Sorcerer

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Svrtr
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Svrtr » Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:46 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 5:32 am

Apples and oranges.
Hexblade is a melee class - one can dip it for dark blessing or incorporate it into a melee build, it does even have warlock synergies for hideous blow builds - I'm not saying that any of these are S-tier optimal build decisions, but they won't result in a dysfunctional character build.
Sorcerer is a caster class with low AB progression - its multiclassing options are extremely limited by the way CL calculation works.

And "indescribably potent" sounds like a hyperbole here:
PvP: The evo combo isn't THAT good - it's safe to say that the PvP meta has moved past this (1). Which isn't a complaint - it's actually better that way, but the sorcerer has very little else going for it.
PvE: The sorcerer is a very poor summon/party buffer and when reduced to the role of a mass haste dispenser it's not even great at that by the virtue of having a vancian spell list in a world where haste and mass haste infinicasters exist.


(1) between 5/- DR from protective essences 5% DI from the headband of protection and 1/- DR from the shield spell potion ANY build can passively shave off 80 damage from any incoming evo combo, putting it into a ballpark of 420 damage (which might still seem like a big scary number, but it really isn't).

You're right in that its hyperbolic in how it is stated, but through a combination of both the saveless KD of hellball and timestop and the oppressive nature of mords (and a seeming lack of people ACTUALLY wearing the headband of protection), its combo is still potent. Likewise, the number of people who actually run with 500 HP is ever seemingly surprisingly low, perhaps concerningly so really though this part is more anecdotal.

As for hexblade, I mean pure 30 hexblade. Hex dip is awful. 30 hex is crazy strong in its saveless removal of 5 AC, AB, and skills for KD spam while also getting 35% DI and a +6 weapon... its just really, really boring to play

As for IGMs, shield and the headband both reduce it from 240 damage on a maximized IGMs to 220, but that is likewise assuming you don't get off the mords to breach shield and that they are wearing said helmet.

Thus: 35 damage per 4 damage types of hellball, 140 damage average reduced to 120 (about 90 if they do have NEP up and it wasn't breached or dispelled by 2x mords), 45d6 + 10 for 167.5 average damage reduced to about 162, 2x maximized IGMs for lets say 100 per cast (20 missiles, 2d6 per missile, max 10 missiles per enemy) damage per assuming both headband of protection and 1/- from shield assuming its not breached.

Assuming you don't breach NEP nor shield, that is 90+162+100+100 for a lower bound of 452 damage on average, going up to 482 if you do breach NEP, going up to 502 if they have neither shield nor the headband of protection.

Timing this combo is tedious and takes practice, but its potent, its made easier if the enemy is taking a round to read a scroll to WoF your summons, and you have leeway if you just use another IGMs. But its really boring


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:16 am

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:25 pm
Hazard wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:14 pm

Infinicasting = bad
Vancian spellcasting = good

Because?

I actually also provided a reasoning.

Because a wizard doesn't need to be more neglected compared to Sorcerer; and Sorcerer is far more successful than a wizard. This creates a tension between them that cannot be neglected while examining the classes.

I think it's more likely the infini-casters should be hit with the Nerf-bat, ( and melee brought down to par -- as has begun happening ) due to all the power creep. I do think some of the Arcane spells could probably look to be re-examined though to make more interesting variety rather than buffing Sorcerers specifically; so that a sorcerer of a DIFFERENT setup can still be successful.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 am

Svrtr wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:46 pm

Assuming you don't breach NEP nor shield, that is 90+162+100+100 for a lower bound of 452 damage on average, going up to 482 if you do breach NEP, going up to 502 if they have neither shield nor the headband of protection.

Timing this combo is tedious and takes practice, but its potent, its made easier if the enemy is taking a round to read a scroll to WoF your summons, and you have leeway if you just use another IGMs. But its really boring

Shield and NEP are no. 25. and 19. on the breach list, so stripping them often requires more than one disjunction (i.e. one less IGMS in the mix).

But in essence we're not saying anything so different here, other than the claim that the Sorcerer did one thing and it was good at it.
I said it wasn't really: evo combo dealing up to 500 damage is not that good. It takes 2 rounds of tempo, is fairly skill and timing intensive and is 1x/day.

By comparison in the same 2 rounds a blaster warlock deals 560 (4xMaV140) damage, can keep doing that all day at greater distance and with the skill requirement of clicking the red man ...and how much damage can an AA do in 2 rounds again? There are other builds that also do that one thing but do it much better now, is what I'm saying.

