Sorcerer

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Amateur Hour
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed May 03, 2023 2:08 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 11:03 pm

Have there been recent statistics for how many sorcerers there currently are?

I'd be most interested in finding out - if it's even possible to calculate - how many sorcerers are out there actively doing combat-y things other than PvP. A group can definitely drag even the worst-in-show build up to 30 kicking and screaming and have the character meander around with social RP, and just because something's good at PvP doesn't mean it's going to be good at anything else.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Wed May 03, 2023 2:35 am

-XXX- wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 1:54 am
dominantdrowess wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 12:20 am

Pretty sure a mage can become 75% non true strike KD immune with just 2 points more disc and the boon after the basic basin gear. Nobody — not even giants — are fully immune. What do you consider balanced? 80%?

Your question is nonsensical - if I asked you what saves on a WM would you have considered to be fair and balanced, you'd have probably said "on par with the DC lvl 9 spells". Which is precisely what current optimal builds and gear do.

As I already stated ALL current optimal builds also aim for maxed stats including discipline - even optimally built wizards and sorcerers get 70 discipline.

The only difference here being that they must dip for it which represents considerable concessions on their part once we consider their primary class gimmick. You don't see melee builds making any concessions for achieving optimal stats - most of them comfortably achieve 50AB, 55AC, 36 saves and 30CL vs dispel.

In other words, while ALL optimal builds aim for optimal stats, only spellcaster builds are required to shoot themselves in the foot for doing so and there's no justification for that.
I mean... drethian's spot on - perfectly outlines the state of wizard and sorcerer classes and stuff like this only makes the builds more awkward and counter-intuitive.

25/5 would sacrifice 2 crit range to dip and now loses penetration and AC. It is a dead build. The new build goes into rogue, and lacks the pen. They also have to gear UMD, meaning they can’t spotbot as well as someone wearing spot gear. Humans can’t even make good spot bots unless deep rogue due to Keen Senses — all of whcih require a rogue build or elf.

These concessions are different, but they are about what is and is not available. If you want the AC to tank people you need a 3 rogue dip for Tumble and Evasion and have to use full round actions for wards or timestop or when doing a breach in return, giving people 2 actions to your 1.

This difference in tempo matter and the choices between them are why people play spellsword or WM or STRanger, or wizard, or sorc, or shadowdancer, or win playing a 30 Wildmage with 75% Knockdown immunity just to prove it can be done by them consistently.

Can you imagine if sorcerer with 100% KD immune was a disc dip and wizard wasn’t? Or if you gave it to 30 wizards, meaning wild mages could stand there crit immune and cast in your face with max dispel resistance with premonition?

This is why I ask what percentage of resistance for chars of the same size category you think is okay for Knockdown. 80%? Or is the intent 90% or 100%? I am not asking for hyperbole… because until that question is answered how can the math of the balance suggestion even be compared or considered in a logical and methodical way? The fact that this isn’t being asked or answered when making suggestion that would cause them to become 100% immune to knockdown from a human paladin - either without understanding that is the result, or without saying it is the intent by not presenting the math.. and the lack of comparison on similar practical examples is the point of my asking.

Make sense? Legitimately just want to know how often you think knockdown should be resisted by a mage in what you consider a fair fight. To make your suggested changes, a dev would have to consider the comparison to what they know is already possible in the game or if you are asking for the removal or invalidation of another classes features (knockdown) entirely. Without it they are just auto attack chasers.

So what is a fair percentage of KD for a max level, and a fully geared sorcerer of the same size category as their attacker? Any class change has to consider these elements. So what percent of Knockdown resistance do you envision?


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Wed May 03, 2023 7:57 am

It's not what I personally would have imagined, but what IS:
Skill dump combined with ESF if not STR based has become a standard for optimal builds - people build for 65-70 discipline.
A human melee build can get up to 52 AB and take IKD - which would put its success rate vs. 65 discipline at 7%. and vs. 70 discipline at 1.5%.
I think that nobody really wants pre true-strike KD to be reliable, same way nobody wants DC death spells to work against their build - these are simply not fun mechanics to be exposed against.

And as I've said earlier, were it up to me I'd have given discipline to ALL classes - people build for it and very much like lore it's more of a box to check than an actual class/build perk. Classes that don't have it as a class skill only make things more awkward for character building and can't really afford to go pure 30 lvls, but at the end of the day 65-70 discipline will be had.

dominantdrowess wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:35 am

25/5 would sacrifice 2 crit range to dip and now loses penetration and AC. It is a dead build. The new build goes into rogue, and lacks the pen.

We're not comparing handpicked melee builds against each other here, the actual point was:
No melee build has to sacrifice AB, AC, dps or CL vs. dispels to get 37 saves, 65-70 disc and 50 lore - all of that is a matter reasonably attainable of gear.
Spellcasters must sacrifice CL to get 65-70 disc and no amount of money spent at the basin or FOIG nonsense will get them there unless they multiclass.

