Sorcerer

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:08 pm

The problem with sorc is it's too good at being a turret, and every time this conversation comes up people talk about how good it is at being a turret, saying it doesn't need anything.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:42 pm

Well, I would counter that by saying two things. One, more flexibility probably wouldn't affect that. And while the notion that wizards would definitely become the suboptimal choice as a result is 100% correct, that's more a statement on where wizards are right now than whether or not it would break the game.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:00 pm

After playing infinicasters I can definitely say the faster pace of gameplay is a lot more compelling and I would even go as far as to say that playing a class that doesn't have a means of supplying sustainable damage doesn't appeal to me anymore.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:41 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

Not sure what you stating, though I am interested to learn. Can you please explain in detail the negative effects Infinite casting has caused up to this point? I don't honestly have much experience with any Infitnite casting builds, so I would enjoy a chance to learn.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by perseid » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:50 pm

I can't speak to Sorcerer but I've played a Wizard for a good length of time and tbh while I do think infinicasters have it nice in that they never have to rest but... I rarely care? The state of minions as it stands is such that I see it more as differing gameplay styles where the vancian casters feel more methodical but no less able. I do understand not everyone who plays a vancian caster wants to sit behind minions and focus on augmenting the group or only casting in rapid bursts when things go awry or pvp breaks out. Yet to be honest I think it's good there's at least a few classes that effectively facilitate the minionmancer and burst-centric archetypes (yes I'm aware there's some very blasty infinicasters atm but I'm talking about the styles encouraged by the resource systems). My one concern would be that, because the vancian system emphasizes getting as much value as possible out of its preparations, there should probably be a concious effort to keep an eye on things like infinicasters with comparable minions to their vancian counterparts or infinicasters with access to essential buffs like Mass Haste since these in my opinion are what eat my Wizard lunch the most often.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:00 pm

perseid wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:50 pm

I can't speak to Sorcerer but I've played a Wizard for a good length of time and tbh while I do think infinicasters have it nice in that they never have to rest but... I rarely care? The state of minions as it stands is such that I see it more as differing gameplay styles where the vancian casters feel more methodical but no less able. I do understand not everyone who plays a vancian caster wants to sit behind minions and focus on augmenting the group or only casting in rapid bursts when things go awry or pvp breaks out. Yet to be honest I think it's good there's at least a few classes that effectively facilitate the minionmancer and burst-centric archetypes (yes I'm aware there's some very blasty infinicasters atm but I'm talking about the styles encouraged by the resource systems). My one concern would be that, because the vancian system emphasizes getting as much value as possible out of its preparations, there should probably be a concious effort to keep an eye on things like infinicasters with comparable minions to their vancian counterparts or infinicasters with access to essential buffs like Mass Haste since these in my opinion are what eat my Wizard lunch the most often.

While most summoner classes work with the same basic summon templates, they are not equal in how they can further buff their summons - this is a major distinction that translates into how well the summons perform in PvE and how passive a vancian summoner can afford to be while conserving their precious spell slots.

Wizards get 4 more pre-epic feats than Sorcerers do. That means they can afford to take more spell foci, while a Sorcerer gets only two (one of which is likely going to be Evocation, because the class is pretty much being shoehorned into it ATM) if they want metamagic feats (which they really really do).

In practice it often means that while both get empower spell, only the wizard can afford to take transmu foci. Furthermore the wizard gets a full complement of mass ZOO spells whereas the sorcerer can maybe afford to take one. On top of that, the Wizard can also be an enchantment specialist who can bestow +4 AB/Damage on their summons with good hope.

Do both get antfrogs? Sure! But the Sorcerer's one have 46 AB and 54 AC while hasted. The wizard can push theirs to 50 AB and 58 AC with a lot more HP and DPS.