Arguments stating that "X is there to keep the Sorcerer in check" aren't really valid anymore - that's NWN boomer brain talking. We're agonizing over something that once was but isn't as relevant anymore.

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:16 am

Because a wizard doesn't need to be more neglected compared to Sorcerer; and Sorcerer is far more successful than a wizard. This creates a tension between them that cannot be neglected while examining the classes.

Wizard has seen a lot more Dev attention than the Sorcerer (both overall and in the recent years) - it also enjoys much greater QoL as a result and we can see much more people playing Wizards than Sorcerers.
Yes both classes are so similar that any changes made to one can cast an unflattering light on the other. However, that would've been be a poor reason for never changing anything about either.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Helsing » Tue May 02, 2023 3:45 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 am

By comparison in the same 2 rounds a blaster warlock deals 560 (4xMaV140) damage, can keep doing that all day at greater distance and with the skill requirement of clicking the red man ...and how much damage can an AA do in 2 rounds again? There are other builds that also do that one thing but do it much better now, is what I'm saying.

How's warlock able to bump 560 damage in two rounds, mind elaborate? If so it's bit too good for a class with good steady damage.

Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 02, 2023 5:09 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 am

By comparison in the same 2 rounds a blaster warlock deals 560 (4xMaV140) damage

Warlock with Mastery 3 and Precision blast gets 15 cl + 12 mastery III = 27 * 1d6 = 94.5~
That's 94.5 * 4 = 378 to a single target in 2 rounds.

Warlock with Mastery 3 and Agonizing blast gets 94.5 + 13 = 107.5~
107.5 x4 = 430 - 25% (concealment) = 322~

Warlock's damage is very nice and consistent, and is likely to cause a lot of trouble in open spaces with distance advantage, but it is nowhere near 140 per blast for any functional warlock build.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 02, 2023 6:03 am

I miscounted additional 8d6 for eldritch masteries, it's actually:

15d6 = Warlock 30 : 3d6+12d6
12d6 = Epic Eldritch Mastery (20 hard DEX)
13 = Agonizing Blast (24 hard CHA)


27d6 (MaV 94.5) +13
107.5

  • can blast 2x a round while hasted
  • can Timestop (actually can pick and choose how because of access to both Lore and UMD), so blast, blast, time stop, blast, blast, blast
    5x107.5 = 537.5 damage in two rounds

Is it the best way to build a warlock? Probably not, but we're talking about the Sorcerer being a one trick pony and why it should stay one and remain being shoehorned into it. So here's a one trick pony warlock that still beats the Sorc at its own game, while infinicasting and still enjoying better QoL.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Helsing » Tue May 02, 2023 9:24 am

-XXX- wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 6:03 am

I miscounted additional 8d6 for eldritch masteries, it's actually:

15d6 = Warlock 30 : 3d6+12d6
12d6 = Epic Eldritch Mastery (20 hard DEX)
13 = Agonizing Blast (24 hard CHA)


27d6 (MaV 94.5) +13
107.5

  • can blast 2x a round while hasted
  • can Timestop (actually can pick and choose how because of access to both Lore and UMD), so blast, blast, time stop, blast, blast, blast
    5x107.5 = 537.5 damage in two rounds

Is it the best way to build a warlock? Probably not, but we're talking about the Sorcerer being a one trick pony and why it should stay one and remain being shoehorned into it. So here's a one trick pony warlock that still beats the Sorc at its own game, while infinicasting and still enjoying better QoL.

Gotcha, thanks for explanation. Yeah I always think eldritch blast damage is a bit too high, even in a server where enemies are hp bloated. 6d6 damage on mastery 3 is too much. It shall grant less damage than Agonizing blast, because it still grant +3 ab to blast.

Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 02, 2023 11:22 am

-XXX- wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 6:03 am

I miscounted additional 8d6 for eldritch masteries, it's actually:

15d6 = Warlock 30 : 3d6+12d6
12d6 = Epic Eldritch Mastery (20 hard DEX)
13 = Agonizing Blast (24 hard CHA)


27d6 (MaV 94.5) +13
107.5

  • can blast 2x a round while hasted
  • can Timestop (actually can pick and choose how because of access to both Lore and UMD), so blast, blast, time stop, blast, blast, blast
    5x107.5 = 537.5 damage in two rounds

Is it the best way to build a warlock? Probably not, but we're talking about the Sorcerer being a one trick pony and why it should stay one and remain being shoehorned into it. So here's a one trick pony warlock that still beats the Sorc at its own game, while infinicasting and still enjoying better QoL.