I mention this here only because Sorc in particular is a feat starved class that can't even really afford arcane defense:abju to compensate for the CL loss, which turns the whole discipline conundrum into yet another straw on the camel's back.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Wed May 03, 2023 11:52 am

-XXX- wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 7:57 am

It's not what I personally would have imagined, but what IS:
Skill dump combined with ESF if not STR based has become a standard for optimal builds - people build for 65-70 discipline.
A human melee build can get up to 52 AB and take IKD - which would put its success rate vs. 65 discipline at 7%. and vs. 70 discipline at 1.5%.
I think that nobody really wants pre true-strike KD to be reliable, same way nobody wants DC death spells to work against their build - these are simply not fun mechanics to be exposed against.

And as I've said earlier, were it up to me I'd have given discipline to ALL classes - people build for it and very much like lore it's more of a box to check than an actual class/build perk. Classes that don't have it as a class skill only make things more awkward for character building and can't really afford to go pure 30 lvls, but at the end of the day 65-70 discipline will be had.

dominantdrowess wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:35 am

25/5 would sacrifice 2 crit range to dip and now loses penetration and AC. It is a dead build. The new build goes into rogue, and lacks the pen.

We're not comparing handpicked melee builds against each other here, the actual point was:
No melee build has to sacrifice AB, AC, dps or CL vs. dispels to get 37 saves, 65-70 disc and 50 lore - all of that is a matter reasonably attainable of gear.
Spellcasters must sacrifice CL to get 65-70 disc and no amount of money spent at the basin or FOIG nonsense will get them there unless they multiclass.

I mention this here only because Sorc in particular is a feat starved class that can't even really afford arcane defense:abju to compensate for the CL loss, which turns the whole discipline conundrum into yet another straw on the camel's back.

Discipline for all classes makes all classes True Strike immune to knockdown because of Skill Focus Discipline. You can get 70 even on a caster through gearing and we already mathematically proved that. It isn't balanced to do -- further; there IS trade in these builds -- many of whom cannot have lockpicking, trap disabling, or other things wizards have access to as essential parts of their class. These things are not chosen - everyone gets the familiar that does it.

The same thing happens for Fighter skills. Having both 100% knockdown immunity, and maximum resistance to dispelling isn't a good idea for class balance and you're literally presenting a statistical change that would raise the discipline they can get from 45 toward true-strike immune 70 through 15 more points in skill AND access to Epic Skill Focus: Discipline feat for 10 more on top of that.

Knockdown would become a feat only useful against people who had no idea what they were doing in the game. This is why I asked what you thought a reasonable percentage of knockdown resistance would be. You get 5 skill points from any of the special or rare gear beyond that-- and they are 75% true strike immune.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Wed May 03, 2023 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Wed May 03, 2023 12:03 pm

Deleted Sorcerer comment: "How about as often as spell saves fail".

If Knockdown functioned off of saves, than that would matter. But it doesn't. You can fail a death save and die -- but once you're true strike immune -- you literally can't fail. And that's an engine limitation. Unless they completely rescripted knockdown to use the instant strike system -- but doing that? Would make True-Strike knockdown even worse, since you could surprise people with it AS you drink it -- which is why it hasn't been changed.

Devs actually have to examine the math and figure out how much is a balanced percentage if they agree the current percentage is inappropriate; which they might not.

Hense why I am trying to pin you down to actual game numbers and use math as a demonstration of why it very probably is the way it is.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Naghast » Wed May 03, 2023 12:27 pm

A few long disclaimers:

discipline on a mage with crossclassed disc->
16 cc'd
+5 skillfocus
+6 strength modifier, 27 raw

gear: 11 slots, +2 each, 22 baseline
piker's rings: 3 disc each, +2 total over baseline. 24.
watcher's discipline amulet: requires lawful. 5 discipline, +3 over baseline. 27.
sergeant's cloak: 3 discipline, +1 over baseline. 28.

55 discipline. This shifts with base STR (higher if base STR is higher than 10, lower if base STR is lower than 10.)
And, i may have skipped something still.

SIDE NOTE: Earth elementalist. They get +10 free discipline, shifting the discipline from 55 to 65.

RE: knockdown.

The formula to KD is
Total attack roll (so, 1d20 + AB) + 4*size diff
VS
victim's discipline score + 1d20.
Additional modifiers: Improved knockdown makes you count as one size bigger, negating the -4 penalty to attack for the formula.

Assuming 50 AB:
Maximum attack roll is 70 (very rare occurrance)
KD check DC: 70 -4 (KD penalty) +4 (IKD upgrade)
70.

Meaning: To become actually, positively, 100% immune to knockdown coming from someone without true strike, with 50 AB, you'd need 69 discipline. Since i believe tie goes in favor of the victim.