Point being, the comparison between a Wizard and a Sorcerer isn't a very good one here, because as has already been mentioned the vancian spell list strongly favours buffs over instanteous effects - i.e. buff pets and let them do all the work.
The Wizard is still probably the best template for that playstyle while the Sorcerer gives all that up on account of being able to spam Isaac's a little better. This might make these classes seem comparable while messing around in PGCC, but once taken to Arelith live (where 90% of gameplay experience for most players is going to be PvE) the difference becomes apparent.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by perseid » Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:30 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:00 pm
perseid wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:50 pm

I can't speak to Sorcerer but I've played a Wizard for a good length of time and tbh while I do think infinicasters have it nice in that they never have to rest but... I rarely care? The state of minions as it stands is such that I see it more as differing gameplay styles where the vancian casters feel more methodical but no less able. I do understand not everyone who plays a vancian caster wants to sit behind minions and focus on augmenting the group or only casting in rapid bursts when things go awry or pvp breaks out. Yet to be honest I think it's good there's at least a few classes that effectively facilitate the minionmancer and burst-centric archetypes (yes I'm aware there's some very blasty infinicasters atm but I'm talking about the styles encouraged by the resource systems). My one concern would be that, because the vancian system emphasizes getting as much value as possible out of its preparations, there should probably be a concious effort to keep an eye on things like infinicasters with comparable minions to their vancian counterparts or infinicasters with access to essential buffs like Mass Haste since these in my opinion are what eat my Wizard lunch the most often.

While most summoner classes work with the same basic summon templates, they are not equal in how they can further buff their summons - this is a major distinction that translates into how well the summons perform in PvE and how passive a vancian summoner can afford to be while conserving their precious spell slots.

Wizards get 4 more pre-epic feats than Sorcerers do. That means they can afford to take more spell foci, while a Sorcerer gets only two (one of which is likely going to be Evocation, because the class is pretty much being shoehorned into it ATM) if they want metamagic feats (which they really really do).

In practice it often means that while both get empower spell, only the wizard can afford to take transmu foci. Furthermore the wizard gets a full complement of mass ZOO spells whereas the sorcerer can maybe afford to take one. On top of that, the Wizard can also be an enchantment specialist who can bestow +4 AB/Damage on their summons with good hope.

Do both get antfrogs? Sure! But the Sorcerer's one have 46 AB and 54 AC while hasted. The wizard can push theirs to 50 AB and 58 AC with a lot more HP and DPS.

Point being, the comparison between a Wizard and a Sorcerer isn't a very good one here, because as has already been mentioned the vancian spell list strongly favours buffs over instanteous effects - i.e. buff pets and let them do all the work.
The Wizard is still probably the best template for that playstyle while the Sorcerer gives all that up on account of being able to spam Isaac's a little better. This might make these classes seem comparable while messing around in PGCC, but once taken to Arelith live (where 90% of gameplay experience for most players is going to be PvE) the difference becomes apparent.

My point was less that each vancian caster is or should be broadly equivalent so much as that I think as long as each is allowed to excel to some degree above infinicasters at the kinds of things encouraged by vancian casting then I don't think infinicasters are actually problematic. A Sorcerer is a decent burst caster and I'd argue should be the bar for "Are the infinicaster blasters better than this when bursting?". That they're not as versatile as a Wizard isn't really an issue in my opinion when narrow versaility is arguably the hallmark of the class compared to their wizarding counterparts. A wizard on the other hand, as you noted, /is/ the better minionmancer chasis overall and I think that's fine but would be more concerned with if there was an equivalently good infinicasting minionmancer.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:09 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

t. sorcerer, better known for other work.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:36 am

perseid wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:30 pm

My point was less that each vancian caster is or should be broadly equivalent so much as that I think as long as each is allowed to excel to some degree above infinicasters.

An elementalist gets IGMS, Hellball and Greater Ruin.
They need to scroll Timestop and Mord, but get Elemental Annihilation (which actually often plays out as a more potent second Hellball).
They don't get mass ZOO at all but get infinite mass haste.

And there we have it - an infinicaster superior turret that the Sorcerer really excels over only in having +3 AB/dmg on their antfrogs.

^ and the Elementalist is arguably the less pushed Invoker.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:37 pm

Sorcerer has G.sanc, Cloudkill and more useful pvp cheese that Invoker doesnt have. Sorc is tedious to play and level compared to invoker but it still has the upperhand in terms of power ceiling.

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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by MRFTW » Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:39 pm

Sorc is significantly less fun than both warlock and invoker to play, which in itself is a reason to take a look at it. Sorc probably shakes out a bit better in PvP if both are handled by a good player, but Warlock has QoL in spades and invoker is pretty neat, too.

I think divine shield AC can and should go, but dark blessing and its equivalents shouldn't really need to. Capping saves isn't an issue, with or without it. This would open up Hexblade, Ranger, Pal, BG, Vigi, Liberator and more to be viable dips for the sorc, depending on how you wanted to go about managing your skills vs saves.

