) We should also, by and large, stick to DnD, because it is what we are all here to play.

Anyone who has been here a minute knows the dynamics: Arelith is run by a relatively stable group of server leads, but developed by a cast of ever-changing volunteers. (Except for Action Replay, that dude is not just part of the woodwork, he /is/ the woodwork.) So it is with some delicacy I say the following, because said server leads do come over the fence when they feel their volunteers are being unjustly attacked.

I'm not sure everyone subscribes to my A) and B) proposal.

(But they should!!!)

That is all.

[Dr. B]

There are at least two kinds of changes at issue here:

1. Changes to existing classes.
2. Changes in the form of new classes or paths.

I think (1) is important on a roleplaying server. Mechanical imbalances can contribute to toxic power dynamics that make the gameworld stagnant or unenjoyable for others. However, I really agree with others here that it would be prudent to pump the breaks on (2). The more new classes you add, the more difficult it is to balance the meta because the more moving parts there are. As a result, the pace of the changes starts to rapidly spin out of control. There are currently more build combos on Arelith, and character concepts to complement them, than anyone can realistically play. Why not add a new region of the isle instead?

[CrashGoblin]

There are at least two kinds of changes at issue here:

1. Changes to existing classes.
2. Changes in the form of new classes or paths.

I think (1) is important on a roleplaying server. Mechanical imbalances can contribute to toxic power dynamics that make the gameworld stagnant or unenjoyable for others. However, I really agree with others here that it would be prudent to pump the breaks on (2). The more new classes you add, the more difficult it is to balance the meta because the more moving parts there are. As a result, the pace of the changes starts to rapidly spin out of control. There are currently more build combos on Arelith, and character concepts to complement them, than anyone can realistically play. Why not add a new region of the isle instead?

Coders/class developers and area designers are two different roles done by different people, sometimes they can be the same but it's the exception not the rule.

[Xerah]

There are at least two kinds of changes at issue here:

1. Changes to existing classes.
2. Changes in the form of new classes or paths.

I think (1) is important on a roleplaying server. Mechanical imbalances can contribute to toxic power dynamics that make the gameworld stagnant or unenjoyable for others. However, I really agree with others here that it would be prudent to pump the breaks on (2). The more new classes you add, the more difficult it is to balance the meta because the more moving parts there are. As a result, the pace of the changes starts to rapidly spin out of control. There are currently more build combos on Arelith, and character concepts to complement them, than anyone can realistically play. Why not add a new region of the isle instead?

Except most complaints come from 1, not 2 (see monk)

At any rate, it seems that people have got their wish and it looks like there is a freeze on things, given that Kenji said that Seeker won't be touched until next year.

[Ork]

To quickly address the seeker feedback I gave:

After years of tweaks, fine-tuning and nerfs as a (as I see it) direct result of loremaggedon, I am exhausted. However, I think it's fair to say that overall we're in (once again) another era of relative balance where no build monopolizes agency and no build isn't counterable by any other. Then, monk changes were announced on the horizon.

I might be exhausted, but that doesn't mean everyone is. My frustrations specifically with seeker were based on my opinions and experiences. It was a bitter pill, and it was one that caused harm to developers in how I exercised my opinion. The mantra that I've always believed "if your build isn't on the cutting edge of the meta, you can expect you'll be spared most corrections", and that's not a healthy mantra. All things can be changed and all things should be examined even if I felt seeker/monk was far and away from any upper-tier build.

The nerf showed me that I was too attached to my character, and that attachment bled emotion into how I reacted to Kenji's change to seeker. It wasn't fair to Kenji, and I apologize for sharper words especially shared on discord.

All this to say, I think the vast majority of my posts are aimed at championing what Arelith once was to me, and I haven't considered what Arelith currently is or will be to the players we have here now.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I think it's a bummer that we need to be on hold with new stuff, and I actually think the artist formally known as Spyre had it spot on. In all three of the instances that I mentioned earlier in this thread where changes affected me, it was the surprise factor that made me angry in the moment. I was chugging along, and one day I wake up and it's all over. Knowing that a change was coming, I could have reacted appropriately in all three situations. Maybe I don't make a bard and a loremaster a week or few before they are about to be changed, and maybe I get more aggressive on my characters end game if I know CoT was about to be chopped in half like my character chopped up dragons.

The truth is that no matter what you do you are going to have someone angry when it comes to adjusting classes. That should have been a given going into it, and honestly if you just ride the wave people get over it fast. I know I did, all three times. Just keep plugging away at getting stuff like seeker and so forth right for now, and maybe relax on the newer class/revamps for a bit would be my advice...just not too long.

As a side note, anyone who pays attention to what kenji says knew that monkageddon 2.0 was coming someday. It's hard to understand why anyone is surprised now that it's finally here. And honestly, the shit looks rather cool even if I am a few hours of reading it over and over again from understanding it all

[Waldo52]

The game is inherently hard to balance, particularly with PvP. Particularly with fast paced PvP that consists of wizards with save or die/ save or suck abilities trying to one hit kill martial builds that can down them in a single flurry.

"Balance" is never going to materialize in a system like this, but the devs do a good job in at least trying to maintain some semblance of it. I agree that the rate of these changes is making this difficult job even harder.

That said, I'm loving new classes and paths. I'm loving the updates to neglected classes. I embrace the chaos and confusion that comes from all these changes. The PvP meta is becoming hard to navigate, but this is a role playing server.

[dallion43]

Significant changes such as Loremageddon and the latest monk redesign were a necessity.
Summary; UMD alternative and monk dip (wisdom AC) development bottleneck reduction. Monk class investment was "cornered" to one or two decent builds before the latest redesign.

Most other changes are limited and don't cripple builds unless someone always looks to stay highly competitive. Usually, this means using a build from the current meta. However, the current meta is always prone to changes, which is universal.

Arelith of today accommodates adjusting to changes with the relevel feature and the level one recreation request.

Devs on Arelith are volunteers. From what I know, they are free to pick on what they want to work on as long as it gets the team's approval (Including balancing overview). Limiting this in any way will limit the number of updates Arelith receives.

Regarding Arelith increased complexity, the requirement to use Wiki, keep up to date with changes, and other similar things mentioned in this topic.
I never saw a request for a build topic or How this works? in Builds & Mechanics left unanswered. You might not get the latest meta build, but it will be decent.

Balancing in a competitive game usually means a game of rock-paper-scissors. Balance, where everyone is closely identical, is boring, to say the least.
Many classes on Arelith today are competitive, in a good place and allow different gameplay.

P.C
The above is Imho, of course.

[ViggoEvan]

Right, so my two cents.
Having stuff change rapidly is good for keeping people engaged on a macro level. After all, there's always something new, some cool class combination you really want to try.
On the other hand, it's not usually the optimal builds which get completely lit up during the smaller balancing changes. Generally it seems to be the builds which aren't optimized to begin with, maybe a couple points of ab ac low, maybe a little low discipline, these are the build which get trashed in my opinion. And while I do enjoy all the new classes and stuff, it does get just exhausting trying to keep up on stuff, and hell, just having a build you enjoy and the constant worry of it getting nerfed into the ground because someone found a way to optimize it.