The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

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The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Paint » Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:01 pm

I know there's a Q & A on this, but I figured that I'm making a statement rather than asking a question, so here it goes;

For as long as I've played on Arelith, Skal has been pitched to me as a transitory island with a pretty rapid turnover rate. You arrive on Skal, you go on some adventures, meet some friends, do some RP, get into trouble, maybe a few petty conflicts with the evil-doers or the good-doers, and then you leave. Policing Skal has historically caused grief for a lot of the staff and I'm not even going to begin denying that.

So the level cap change... gives me a bit of pause. On its face, it solves a pretty big problem; Epics on Skal having too much influence and control over the PCs on Skal. I can list a number of times that my own stories have been interrupted by characters that I knew were in epics either because of some ability they used, or they were simply from the mainland, cutting into conflicts and tensions that otherwise might have been resolved more organically had they not been there.

So why do I think that this change might cause some rather undesirable side-effects?

Epics don't just have more levels on Skaljardians, but more equipment -- better equipment. And builds that are designed to function -at- those higher levels. For as long as I've played on Arelith, I've known people to be aggressively for winning, sore losers, and willing to do whatever it takes to carve out their own kingdoms for as long as they can. Sometimes, it leads to good drama, and other times, it leads to people being burnt out and sour feelings.

I think this hard level cap of 19 is going to inspire a wave of Skal-oriented 'builds,' which are minmaxed around optimizing for level 19. Characters at 19 who stick around long enough will have the time and patience to create and optimize their gear, and the gulf between most people who are on Skal transitionally, and those who stay for a long time will be readily felt in a way that cuts into the current idea of Skal.

More permanent factions are going to form around the L19 meta, and Skal is probably going to be caught in a lot more power struggles in the future of a longer and more enduring nature. This could be fun for RP, and I don't necessarily have a personal problem with it, but I think it really depends on whether or not the intent of Skal is still what it was.

I think if the intent of Skal is being a transitional isle with a pretty high turnover rate, what you've done instead of creating meek epics who are -generally- afraid of getting involved but still disrupt narrative, is create a perfect opportunity for people to power-build around level 19 and have long-lasting power on the isle and shot-call across everyone who shows up, and who have no threatening incentive to leave.

If the intent of Skal, however, is changing, it would be nice to know what the new ideal for Skal is.

Anyways, just my two cents.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:47 pm

For all the PvP fun I've had on Skal, and it really is the best PvP in the game, people who are optimized for bullying Skal should really rethink their lives.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Richrd » Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:57 pm

I remember the times when you were considered to be a high level for Skal if you were still sticking around at levels 14 to 16.
It should've never escalated into becoming a zone that allowed for epic level people to stick around.

But my incredible powers of hindsight aside ...

Capping Skal to 19 is as far as I can tell a relatively fine solution to some of the issues that it has, yet at the same time it creates this weird situation where there's this really OOC and gamey aspect now constantly surrounding this particular part of Arelith.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by xanrael » Wed Apr 12, 2023 1:11 am

What's the alternative for enforcing the transitory nature of the place? Creating a time limit for existing in Skal where after x weeks you're auto teleported off the island and can never return? Or something along those lines? Given the level demographics posted for Skal I think it would take something as extreme as this to really enforce that. Even adding a level requirement before the timer started could be largely circumvented unless it was under the average level you finish the writs up.

Personally I'm cool with the level 19 cap and if people want to have conflicts without worrying about opponents calling down reinforcements with -yoink and other factors of epic level play then seems fine to me. Actually I'd probably go a step further and block epic level abilities on Skal entirely so no scrying, yoinking, etc.

[I've never had a character over level 16 in Skal so the change doesn't affect my playstyle.]