Now, assuming 5 of that AB comes from weapon enhancement for example, truestrike would give +15 AB over that.
Effectively moving the maximum possible KD check DC from 70 to 85.
Requiring 84 total discipline to be immune to truestrike KD, coming from someone of the same size as you, with this AB bonus.
Any size difference between you and your opponent shifts the discipline requirement here by 4.

And yes, i KNOW nat 20 KD are rare. you don't have to tell me that.
And yes, i also know that truestrike KD is, in a normal fight, in wilderness, with a lot of room to run around, hard to pull off.

RE: DC spells

I mentioned save DC spells because the effect is functionally identical, or at least very similar.

When you fail a save vs a DC spell, you're either CC'd for a long Snuggybear time and have to burn a pray, or you just outright die.

When you fail a discipline check vs KD, you take some severe damage, which oftentimes forces you to burn a pray to survive, or you just die to the damage output, especially if the attacker was a weaponmaster. A full, whole round of attacks vs a flatfooted opponent is lethal.

The difference here is of course that spells have range. But spells also have immunity wards that give you total, 100% immunity to these spells that instantly kill you. Please bear that in mind. There's no sippy to make you totally immune to knockdown.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by dominantdrowess » Wed May 03, 2023 12:41 pm

But you're again comparing reward characters to non-reward characters. You don't get much over 50 AB (with the -4 KD roll) on equal-size-modified races. So it's closer to a +46 unless you have Improved Knockdown, which many classes don't get. (This was why Ring of The Ram was such a big balance issue.)


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Naghast » Wed May 03, 2023 12:48 pm

1: i didn't compare reward characters to non reward characters. you can have a situation of hin vs human. none of those are reward races.
2: many classes don't get improved knockdown...?
What...?
fighters almost always get IKD. so do hexblades, so do a lot of other classes. That's a really weird argument.

Also:

3: "again" does not apply to me here. It was the first (well, 2nd if we count the comment i promptly deleted) time i wrote anything on this thread.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed May 03, 2023 1:01 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:35 am

So what is a fair percentage of KD for a max level, and a fully geared sorcerer of the same size category as their attacker? Any class change has to consider these elements. So what percent of Knockdown resistance do you envision?

This question wasn't for me, but I have an answer anyways. 95%, and that's based on the logic used on this server. Saves are so high because no one likes to lose to one spell, in particular death spells or paralysis. Hell, you even can pray away the later if you happen to get stuck with a one. And that's before spells that give you immunity to these things. Getting Kd'd by a weaponsmaster for a wizard/sorc/ect is as much of a death sentence as both of those spell effects. And unless there is some loot that gives you kd immunity I don't know about it, there is no such thing on arelith as immunity to it via spells, ect., so kd is already a step ahead of the dc spells out of a wizard.

If you wanted to have a conversation about said logic of the server and whether or not it's right, that's a more nuanced debate. But this one is pretty simple, making it any bit easier to kd anyone with the way things are would be and absolute FU to everyone but melee classes.

Getting back to the debate about more versatility for sorcerers being fine vs being too good, I don't get the point people are trying to make who are against it. For PvP, sorcerer is the most powerful build when it comes to casters. Thats true as is. Making them more fun to play via flexibility is not going to alter that, and I would love to hear the answer to someone's question in this thread about what sort of build would break the class if they had another spell per level or whatever.

If the thought process is that people will stop playing wizards because they are weak, it's just not true. Wizards are already weak, and anyone playing them has already come to terms with the fact that in PvP/group PvE they are a Mords/haste bot. They are still played however because of the character flexibility. A well-done sorcerer can tell a great story, but it generally comes down to the same thing. Increasing their power to become godlike. A wizard can have all sorts of motivations and goals and is only limited in the story they tell by their own imagination.

Now if someone wanted to kick off a debate about how wizards are traditionally the most powerful class in dungeons and dragons and what they have been reduced to on Arelith is a travesty, I'm all for it. I don't think it's going to go anywhere, unless someone is willing to completely imagine how Wizards work on NWN, because the dice are the great equalizers of melee combat. Most spells don't have a miss chance. But it's not a bad conversation to have. However, the idea that sorcerers can't have some more nice things because they will become the default wizard is just nonsense for the vast majority of players, and those that care about pvp power exclusively are already going to pick sorcerer over wizard anyways.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Wed May 03, 2023 1:03 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 11:52 am

Discipline for all classes makes all classes True Strike immune to knockdown because of Skill Focus Discipline. You can get 70 even on a caster through gearing and we already mathematically proved that. It isn't balanced to do -- further; there IS trade in these builds -- many of whom cannot have lockpicking, trap disabling, or other things wizards have access to as essential parts of their class. These things are not chosen - everyone gets the familiar that does it.