I don't think you can stop 27/3 being the default easily, but the same can be said for wizards and clerics, too. Shaman has been successfully separated, but it has made the class significantly more complicated to build at the same time. I do think the shaman CL scaling and multiclassibility is very well executed and makes it incredibly fun to design a character around.

I think it's a shame that a lot of classes are gated by lack of discipline, and I think there's a conversation to be had regarding discipline being a class skill for every class, but I think that would be better served as a separate thread.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Two for the Rogues » Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:55 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:37 pm

Sorcerer has G.sanc, Cloudkill and more useful pvp cheese that Invoker doesnt have. Sorc is tedious to play and level compared to invoker but it still has the upperhand in terms of power ceiling.

No. No it doesn't. After you WoF the sorc's summons, the sorc has no real way of bursting you down. IGMS only works if you're CC'd, and in the current year the only reason you get CC'd is because your gear is incomplete. Otherwise, you can sustain straight through the IGMS casts with healing potions. Invoker actually has the spells to deal extreme quantities of damage at the drop of a hat, and can take a jumpsneaking dip (monk for elementalist, specialist for hemo) if you're genuinely terrified of playing a mage without timestop/gsanc.

I feel like a lot of you guys are living in the past: where Keen MD was the best weapon a melee could get, where spellcraft was conditional about which spells it respected, and where runes didn't exist. Sorc is currently a glorified mord's bot in serious encounters, and it's a mord's bot that is tedious, one-dimensional, and flat-out boring to play to level 30. The most insulting part of this is that, for the most part, there's nothing you need to hit with more than 1-2 casts of Mord's: unless they're super committed to the breachlist padding, you'd be doing just the same and not expending spell components to greater dispel them once you've removed the breachables. It's hard to overstate exactly how badly the class has been crippled by making Mind Fog, Bigby's, Great Thunderclap, and a couple of other spells respect spellcraft: giving all prepared players an extra 4-6+ bonus saves vs them. This is great for uniformity's sake, but leaves the class hollow and toothless compared to what it once was. Due to the limited nature of Sorcerer's spellbook, it was comparatively easy to fit these spells and specialize in them. Now that this has been removed, what niche is left? Counterspelling?

Spellsword is the best mage class right now (myopically and perhaps arbitrarily restricted to "sorcerer, wizard, and spellsword": comparisons to invoker and warlock will come a bit later), because "no summoning" is currently not a particularly big drawback, and mages were balanced around having sticky antfrogs in PvP in the absence of threatening DCs or major burst damage. Spellsword is the only mord thrower that has a consistent source of damage after the obligatory WoF opening removes all summons afield, and as such is the only mage that isn't relegated to support duty.

Wizard is the best support in the game, by and large, and is in a lousy spot for anything except supporting. That said, a transmutation wizard with mass zoo spells, or an enchanter with Good Hope will always be immensely valuable to a party. They're in as lousy of a spot as sorcerer balance-wise: they're kept alive by easy PvE, lots of feats, and a huge amount of versatility in terms of the buffs they have access to.

Sorcerer is in the twilight zone. Its extremely limited spell roster has prevented any new spells from entering their standard rotation, leaving the class feeling the same way it did when I played one on 1.69. The steady power creep of new gear, runic items and runes in general, and the addition of high-quality endgame items have bolstered saves across the board to the detriment of all DC casters. This has disproportionately affected the sorcerer, which has to pick 1-2 saves to attack and which lacks much of the no-save slow/blind spells that prepared magi can call upon.

Similarly, I don't buy the argument that this is a spontaneous caster issue. Shaman is one of the strongest classes on the server, and Favored Soul has very formidable battle and caster variations. Each of these classes get an extra +1 spell per circle over sorcerer.

Very little of the above is addressed by +1 spell per circle. It offers a slight boost in mechanical power, insofar as it allows them to more accurately retain the percentage of memorized spells per circle (which is why I consider SPELLMAGEDDON to be an indirect sorcerer nerf via adding a bunch of spells they have no room for), but Sorcerer already has the best spells on every school. I listed them in the OP. On 9, they're the only spells you get. On 6, you have to cut at least a couple useful spells.