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Apr 12, 2023 1:42 am

TBH I am a little curious why epics are still allowed to visit at all. I mean the ability to show up for a day to squish lowbies of the wrong alignment and outfit level 19s with otherwise unavailable end-game equipment is still very disruptive.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Wethrinea » Wed Apr 12, 2023 6:35 am

I have played a few characters that have formed strong bonds on Skal, and who would be very happy to visit it (and have on a few occasions) after moving on to Arelith. It is a very refreshing place to be away from the rest of Arelith.

That said, I think it would be for the better if Skal was one-way only, that is disabling the option to sail back there after you leave. I also think the level cap of 19 is too high, and should instead be 16 if you choose to stick around.

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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by -stick- » Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:52 am

Could add a mark for those who choose to stick around once they reach level 19


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:05 pm

As far as I'm aware, there is exactly one good mechanical reason to allow some epics to be able to travel briefly to Skal: bard songs. The RP reasons are obvious.

I hope they can continue to allow brief Skal tourism for RP reasons (it is possible, after all, to have a Skal trip of "take only memories, leave only footprints"), but if people can't stop from disrupting the economy and social environment, then I suppose it's a case of "this is why we can't have nice things".

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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed Apr 12, 2023 2:08 pm

You know, I have never actually played on skal. Hell, I could count the times I've been there on one hand and half of those were by accident back when a death in some areas of sibayad would send you there. When it made the most sense to be there, after EE's release but before the server transitioned, I was busy seeing if the dm team I left behind on my old server could get it together and take advantage of EE. Spoiler alert, we could not.

That being said, between the recent announcement and the surrounding conversation both on discord channels and this thread, for the first time I have actually given thought to what actual purpose skal serves in the grand scheme of Arelith as a whole, and honestly with things as is I couldn't find an answer. So, I came up with a few options to change that.

1) Just accept that the playerbase likes to lord over things and make skal just another starting area that also has level 30s around. I get the sense that this is an unwanted option, but it is an option, so it had to be mentioned.

2) Remove pvp from the equation of Skal. As I understood it, it was initially held on to because of how easy it was for newer players to find groups to get together with and learn how to roleplay on a nwn server. If pvp has become such a big part of that that we need to worry about epics throwing their weight around, or people making level 19 pvp optimal builds, somewhere that went wrong.

3) My personal favorite idea, make skal its own thing separate from the rest of arelith. If Skal was a low-level server with arelith mechanics, I think there's a chance its popularity would even surpass the main servers at some point. It does have a few issues however that probably would prevent it from reaching its potential, namely that the DM team already seems way too thin (You really want about 1 active dm per 15 players to ensure that everyone feels the love from time to time), and it would probably need its own variation of arelith mechanics since most of it is geared toward what your character looks like at 30.

4) Delete skal, or just make it another area with dungeons you can travel to. Similar to how sibayad or westhavien is now. Yeah, players could live there, but it's not "player controlled". While the two options in 4 are wildly different, I think the result is more or less the same, so I put them together.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:35 pm

I certainly don't think Skal has the kind of problems where deleting it should be in the conversation.

Skal works well as it is. The best thing I can say about it is it feels a lot more like traditional Dungeons and Dragons than regular Arelith's game of politics. It's a place where you actually might have conversations or even party up with someone outside your race/faction/alignment instead of turning them away or bashing them ASAP. That's fun, it may seem like weaker RP than drawing lines in the sand constantly but I don't care. I'm glad it's an option for when I want to roll traditional D&D style and put off dealing with established Arelith settlement and faction RP.

It's always bustling whenever I play there so clearly others enjoy it too. Putting a hard level cap on characters is a good solution. I still wonder why epics are allowed at all, but even when they were a bigger problem it wasn't the end of the world.I think fine tuning is the solution here not blowing up something popular and functional.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Dr Mantis Toboggan MD » Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:59 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 2:08 pm

1) Just accept that the playerbase likes to lord over things and make skal just another starting area that also has level 30s around. I get the sense that this is an unwanted option, but it is an option, so it had to be mentioned.