Your math is still off.

It is actually in 3 rounds not 2. 50% extra time from 2 rounds. If we magically increase the sorc's combo by an extra round (meaning 2 more igms) then sorc still does more damage. We havent yet mentioned Hellball's saveless KD part or that timestop from both scroll and grimoire still 3 seconds longer in casting time compared to spellbook, so that's one more spell cast time the sorc has in the same time frame.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 02, 2023 12:59 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 11:22 am

Your math is still off.

Possible, let's try this again step by step then:

Sorc
Round 1: Haste (Action1), Mord (Action2)
Round 2: Hellball (Action1) : nets 3 sec KD (IGMS (Extra1)), Time Stop (Action2) : nets 9 sec (IGMS (Extra2), IGMS (Extra3), IGMS (Extra4))
140+5x120 = 620 unmitigated damage. Factor in headband and shield and we'll end up with:
620 - 24 (5%DI magical) - 40 (40x 1/- DR magical) - 20 (5/- DR div, entr, neg, pos) = 536

Warlock
Round 1: Haste (Action1), Blast (Action2)
Round 2: Blast (Action1), Time Stop (Action2) : nets 9 sec (Blast (Extra1), Blast (Extra2), Blast (Extra3))
5x107.5 = 537.5 unmitigated damage. Warlock blast can have damage types that only ever get mitigated only by one defensive essence (like positive or entropy, for example):
537.5 - 5 (5/- DR) = 532.5

  • Warlocks get infinite extended haste (that the Sorc doesn't have), so they are much more likely to start the encounter already hasted (this can represent 107.5 extra blast damage instead of using a haste potion as the first action - rounding it all up at 640 damage).
  • Warlocks don't really need to add a Mord into the mix unless their target has concealment (which they can clearly see unlike stuff like NEP). They can also show up prepaired with invis purge aura on (that cancels out Imp Invis - the most common source of concealment).
  • The entire evo combo can get halved or completely countered with Shield (which is very low on the breach list) and Abju Foci (12/- magical DR means 0 damage from any incoming IGMS) - this can represent the need for additional mords (each instance replacing 114 IGMS damage).

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Svrtr » Tue May 02, 2023 1:09 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 12:59 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 11:22 am

Your math is still off.

Possible, let's try this again step by step then:

Sorc
Round 1: Haste (Action1), Mord (Action2)
Round 2: Hellball (Action1) : nets 3 sec KD (IGMS (Extra1)), Time Stop (Action2) : nets 9 sec (IGMS (Extra2), IGMS (Extra3), IGMS (Extra4))
140+5x120 = 620 unmitigated damage. Factor in headband and shield and we'll end up with:
620 - 24 (5%DI magical) - 40 (40x 1/- DR magical) - 20 (5/- DR div, entr, neg, pos) = 536

Warlock
Round 1: Haste (Action1), Blast (Action2)
Round 2: Blast (Action1), Time Stop (Action2) : nets 9 sec (Blast (Extra1), Blast (Extra2), Blast (Extra3))
5x107.5 = 537.5 unmitigated damage. Warlock blast can have damage types that only ever get mitigated only by one defensive essence (like positive or entropy, for example):
537.5 - 5 (5/- DR) = 532.5

  • Warlocks get infinite extended haste (that the Sorc doesn't have), so they are much more likely to start the encounter already hasted (this can represent 107.5 extra blast damage instead of using a haste potion as the first action - rounding it all up at 640 damage).
  • Warlocks don't really need to add a Mord into the mix unless their target has concealment (which they can clearly see unlike stuff like NEP). They can also show up prepaired with invis purge aura on (that cancels out Imp Invis - the most common source of concealment).
  • The entire evo combo can get halved or completely countered with Shield (which is very low on the breach list) and Abju Foci (12/- magical DR means 0 damage from any incoming IGMS) - this can represent the need for additional mords (each instance replacing 114 IGMS damage).

This too is wrong. They won't have nine seconds of time stop. If they have 80 lore it's 6 seconds to cast, If they use the book there is a one round delay and only hell ball sized aoe

If they go agonizing over precision too then even more to the point. We must likewise factor that a nat 20 is a 5% chance of 150% damage which comes to be 7.5% over the curve of 5% vs a nat 1 which is 100% damage lost for 5% of the time being 0% which is an average 97.5%

So em3 blast average 94.5 reduced to about 92.5

Then each blast is 5/- so 5 blasts would be -25 for, by your math,537.5 reduced to 512.5 before factoring any of the other above averages or people having conceal from concealment instead of imp invis which purge won't clear

Likewise warlock isn't doing this with 60 ac and Cha to saves on a class that only needs to gear Cha and con

Likewise you don't add g.ruin which is like 167.t more damage reduced by 5/- for 162.5


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 02, 2023 2:00 pm

I give up, honestly. If sorcerer gets buffed by 1 more spell per level or something else this crazy I or someone else will just get it nerfed by playing it.