Adding a bunch of spells and then not adjusting the quantity per level that affected spontaneous casters can take will hamstring spontaneous casters relative to prepared ones by offering prepared classes a much greater breadth and depth of spell choice, while sorcerers sit and cope with ye olde IGMS and Mord's.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:28 pm

763 words of complaining about a class and only regarding the negative impacts it received from updates without a single word about the change to successful save rolls (which still lower your saves down to a floor of 35).

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Aren » Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:11 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:28 pm

763 words of complaining about a class...

You're usually better than that, Astral.

As to your point:
You realise that the aforementioned classes (invoker paths) get infinite spells, right? Thus utilizing this particular mechanic much better than a Sorcerer.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:38 pm

Aren wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:11 pm

You're usually better than that, Astral.

I appreciate it and I'm genuinely sorry to disappoint, Aren.

Anyway, please dont buff sorcerer with more than QoL. We didnt buff sorcerer back in the Weave master days even tho almost no one played sorcerer, because it was still higher in the powercreep. It has enough spells for pretty lengthy fights and a much wider selection than invoker. As I've said, I'd welcome QoL.

EDIT: Also, to address your point as well, the fact that inficasters execute this mechanic better than sorc/wizard is an inficasting problem and not a problem with how saves and DC spells are balanced imo, but Sorcerer does it just fine and has a good spell selection to backup more strategies than the more narrow spell selection of invoker who lacks some pretty important mage spells as we've established.

Last edited by AstralUniverse on Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Svrtr » Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:40 pm

Two for the Rogues wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:55 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:37 pm

Sorcerer has G.sanc, Cloudkill and more useful pvp cheese that Invoker doesnt have. Sorc is tedious to play and level compared to invoker but it still has the upperhand in terms of power ceiling.

Similarly, I don't buy the argument that this is a spontaneous caster issue. Shaman is one of the strongest classes on the server, and Favored Soul has very formidable battle and caster variations. Each of these classes get an extra +1 spell per circle over sorcerer.

While I more or less agree with approximately 70-80% of what you said, I will just add that I don't think shaman anywhere near deserves the title of "one of the strongest classes on the server". Its cozy for sure, but caster shaman is just a matter of being like a wis caster with mass haste and AoV who if they spend the feats for transmutation can be a tad bit better as a summoner than evange cleric by virtue of mass haste, but whose actual spellbook suffers for options of use to cast offensively.

Comparatively, melee shaman has worse AC, AB, damage, attack progression, and fewer epic feats than battle cleric or battle fvs, especially as to even approximate being an ok martial it needs to go transmutation, but relying on transmutation for gearing means they lose that much more to dispels. Their damage becomes approximately equal when using a 2h weapon, but then they lose the offhand stat stick of a shield, its associated AC, and on top even with uncanny dodge from barb when flatfooted they lose more AC to flatfoot than cleric/fvs.

Shaman is cozy and enjoyable with its CL scaling bonuses, but it certainly isn't that strong. Its strongest version is a monk dip caster shaman just because it can get good AC hovering around 61, the same as elementalist or hemomancer, but without the stronger spellbook that both have and once more being relegated to a summoner with AoV and mass haste but where their AoV requires ESF trans to be of a decent duration when comparatively wizard with mass zoo spells has the same value of +4 without feat investment and at hours per level, its cost being that it needs 3 slots (one per physical stat) instead of 1.

As for sorc, its boring. Its good at what it does, but what it does isn't enjoyable for the one playing it nor the one playing against it. I am of a mind where giving it a re-work and a form of bloodline paths akin to elementalist and seeing div sorc done away with is immensely heavy handed and arguably unfair to existing div sorcs, but at this rate for the best


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:26 pm

Two for the Rogues wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:55 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:37 pm

Sorcerer has G.sanc, Cloudkill and more useful pvp cheese that Invoker doesnt have. Sorc is tedious to play and level compared to invoker but it still has the upperhand in terms of power ceiling.

No. No it doesn't. After you WoF the sorc's summons, the sorc has no real way of bursting you down. IGMS only works if you're CC'd, and in the current year the only reason you get CC'd is because your gear is incomplete. Otherwise, you can sustain straight through the IGMS casts with healing potions. Invoker actually has the spells to deal extreme quantities of damage at the drop of a hat, and can take a jumpsneaking dip (monk for elementalist, specialist for hemo) if you're genuinely terrified of playing a mage without timestop/gsanc.