2) Remove pvp from the equation of Skal. As I understood it, it was initially held on to because of how easy it was for newer players to find groups to get together with and learn how to roleplay on a nwn server. If pvp has become such a big part of that that we need to worry about epics throwing their weight around, or people making level 19 pvp optimal builds, somewhere that went wrong.

3) My personal favorite idea, make skal its own thing separate from the rest of arelith. If Skal was a low-level server with arelith mechanics, I think there's a chance its popularity would even surpass the main servers at some point. It does have a few issues however that probably would prevent it from reaching its potential, namely that the DM team already seems way too thin (You really want about 1 active dm per 15 players to ensure that everyone feels the love from time to time), and it would probably need its own variation of arelith mechanics since most of it is geared toward what your character looks like at 30.

4) Delete skal, or just make it another area with dungeons you can travel to. Similar to how sibayad or westhavien is now. Yeah, players could live there, but it's not "player controlled". While the two options in 4 are wildly different, I think the result is more or less the same, so I put them together.

None of these really hit the nail on the head in so far as what Skal is intended for, that being a low to mid level place on the server that allows new players/characters to easily meet up and form bonds whilst also freeing them up to make a name for themselves away from long established factions and PCs before moving on to Arelith "proper".

A hard cap at level 19 is a good solution, dropping it even lower would be a better one, as would making it impossible to return... A lot of people treat the place like it's a fun snow resort rather than the harsh, frozen rock in the middle of nowhere that anyone sane would be keen to escape...forever!


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Apr 13, 2023 12:59 am

Dr Mantis Toboggan MD wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:59 pm

None of these really hit the nail on the head in so far as what Skal is intended for, that being a low to mid level place on the server that allows new players/characters to easily meet up and form bonds whilst also freeing them up to make a name for themselves away from long established factions and PCs before moving on to Arelith "proper".

I don't know if this is the actual mission statement for skal or something you personally just subscribed to it, but if you are spot on then it's a mission statement that was always doomed to fail. Level 19 the way levels go these days is probably just about enough time for a new player to get comfortable with what they are doing, likely after a few failed attempts that died in the range of 5-10 or so. I don't think anyone could be surprised that those players are now resistant to leaving, they are just getting comfortable in what plays like a different server all together from arelith proper.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Kalthariam » Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:59 am

I don't think I've ever been to Skal, because I've been told epics aren't allowed to go there, I've wanted to visit and see what it's about, but I also don't want to be distruptive given the fact my characters are mostly underdark characters. :(


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by tessimon » Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:25 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2023 12:59 am
Dr Mantis Toboggan MD wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:59 pm

None of these really hit the nail on the head in so far as what Skal is intended for, that being a low to mid level place on the server that allows new players/characters to easily meet up and form bonds whilst also freeing them up to make a name for themselves away from long established factions and PCs before moving on to Arelith "proper".

I don't know if this is the actual mission statement for skal or something you personally just subscribed to it, but if you are spot on then it's a mission statement that was always doomed to fail. Level 19 the way levels go these days is probably just about enough time for a new player to get comfortable with what they are doing, likely after a few failed attempts that died in the range of 5-10 or so. I don't think anyone could be surprised that those players are now resistant to leaving, they are just getting comfortable in what plays like a different server all together from arelith proper.

I think there is a bit different environment that can change the drive to level up.

For example on the mainland if Bob engages in a bit of conflict at level 10 with another level 10 because that's how the scene played out, there is a chance he's going to encounter a level 30 magical SWAT team in the future in response. So maybe Bob keeps his head down and focuses on writs/leveling instead. He thinks to himself, "well when I hit level 30 then I'll RP out conflict." It doesn't even need to be a high possibility, just that it's more than once in a blue moon for Bob to be adverse to risking it.

Take scrying, yoink, teleport blocking, and people 20+ levels higher than Bob off the table and he may be more interested in playing out situations organically as they happen at the expense of leveling speed. Completing all 3 writs every day may be of a lower importance.