It's even summer pretty soon. The time of the year we break a class traditionally , right?

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 02, 2023 2:21 pm

Yeah, go for it!
I'm genuinely curious about what side of argument you'll join after experiencing the Sorc outside PGCC.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 02, 2023 2:28 pm

You enter a math argument. You bring bad math and lose the argument. You default to personal snark. I'm out.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 02, 2023 2:34 pm

Don't insult my math it checks out. There was nothing snarky about it, you're just being needlessly defensive.
But... don't let the door hit you, I guess.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Two for the Rogues » Tue May 02, 2023 3:10 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 2:00 pm

I give up, honestly. If sorcerer gets buffed by 1 more spell per level or something else this crazy I or someone else will just get it nerfed by playing it.

It's even summer pretty soon. The time of the year we break a class traditionally , right?

Can you explain a build for which +1 spell per circle actually meaningfully affects Sorcerer? Can you explain which spell focii combination would actually benefit? You make broad, sweeping claims like these without really substantiating them, which is especially annoying when you mock me for typing too much.

Additionally: can you explain how we should address spontaneous casters with the addition of new spells? Each time that happens, it decreases the percentage of spells at each circle known by spontaneous casters. This nerfs the class in practice by making its alternatives (eg wizard) stronger without providing suitable compensation elsewhere in the kit as justification.

The strongest arcane caster on the server is Spellsword. It will remain this way even if sorc is given a bonus spell per level, because right now there's too much save bloat for DCs to be an effective strategy. No summons - the main drawback to spellsword - is not currently a problem because that's what happens 2 seconds into PvP and chill when the wof comes out, plus you cannot healing potion spam to sustain a 50 AB melee fighter beating you to death. You can healing potion spam to sustain IGMS, however.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Kaeldre » Tue May 02, 2023 6:10 pm

Additionally: can you explain how we should address spontaneous casters with the addition of new spells? Each time that happens, it decreases the percentage of spells at each circle known by spontaneous casters. This nerfs the class in practice by making its alternatives (eg wizard) stronger without providing suitable compensation elsewhere in the kit as justification.

Well, for this argument to be true the spells added must be competetive. Most new spells added have an interesting niche, but few if any are a new mainstay. In essence, I think this is far less of an issue when power and balance is concerned.

To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Drethian » Tue May 02, 2023 9:47 pm

Giving sorcerer +1 spell per level will neither break the class or make it overpowered.
It will only give it the bare minimum versatility it needs to utilize its spell focuses.

Sorcerers have a pitifully small quantity of spells that that they can memorize at each level.

Most of these must be dedicated to memorizing mandatory spells that every caster must take, after which: You're left with virtually no room for customization to speak of whatsoever.

If a sorcerer bothers with spell focuses at all (aside from abjuration), they quickly discover that they have very little room to actually select DC spells that utilize their spell foci, unless they're willing to make huge, very punishing sacrifices to their build.

Sorcerer is so egregiously unpopular that any sorcerer you spot in-game may as well be called a unicorn. That in itself speaks to the current, sad state of the class.

It has been heavily nerfed, even more so than other DC casters. And in its current state, it is not the game-breakingly terrifying monster people make it out to be. Giving it an additional spell per level would not make it such.

Divine sorcerer has already been specifically targeted with significant nerfs, particularly to its AC: Its primary defensive attribute against melees. Its AC is nowhere near untouchable or overpowered at current. Hence why even divine sorcerers are unpopular unicorns in the current meta.

  • A 26/4 or 27/3 divine sorcerer right now can self buff 55 AC with EMA, divine shield, haste, mage armor, shadow shield, and cat's grace (x2) with a base dexterity of 8, which is standard. You can shove your AC up to 56 with a red ioun stone and 57 if you rune your gear for +2 dexterity. And if you manage to fit armor skin into the build (at the cost of either Hellball, GR, an Epic Spell Focus, or the mandatory feats of ESF Disc + ESF Concentration) then you can push it to 59 at great sacrifice to your build.
  • To put this into perspective, the average melee strength build is walking around with 51-52 AB not including true strike or buffs from their party members. Self-buffed, they need to roll a 7 or higher to hit 59 AC without truestrike, which is absolutely trivial.