I feel like a lot of you guys are living in the past: where Keen MD was the best weapon a melee could get, where spellcraft was conditional about which spells it respected, and where runes didn't exist. Sorc is currently a glorified mord's bot in serious encounters, and it's a mord's bot that is tedious, one-dimensional, and flat-out boring to play to level 30. The most insulting part of this is that, for the most part, there's nothing you need to hit with more than 1-2 casts of Mord's: unless they're super committed to the breachlist padding, you'd be doing just the same and not expending spell components to greater dispel them once you've removed the breachables. It's hard to overstate exactly how badly the class has been crippled by making Mind Fog, Bigby's, Great Thunderclap, and a couple of other spells respect spellcraft: giving all prepared players an extra 4-6+ bonus saves vs them. This is great for uniformity's sake, but leaves the class hollow and toothless compared to what it once was. Due to the limited nature of Sorcerer's spellbook, it was comparatively easy to fit these spells and specialize in them. Now that this has been removed, what niche is left? Counterspelling?

Spellsword is the best mage class right now (myopically and perhaps arbitrarily restricted to "sorcerer, wizard, and spellsword": comparisons to invoker and warlock will come a bit later), because "no summoning" is currently not a particularly big drawback, and mages were balanced around having sticky antfrogs in PvP in the absence of threatening DCs or major burst damage. Spellsword is the only mord thrower that has a consistent source of damage after the obligatory WoF opening removes all summons afield, and as such is the only mage that isn't relegated to support duty.

Wizard is the best support in the game, by and large, and is in a lousy spot for anything except supporting. That said, a transmutation wizard with mass zoo spells, or an enchanter with Good Hope will always be immensely valuable to a party. They're in as lousy of a spot as sorcerer balance-wise: they're kept alive by easy PvE, lots of feats, and a huge amount of versatility in terms of the buffs they have access to.

Sorcerer is in the twilight zone. Its extremely limited spell roster has prevented any new spells from entering their standard rotation, leaving the class feeling the same way it did when I played one on 1.69. The steady power creep of new gear, runic items and runes in general, and the addition of high-quality endgame items have bolstered saves across the board to the detriment of all DC casters. This has disproportionately affected the sorcerer, which has to pick 1-2 saves to attack and which lacks much of the no-save slow/blind spells that prepared magi can call upon.

Similarly, I don't buy the argument that this is a spontaneous caster issue. Shaman is one of the strongest classes on the server, and Favored Soul has very formidable battle and caster variations. Each of these classes get an extra +1 spell per circle over sorcerer.

Very little of the above is addressed by +1 spell per circle. It offers a slight boost in mechanical power, insofar as it allows them to more accurately retain the percentage of memorized spells per circle (which is why I consider SPELLMAGEDDON to be an indirect sorcerer nerf via adding a bunch of spells they have no room for), but Sorcerer already has the best spells on every school. I listed them in the OP. On 9, they're the only spells you get. On 6, you have to cut at least a couple useful spells.

Adding a bunch of spells and then not adjusting the quantity per level that affected spontaneous casters can take will hamstring spontaneous casters relative to prepared ones by offering prepared classes a much greater breadth and depth of spell choice, while sorcerers sit and cope with ye olde IGMS and Mord's.

Well said.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:11 pm

Svrtr wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:40 pm

As for sorc, its boring. Its good at what it does, but what it does isn't enjoyable for the one playing it nor the one playing against it. I am of a mind where giving it a re-work and a form of bloodline paths akin to elementalist and seeing div sorc done away with is immensely heavy handed and arguably unfair to existing div sorcs, but at this rate for the best

Is it really good at what it does though? An average optimized build has around 500 hp. The evo combo (which the Sorcerer is currently ALL about - the class is a one trick pony) deals around the same amount of damage, so at first glance it might seem like it can one-shot people, but...
...this couldn't be farther away from the truth, because once we account for -prays and greater resto, we might realize that to bring down an optimized build one actually needs to deal around 1500 damage and we've not even gotten to heal potions/mass heal scroll yet (or some other more specific stuff like lay on hands and second wind).

And that's just regarding PvP while completely disregarding other aspects of the game - the question here remains whether it's justified to let everything about the class suck just because it can do something that once USED to be good in PvP (and whether that even applies anymore still remains debatable).

I mean... c'mon, if sorcerers are such a powerhouse, then where are they hiding?


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:49 pm

Just going to put this out there...