This is not meant as an absolute, some players on the mainland take leveling at a casual pace and some people in Skal blitz through the levels at MMO power-leveling speeds.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Ork » Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:37 am

Dr Mantis Toboggan MD wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:59 pm

None of these really hit the nail on the head in so far as what Skal is intended for, that being a low to mid level place on the server that allows new players/characters to easily meet up and form bonds whilst also freeing them up to make a name for themselves away from long established factions and PCs before moving on to Arelith "proper".

A hard cap at level 19 is a good solution, dropping it even lower would be a better one, as would making it impossible to return... A lot of people treat the place like it's a fun snow resort rather than the harsh, frozen rock in the middle of nowhere that anyone sane would be keen to escape...forever!

Well said. Skal is an environment that behaves separately than other locations. The turnover rate of characters there is blessedly high that you could start and finish an arc and start another one with completely new characters. Actions have weight, but that weight evaporates after a month or so. Arelith proper hordes actions like currency and has a memory many real life years long that it is almost impossible to start up a new roleplay angle that isn't already going to have well-supplied L30 antagonists lining up to topple it before it starts.

I wish a lot of what Skal gets right would transfer over to Arelith proper.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:37 am

Dr Mantis Toboggan MD wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:59 pm

None of these really hit the nail on the head in so far as what Skal is intended for, that being a low to mid level place on the server that allows new players/characters to easily meet up and form bonds whilst also freeing them up to make a name for themselves away from long established factions and PCs before moving on to Arelith "proper".

A hard cap at level 19 is a good solution, dropping it even lower would be a better one, as would making it impossible to return... A lot of people treat the place like it's a fun snow resort rather than the harsh, frozen rock in the middle of nowhere that anyone sane would be keen to escape...forever!

Yeah I agree with this. I think hitting "new characters" is important because a lot, quite possibly the vast majority of Skal characters aren't brand new players. They're players who have at least some, if not a veteran's amount of experience on Arelith, know very well how things work and prefer this setting for low level RP. If I don't have an immediate game plan for a new character that involves jumping into some existing faction or RP on the mainland that's where I'd prefer to spend low levels every time. It's a much more welcoming and supportive place than Cordor when you're an unknown.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:41 am

I can see the benefit of a change of pace for existing players that already know what arelith is. My point was more to the tune of funneling new players in that direction is actually counterproductive because as you guys pointed out, it's a completely different server than the rest of Arelith. And that may play a role in why some players never want to leave, which I think is a big part of what inspired this thread in the first place. Players lingering into the epic levels.

Either way, my friend has convinced me to join him in a jaunt through skal, so in a few weeks or so I can actually speak through experience rather than theory.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:11 am

I'm definitely on the camp that says if you cant stay in Skal after a certain level, then you should also be unable to come visit from outside. Skal should be a thing you dont ever want to return to, ICly. If someone really misses Skal, then make a new character and start in Skal again.

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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Spriggan Bride » Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:16 pm

Question about this.. I'll just ask here instead of a new thread.

For existing characters that started on Skal:

Please contact the DM Team, I have added a tool for them to flag you as such.

If I have a Skal character am I expected to contact the DMs on my own? When and how? What if it's an alt I don't use much or plan to play later? What happens if I don't do this?

I guess I hope it'll either be automated or we'll be on our honor to leave when it's time because I don't want to have to bother DMs when I don't have to.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Sincra » Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:52 am

Spriggan Bride wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:16 pm

Question about this.. I'll just ask here instead of a new thread.

For existing characters that started on Skal:

Please contact the DM Team, I have added a tool for them to flag you as such.

If I have a Skal character am I expected to contact the DMs on my own? When and how? What if it's an alt I don't use much or plan to play later? What happens if I don't do this?

I guess I hope it'll either be automated or we'll be on our honor to leave when it's time because I don't want to have to bother DMs when I don't have to.

This is a courtesy request.