Sorcerers should be the least of your concern. DC casters are not the top of the food chain in 2023 Arelith.

All DC casters on Arelith have been the recipient of extensive nerfs to their offensive capability (both their DC spells and their summons). It's WM and Rogue summer, not DC Sorcerer/Wizard summer.

Reason #1: Spellcraft now applies versus all spells (including 9th level)

  • This is the bandaid that made it so that even classes that traditionally get horrifically bad saves (ex: Weapon Master) can now achieve practically untouchable, spell-impervious saves with a mere bit of gearing investment and spellcraft dump.
  • Before this change, melee builds had to attentively ensure they kept up their death ward, clarity/mind blank, and freedom. Where as now, if you know what you're doing, you can safely run at a mage without using any of the three, knowing your +6 to +16 unisaves from spellcraft will compensate for what might otherwise be one of your build's most significant weaknesses.
  • Normally in NWN, it was the paladins, blackguards, and CoTs who were the most feared anti-mage melee builds in the game (barring SR monks) because their saves were so high that they simply could not be hard CC'd with DC spells. Now, virtually any melee build can boast that title if they but gear a little bit for saves and skill-dump into spellcraft.
  • The only builds that still have bad saves versus spells in the current meta are ones played by people who either do not care, or whom have been grossly negligent in their gearing.

Reason #2: Sequencers no longer protect summons from dismissal via SR or Mantles.

Due to this change, anyone with access to Word of Faith, Banishment, or Dismissal scrolls - or the spells themselves) can instantly remove a mage's summons from the battlefield with minimal effort. Which means they're dismissible by just about everyone.

IN SUMMARY:

DUE TO THE SPELLCRAFT CHANGES:

  • High 30s to low 40s universal saves are now easily achievable by most anyone who makes the effort, no matter how saves-deprived their build might normally be.
  • Consequently, properly-built melee builds are now nearly impossible to hard CC or pin down with DC spells, which is enormously bad news for the average 390-420 HP DC caster.
  • Traditionally low saves melee builds are no longer low saves builds, as they once were, because they readily have access to up to +16 universal saves via spellcraft. (33 base, +2 on 11 items = 66 spellcraft = 13 to all saves. For those who really try, add SF + ESF for 3 more for a total of +16 to unisaves.)
  • Bad saves versus spells now only exist if a player is simply grossly negligent, uncaring, or incompetent.
  • Competent players will always stat even their weaponmasters to be virtually immune to DC spells.

DUE TO THE SUMMON CHANGES: Barring built-in resistances to WoF/Banishment/Dismissal, summons are a non-factor in PvP against competent players. They cannot be relied upon for viability in PvP.

ON THE TOPIC OF AN EVOKER'S POSSIBLE DAMAGE OUTPUT: Most evocation damage spells are reflex save for half, which means about 60 damage. 120 damage if casted twice per round.

ON THE TOPIC OF IGMS: Maximized IGMS casted twice per round does 240 damage. You can outheal that and then some by simply mindlessly chugging heal potions until they run out of spells. Furthermore, SF abjuration and shield potions are easily attainable for immunity.

A MEELE BUILD'S DAMAGE IN COMPARISON: Melee builds frequently can achieve up to 50-80 damage per hit and crit for 110-200+ damage per hit at 5-6 APR. They SIGNIFICANTLY outdamage Sorcerers and Wizards unless they neglect to dispose of their summons, which they can readily do with a single scroll.

DUE TO ALL OF THE ABOVE, each of you should be a lot less worried about +1 spell per level on Sorcerer, and a little more worried about the melee build that can dish out 600-700 damage in a single round.

The OP's suggestion of an additional spell per level offers mere quality of life customization to a currently underplayed, unpopular class that has been shoved out of the meta due to far too many passes with the nerf-hammer.

It will not break sorcerer or make it overpowered. Relax.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 02, 2023 10:40 pm

There's also the Discipline issue, which involves the majority of spellcaster classes - be it Cleric, True Soul, Druid, Invoker, Sorc or Wiz, they MUST dip 3 levels to get Discipline, effectively reducing their CL while forcing them to miss out on class features and making them more vulnerable to dispels.

So the choice is often between exposing the build to KD or exposing it to dispels.