From commentary I've seen, I'm probably playing the only sorcerer on the server who doesn't have ESF Evo and also doesn't have a divine dip. If you don't do one of these, you're basically a mass haste dispenser.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Svrtr » Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:33 am

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:11 pm
Svrtr wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:40 pm

As for sorc, its boring. Its good at what it does, but what it does isn't enjoyable for the one playing it nor the one playing against it. I am of a mind where giving it a re-work and a form of bloodline paths akin to elementalist and seeing div sorc done away with is immensely heavy handed and arguably unfair to existing div sorcs, but at this rate for the best

I mean... c'mon, if sorcerers are such a powerhouse, then where are they hiding?

Same place as pure 30 hexblades.

Indescribably potent in what it does, singular in how good it is at what it does, and likewise one of the most boring leveling experiences I have had to date.


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Kuma
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Kuma » Thu Apr 27, 2023 3:08 am

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:06 pm
Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

I dunno what that even means, but:

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:41 pm

Not sure what you stating, though I am interested to learn.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:04 pm

This is a very exciting to read paragraph, but I'm having trouble determining what it means.

i was shitposting about the unabomber

sorc is dull and overly restrictive with spell selection, adding an extra spell known per level will let some people take utility and flavour spells

doesn't need bloodlines or god forbid paths

just a lil nudge to help them compete with other options

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:35 am

The "Sorcerer is too powerful" crowd is worried about the potential spell selection it would have if it were given +1 spells per level.

The "Sorcerer needs it" crowd just wants more options.

I think it's safe to say we could find a middle ground.

Sorcerer Bloodlines
At level 2, select a Bloodline as a bonus feat.
Each bloodline gives a free spell per spell level for the Sorcerer to cast. The spell is determined by Bloodline. And naturally, the Sorcerer can only choose one bloodline.

Each bloodline could also provide a small passive benefit. As an example, Draconic bloodline might add a +2 vs fear saves. Whatever the team decides, if any.

This solution, I feel, would give sorcerers more of a choice, while not giving them completely too much power. The bonus spell per spell level added is from a selection based on your bloodline, and thus it's manageable in terms of power level, while still kept fun.


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-XXX-
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Thu Apr 27, 2023 5:32 am

Svrtr wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:33 am

Same place as pure 30 hexblades.

Indescribably potent in what it does, singular in how good it is at what it does, and likewise one of the most boring leveling experiences I have had to date.

Apples and oranges.
Hexblade is a melee class - one can dip it for dark blessing or incorporate it into a melee build, it does even have warlock synergies for hideous blow builds - I'm not saying that any of these are S-tier optimal build decisions, but they won't result in a dysfunctional character build.
Sorcerer is a caster class with low AB progression - its multiclassing options are extremely limited by the way CL calculation works.

And "indescribably potent" sounds like a hyperbole here:
PvP: The evo combo isn't THAT good - it's safe to say that the PvP meta has moved past this (1). Which isn't a complaint - it's actually better that way, but the sorcerer has very little else going for it.
PvE: The sorcerer is a very poor summon/party buffer and when reduced to the role of a mass haste dispenser it's not even great at that by the virtue of having a vancian spell list in a world where haste and mass haste infinicasters exist.


(1) between 5/- DR from protective essences 5% DI from the headband of protection and 1/- DR from the shield spell potion ANY build can passively shave off 80 damage from any incoming evo combo, putting it into a ballpark of 420 damage (which might still seem like a big scary number, but it really isn't).

Kuma wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 3:08 am

doesn't need bloodlines or god forbid paths

just a lil nudge to help them compete with other options

But why? It's one of the iconic core D&D classes that new players often pick. Those should be intuitive and fun with some degree of customization - the Sorcerer is neither atm.

Also, we could've made the same statement about the Cleric a while ago and look at it now.

Last edited by -XXX- on Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Helsing » Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:22 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

Agreed, having both finite caster and infinate caster in same game and balance only pvp just leave the finite casters totally boring to play in PvE. Never a fan of infinite caster in a dnd game where every other class has rest based spell replenish system.

Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Hazard » Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:49 pm

Helsing wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:22 pm
Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

Agreed, having both finite caster and infinate caster in same game and balance only pvp just leave the finite casters totally boring to play in PvE. Never a fan of infinite caster in a dnd game where every other class has rest based spell replenish system.

Everything this person said is correct, especially what's in their bio.


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