I recognised two situations:

  • RP reasons, people may want to be flagged as from Skal.
  • Want to be level frozen and put into the infrastructure made.

Both are valid, and going past 19 will just result in DM's applying it anyway.
So this is up to each player!

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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by -XXX- » Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:05 am

OK, this might be more of a brainstormy suggestion, but hear me out. What if...

...the artificers built a teleportation gun on their tower that would be randomly teleporting people off the island instead?

This might take the form of a daily roll and might even be building on the award roll scripts.
Basically, as soon as a character is eligible for an award roll, there's a minor chance they'll get hit by the ray and whisked off to Guldorand - like a 5% daily chance at lvl 16 moving up to a 95% chance at lvl 30 (might even take into account stuff like bank account and gear like the award rolls do to increase the chance).


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by tessimon » Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:44 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:05 am

OK, this might be more of a brainstormy suggestion, but hear me out. What if...

...the artificers built a teleportation gun on their tower that would be randomly teleporting people off the island instead?

This might take the form of a daily roll and might even be building on the award roll scripts.
Basically, as soon as a character is eligible for an award roll, there's a minor chance they'll get hit by the ray and whisked off to Guldorand - like a 5% daily chance at lvl 16 moving up to a 95% chance at lvl 30 (might even take into account stuff like bank account and gear like the award rolls do to increase the chance).

I suspect a decent subset of the people affected would be enraged that their agency was stripped away at random to a permanent consequence. As it seems to be in place of the cap it would be worse for everyone else too as the people who get lucky but know their time could be any day might be more quick to throw their epic level power about "while they still can". Not to mention any disruption in ongoing non-conflict RP that could happen when the fresh level 16 gets whisked away without any warning or closure.


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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Cthuletta » Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:14 pm

I've only ever played through Skal once and I had a really good time to be honest! I personally left at level 20, if memory serves me right, and by that time my character was definitely someone who was well known by others, which was a bit crazy given I had only been there a week or two.
Another post above is correct in that the faster-paced nature of Skal is very refreshing since there aren't factions or groups or even 'deeds' that are around/known RL YEARS after the fact, however I'd also counter to say some of those on the main island aren't known in a good light for maybe one misdeed, and others worked very hard to be well known for the evil-doer or do-gooder that they are. Part of what endears me to Arelith proper is it's very rich history of the characters who come across and leave their mark. Not only do we have D&D lore, but we have Arelith-specific lore because of the tendency to hold onto things like that. So I'd disagree with merging Skal with Arelith, making it it's own non-leaveable server, or deleting it entirely, since while the history isn't really there because it's so rapid-moving, the ability to play through it and become 'someone' for a short period of time is a very refreshing thing to do from time to time. Just a nice change of pace every so often.

As far as Epics staying and maintaining their time on Skal, I agree with this change. If you go past 19, you get shoo'd. It's become an IC joke in some circles that people from Skal who come to the main settlements were 'Big fishes in a little pond' based on how they act since they were hard-hitters and well known on Skal, but are now essentially a nobody who is trying to bullrush or build their way back to their previous status in Arelith proper. It can be quite daunting of a transition for those characters since they basically have to 'restart' their journey. Granted this could be a personality trait of their character and that is absolutely fine, however if they would prefer to stay that well-known staple, it's probably best they stay in Skal at level 19 because RP ticks can definitely get you into epics even if you're not actively grinding, and it keeps that level of fairness across the other new players. If you want to be a well known and respected (or perhaps hated) person off the bat in say, Cordor, another starting location, you ARE being thrown into social circles that've already been established. It's harder, but doable, but no matter where you start you are more likely to become known by the people in that location since you're putting in that time and effort on getting to know people and access materials and gear and writ-teams and so forth that are quite necessary.
All that is to say, especially when it's being a PvP-centric or conflict aimed character, it boils down to what the player wants to do with their story. They wanna be well known or that big fish? It comes to the choice of doing it once, or having to do it twice. Once in Skal, then again elsewhere. But where-ever they DO go, it's generally recommended that their ability and levels is on par with the others in that location. You're not gonna find many epics in Skal to begin with, but throw a rock and you hit an epic-geared 30 anywhere else. Being level 19 in Skal would be 'The Powerhouse' but the others still have a chance against you. This is a wonderful option for those who don't want to play in a epic-reigning server, they can simply stay on Skal and have that pre-epic experience!