On Arelith it's easier to dispel an optimally built 27/3 mage than it is to dispel a 25/5 muggle, which is hilarious.

Every single optimal build maxes Discipline. It's an essential skill that one does not leave home without and very much like Lore it should be a class skill for ALL classes - or rather, those classes that don't have it aren't viable for pure 30 lvl builds.

Which is really awkward because there are real incentives for arcanists to go pure 30 lvls - be it the ability to pierce spell resistance, epic caster bonus on summons or spells that scale up to lvl 28 (like Flame Arrow or NE Burst for example). Invokers even get full Enschew and Wild Mages get perfect Fatidical Manipulation at lvl 28, but these are all practically non-existant because one simply does not build without Discipline.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Tue May 02, 2023 10:58 pm

I have known and had multiple non-disc chars in my own faction; and they were very successful; Xalyth was a 30 wildmage wizard who at the time could kill any weapons master in the game via melee combat. 30 Wildmage wrathful castigation and crit immunity are still useful to skilled players— Xalyth existed before the Knockdown nerfs and Beldrin Xun’viir before the 25/5 Nerfs — both players were very talented and successful.

I think if is more the fact that there are a lot of fighters that weigh it toward knockdown and the fact that the setup is annoying. The meta shifts because of environment and what others enjoy playing as often as what is actually balanced or unbalanced… because the two wildmages listed above were certainly imbalanced and overpowered at the time of their play.

It removes choice— Pretty sure high Disc is still possible on a mage build: but you have to make choices people don’t wanna make for gear and stats.

16 cross class + 5 (pre-epic skill focus) +18 (all items, staff, offhand - pikers included) + 6 STR from gearing and zoo buffs — 45 disc is equal to the penalty of the knockdown attack on the first swing and superior against secondary attacks just from items off the top of my head without an old beast belt or anything cross class. 30 hitpoints from maxing con on a wizard or sorc will not save you more than the higher disc will.

The problem is it is obscenely counter intuitive to build. It doesn’t “feel” good - but people doing this nonsense did rack up kills and insane successes — I am not sure sorcerer is meant to go 30 though — which differentiates it from wildmage.

I feel like it is an objective statement to say sorcerer is better than (non-wild) wizards and I know of 3 or 4 off the top of my head in Andunor— though they and most wizards besides Drik and Zayd have not been active in a bit.

In spite of the meta being full of their counters, I still feel wizard and sorc with hasted level 27 mordis and mass haste are THE game winner against a team of equal size relying on warlocks and potion haste.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Wed May 03, 2023 12:17 am, edited 17 times in total.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue May 02, 2023 11:03 pm

Have there been recent statistics for how many sorcerers there currently are?


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Wed May 03, 2023 12:18 am

dominantdrowess wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:58 pm

16 cross class + 5 (pre-epic skill focus) +18 (all items, staff, offhand - pikers included) + 6 STR from gearing and zoo buffs — 45 disc is equal to the penalty of the knockdown attack on the first swing and superior against secondary attacks just from items off the top of my head without an old beast belt or anything cross class.

I've actually tried 50 disc - it's not good. In theory it should put you at coin-toss odds vs. a medium-sized opponent that's using just KD (which isn't great to begin with - it's like saying "you'll be fine running around with 28 fort save"), but IKD exists, large races exist - all that can reduce your 45 disc down to 37 vs. AB 48 ...and we've not even considered true strike yet.
In the current meta 60 disc barely cuts it - and that's impossible with cross-classing since ESF:Disc requires 20 hard ranks to take.

dominantdrowess wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:58 pm

I have known and had multiple non-disc chars in my own faction; and they were very successful; Xalyth was a 30 wildmage wizard who at the time could kill any weapons master in the game via melee combat. 30 Wildmage wrathful castigation and crit immunity are still useful to skilled players— Xalyth existed before the Knockdown nerfs and Beldrin Xun’viir before the 25/5 Nerfs — both players were very talented.

KD nerfs happened with the Loremageddon. A lot has changed since then - while I'm sure these players are good, I doubt that the builds they were using back then would still work that well now. Also, if I recall correctly there had been an easily accessible discipline boon in the UD that's been changed only a lot later - that might have affected some build decisions a little.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Wed May 03, 2023 12:20 am

-XXX- wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 12:18 am

KD nerfs happened with the Loremageddon. A lot has changed since then - while I'm sure these players are good, I doubt that the builds they were using back then would still work that well now. Also, if I recall correctly there had been an easily accessible discipline boon in the UD that's been changed only a lot later - that might have affected some build decisions a little.

FOIG Boon still 100% works too. (My char gets it regularly) Esoteric loooore. Stacks with above disc build and was not included in my easy gear math. So stacks higher. And goes higher than that with rare but still lootable gear. 15% more successful KD resist from your earlier cointoss with boon alone in the basic basin gear (65% KD immune - if they drink truestrike - waddle away)

Zoo and gearing STR dweomers bonuses to disc cannot be breached by a WM with mordi gems except at like 5% chance if at all on wizard zoo to cap their STR I think?

Putting a basic char against a reward race is NEVER a fair exercise for the human/drow/whatever in any of the math when those guys are used optimally. This logic eventually extends into giant casters with size bonus to discipline checks. You also are not comparing giants to giants or reward races to reward races — putting a drow WM against a vampire WM is auto death for one of those two nerds and we know which it is.

Pretty sure a mage can become 75% non true strike KD immune with just 2 points more disc and the boon after the basic basin gear from drops in loot table. Nobody — not even giants — are fully immune. What do you consider balanced? 80%?

I ask so I can understand and appreciate the arguement. Giving sorc disc as a class skill (15/16 more disc) raises it from 75% to over 100% very fast. d20 system at work. I have advocated for it in the past but people showed me the math because a sorcerer who can cast in your face with divine shield and KD immunity via combat casting feels bad. Especially if the behavior and disc gearing is later mirrored in a crit immune wildmage who cannot be interrupted. (And I find Wildmage to be iconic and central to Arelith’s lore and personality!)

Class potential is very much shackled by what can be combined with it and other classes that share related spells and features, where they already beat out wizards in most of the same party and PvP functions.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Wed May 03, 2023 1:30 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed May 03, 2023 1:11 am

Drethian wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 9:47 pm

Giving sorcerer +1 spell per level will neither break the class or make it overpowered.
It will only give it the bare minimum versatility it needs to utilize its spell focuses.

Sorcerers have a pitifully small quantity of spells that that they can memorize at each level.

Most of these must be dedicated to memorizing mandatory spells that every caster must take, after which: You're left with virtually no room for customization to speak of whatsoever.

If a sorcerer bothers with spell focuses at all (aside from abjuration), they quickly discover that they have very little room to actually select DC spells that utilize their spell foci, unless they're willing to make huge, very punishing sacrifices to their build.

Sorcerer is so egregiously unpopular that any sorcerer you spot in-game may as well be called a unicorn. That in itself speaks to the current, sad state of the class.

It has been heavily nerfed, even more so than other DC casters. And in its current state, it is not the game-breakingly terrifying monster people make it out to be. Giving it an additional spell per level would not make it such.

Divine sorcerer has already been specifically targeted with significant nerfs, particularly to its AC: Its primary defensive attribute against melees. Its AC is nowhere near untouchable or overpowered at current. Hence why even divine sorcerers are unpopular unicorns in the current meta.

  • A 26/4 or 27/3 divine sorcerer right now can self buff 55 AC with EMA, divine shield, haste, mage armor, shadow shield, and cat's grace (x2) with a base dexterity of 8, which is standard. You can shove your AC up to 56 with a red ioun stone and 57 if you rune your gear for +2 dexterity. And if you manage to fit armor skin into the build (at the cost of either Hellball, GR, an Epic Spell Focus, or the mandatory feats of ESF Disc + ESF Concentration) then you can push it to 59 at great sacrifice to your build.
  • To put this into perspective, the average melee strength build is walking around with 51-52 AB not including true strike or buffs from their party members. Self-buffed, they need to roll a 7 or higher to hit 59 AC without truestrike, which is absolutely trivial.

Sorcerers should be the least of your concern. DC casters are not the top of the food chain in 2023 Arelith.

All DC casters on Arelith have been the recipient of extensive nerfs to their offensive capability (both their DC spells and their summons). It's WM and Rogue summer, not DC Sorcerer/Wizard summer.

Reason #1: Spellcraft now applies versus all spells (including 9th level)

  • This is the bandaid that made it so that even classes that traditionally get horrifically bad saves (ex: Weapon Master) can now achieve practically untouchable, spell-impervious saves with a mere bit of gearing investment and spellcraft dump.
  • Before this change, melee builds had to attentively ensure they kept up their death ward, clarity/mind blank, and freedom. Where as now, if you know what you're doing, you can safely run at a mage without using any of the three, knowing your +6 to +16 unisaves from spellcraft will compensate for what might otherwise be one of your build's most significant weaknesses.
  • Normally in NWN, it was the paladins, blackguards, and CoTs who were the most feared anti-mage melee builds in the game (barring SR monks) because their saves were so high that they simply could not be hard CC'd with DC spells. Now, virtually any melee build can boast that title if they but gear a little bit for saves and skill-dump into spellcraft.
  • The only builds that still have bad saves versus spells in the current meta are ones played by people who either do not care, or whom have been grossly negligent in their gearing.