Now as far as epic-level folks visiting, or returning. I'm somewhat biased, given I on the rare occasion do visit Skal on my characters and it's usually something like- 'Oh we're returning this person to Skal who left too early because they didn't know any better' or I'm doing something like selling cheap-o jewelry boxes because both my character and I know there's a market for that kind of thing with the newer players and it's helpful. I personally never go to start a fight, or even end a fight, since I understand I am vastly overpowered for that area, but I recognize not everyone is doing that, and someone else may try to start something with my toon without knowing I can squash them with one hit/spell. That's not particularly fun for anyone, neither me nor the other player.
I think being able to visit for very brief periods of time, like a couple RL hours, should be okay. Whether to sell a commodity, just see what it's like, or with this new change perhaps someone who left Skal to venture the main land, but had a close friend who remained level 19 on Skal that they want to see again. Just visiting is a fun time, and the stories we hear from Skal on the main island make it a mysterious and interesting place that many people 'just want to see what it's like'. However, to avoid any abuse of those visitors (since I don't think any of this conversation revolves around those who are just poking their head in and not causing issues), I think there should be harder restrictions ON those epic-leveled folks who visit. I can think of a few ways to curb this but they're probably more nuanced and would need to be kinked out by people smarter than me. Obviously if you stay past a day, the DMs are gonna turn their Eye of Sauron on you with an MoD and that's fine. But as far as an automated system to help them out in the meantime?

1) Temporarily lowering the level of anyone above 19, to 19, or perhaps to 21 since they ARE a max level character and therefore more powerful than those on Skal. This lowering can revert back once they leave the area.
2) Giving a text time-limit warning of how long they are there before they need to leave, much like how a temporary shop/ship gives you a warning on your property being released soon. Overstay that time limit, and you get booted to the Skal Docks on the surface server. Maybe the artificer teleporting device idea would work for that as an IC explanation!

Anyway, just my ramblings. Hope it made sense, I am freshly awake and newly on the coffee drip, so.

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Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by DM Poppy » Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:08 pm

Skal Present Date -

All new Characters are locked to level 19 automatically.

All existing Characters are being locked to 19. (Epics that do not want to be lowered and locked have had numerous warnings over a week to leave. If they are on Skal when we are locking, they'll be lowered if they fail to leave immediately.)

Visitors have conditions they must follow and it's much easier for us to enforce with the surrounding pcs being level 19 and marked as Skal starters.

Skal Future Plans -

Additional scripts to automatically cap everyone who remains on Skal.

Additional scripts to automatically lower visitors who stay beyond a reasonable time. XP is restored on tick.

Changes to property ownership. Property cannot be owned over by Characters over 19.

A handicap feature has been discussed. But their are no plans to introduce it without feedback on the intended system once in place.

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

Khorvale
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:19 am

Re: The Inevitable Skal Change Feedback Thread

Post by Khorvale » Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:45 am

I doubt any amount of mechanical tweaking is going to fix a cultural problem to be honest. Reactionary sanctions against players pushing the boundaries they are provided to the limit, and sometimes beyond I suppose, isn't going to suddenly make people act better, it's just a new boundary to be pushed.

I've seen people mention player fatigue but I'm wondering, is DM fatigue maybe also an issue? It would be very understandable, given the long history of the PW. I certainly had the impression that some DMs are pretty much experiencing siege mentality of sorts in regards to the players when I played here during COVID and I suppose that might have gotten better rather than worse?

Are the DMs taking care of themselves?? :)


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