Reason #2: Sequencers no longer protect summons from dismissal via SR or Mantles.

Due to this change, anyone with access to Word of Faith, Banishment, or Dismissal scrolls - or the spells themselves) can instantly remove a mage's summons from the battlefield with minimal effort. Which means they're dismissible by just about everyone.

IN SUMMARY:

DUE TO THE SPELLCRAFT CHANGES:

  • High 30s to low 40s universal saves are now easily achievable by most anyone who makes the effort, no matter how saves-deprived their build might normally be.
  • Consequently, properly-built melee builds are now nearly impossible to hard CC or pin down with DC spells, which is enormously bad news for the average 390-420 HP DC caster.
  • Traditionally low saves melee builds are no longer low saves builds, as they once were, because they readily have access to up to +16 universal saves via spellcraft. (33 base, +2 on 11 items = 66 spellcraft = 13 to all saves. For those who really try, add SF + ESF for 3 more for a total of +16 to unisaves.)
  • Bad saves versus spells now only exist if a player is simply grossly negligent, uncaring, or incompetent.
  • Competent players will always stat even their weaponmasters to be virtually immune to DC spells.

DUE TO THE SUMMON CHANGES: Barring built-in resistances to WoF/Banishment/Dismissal, summons are a non-factor in PvP against competent players. They cannot be relied upon for viability in PvP.

ON THE TOPIC OF AN EVOKER'S POSSIBLE DAMAGE OUTPUT: Most evocation damage spells are reflex save for half, which means about 60 damage. 120 damage if casted twice per round.

ON THE TOPIC OF IGMS: Maximized IGMS casted twice per round does 240 damage. You can outheal that and then some by simply mindlessly chugging heal potions until they run out of spells. Furthermore, SF abjuration and shield potions are easily attainable for immunity.

A MEELE BUILD'S DAMAGE IN COMPARISON: Melee builds frequently can achieve up to 50-80 damage per hit and crit for 110-200+ damage per hit at 5-6 APR. They SIGNIFICANTLY outdamage Sorcerers and Wizards unless they neglect to dispose of their summons, which they can readily do with a single scroll.

DUE TO ALL OF THE ABOVE, each of you should be a lot less worried about +1 spell per level on Sorcerer, and a little more worried about the melee build that can dish out 600-700 damage in a single round.

The OP's suggestion of an additional spell per level offers mere quality of life customization to a currently underplayed, unpopular class that has been shoved out of the meta due to far too many passes with the nerf-hammer.

It will not break sorcerer or make it overpowered. Relax.

Heal potions have been nerfed some, but besides that this little blue man is spot on.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Wed May 03, 2023 1:19 am

“Heal potions have been nerfed some, but besides that this little blue man is spot on.”

As I said right before you post: Class potential is very much shackled by what can be combined with it and other classes that share related spells and features, where they already beat out wizards in most of the same party and PvP functions.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Wed May 03, 2023 1:54 am

dominantdrowess wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 12:20 am

Pretty sure a mage can become 75% non true strike KD immune with just 2 points more disc and the boon after the basic basin gear. Nobody — not even giants — are fully immune. What do you consider balanced? 80%?

Your question is nonsensical - if I asked you what saves on a WM would you have considered to be fair and balanced, you'd have probably said "on par with the DC lvl 9 spells". Which is precisely what current optimal builds and gear do.

As I already stated ALL current optimal builds also aim for maxed stats including discipline - even optimally built wizards and sorcerers get 70 discipline.

The only difference here being that they must dip for it which represents considerable concessions on their part once we consider their primary class gimmick. You don't see melee builds making any concessions for achieving optimal stats - most of them comfortably achieve 50AB, 55AC, 36 saves and 30CL vs dispel.

In other words, while ALL optimal builds aim for optimal stats, only spellcaster builds are required to shoot themselves in the foot for doing so and there's no justification for that.
I mean... drethian's spot on - perfectly outlines the state of wizard and sorcerer classes and stuff like this only makes the builds more awkward and counter-intuitive.


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