Again, this isn't about whether 70 discipline should be a thing or whether it's balanced - all optimal builds have it already. Some classes make that readily available while other classes force the player to warp the build around it and the key by which this applies is completely arbitrary.

Secondly, a human using true strike and KD can force up to DC 79 discipline checks:
25 = BAB
14 = STR
04 = Feats
20 = AB cap
-04 = KD
1d20 = Attack Roll

So no 70 disc =/= true strike KD immunity (it's actually closer to 75% resist rate, btw.)

Finally, what does lockpicking even have to do with any of this?
a) the pixie nerf has been approved and pending
b) EVERYBODY can break into chests anyway - all they need is 1 rank in open lock + 1 rank in disable trap and some gear to swap in and out of.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Drethian » Wed May 03, 2023 2:22 pm

Every single well-built sorc in the game class dips for discipline already and invests max ranks in the skill.

If they're smart, they put their last dip level at 30.

Giving them discipline as a class skill wouldn't change their total discipline score AT ALL. It'd just make it so they wouldn't have to dip for it.

The discipline debate is frankly irrelevant.

Even if that change was implemented tomorrow, pure 30 sorc wouldn't be the best sorc build, and they'd still be lacking for spell choices.

Also to put the notion to rest that it's viable to do that right now: Mathematically 45 discipline is laughably bad and borderline useless. It will not suffice unless your opponent is absolutely terrible at the video game (ex: fails to close the distance and even land a kd check). Wild mages can somewhat get away with it due to perfect fate cheese, and if your opponent has completely neglected to gear for saves, sure - other mages could get away with it. But it's not viable beyond those very silly and specific conditions, both of which rely on the incompetence of the person who has KD in their feat list.

I can assure you that a sorc who dipped ranger, paladin, specialist, bard, or blackguard and skill dumped into discipline would get the same amount of discipline if it was a sorc class skill. They simply wouldn't need to multiclass to do it.

Same outcome, different pathway and less of a hurdle.

No offense intended, but needing to multiclass to max discipline isn't a sorc specific obstacle. Wizards and clerics have to do that too.

The problem the OP brought up was that sorcerer gets an inadequate number of spells that they can memorize each level. It gets few options, most of which must be spent on the same mandatory spells, and there's hardly any breathing room for customization or versatility after the fact.

That's what the OP is addressing.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Hazard » Wed May 03, 2023 4:23 pm

I dislike having to dip for disc, which then lowers my CL which makes me vulnerable to dispels, so I have to spend 2 feats (if I can even afford that/fit it into the build) to compensate and get back to 29CL (still not 30CL).


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed May 03, 2023 6:12 pm

Hazard wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 4:23 pm

I dislike having to dip for disc, which then lowers my CL which makes me vulnerable to dispels, so I have to spend 2 feats (if I can even afford that/fit it into the build) to compensate and get back to 29CL (still not 30CL).

The elephant in the room.
When martials dip, they get to keep their Dispel CL at 30, but when casters dip, it's often (almost always) at a Dispel CL cost. That neither seems fair nor makes logical sense, since the caster should be the one with expertise and aptitude for magic, not the martial.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Svrtr » Wed May 03, 2023 7:30 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 6:12 pm
Hazard wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 4:23 pm

I dislike having to dip for disc, which then lowers my CL which makes me vulnerable to dispels, so I have to spend 2 feats (if I can even afford that/fit it into the build) to compensate and get back to 29CL (still not 30CL).

The elephant in the room.
When martials dip, they get to keep their Dispel CL at 30, but when casters dip, it's often (almost always) at a Dispel CL cost. That neither seems fair nor makes logical sense, since the caster should be the one with expertise and aptitude for magic, not the martial.

The other end of this is that they are only getting a CL 10 haste at best, or if they read from a scroll they have to spend a full round action, and have little to no scaling. Then if we look at things like SS they are getting it and breach resist and armor imbue and weapon imbue etc etc etc.

The reason the way things are what they are is because a mundane who gets dispelled with a CL 10 bulls strength having a 100% chance of being dispelled will just die with no recourse because at its heart 3e was a game dependent upon magical wards


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AllPizzasArePersonal » Wed May 03, 2023 8:43 pm

Svrtr wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 7:30 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 6:12 pm
Hazard wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 4:23 pm

I dislike having to dip for disc, which then lowers my CL which makes me vulnerable to dispels, so I have to spend 2 feats (if I can even afford that/fit it into the build) to compensate and get back to 29CL (still not 30CL).

The elephant in the room.
When martials dip, they get to keep their Dispel CL at 30, but when casters dip, it's often (almost always) at a Dispel CL cost. That neither seems fair nor makes logical sense, since the caster should be the one with expertise and aptitude for magic, not the martial.

The other end of this is that they are only getting a CL 10 haste at best, or if they read from a scroll they have to spend a full round action, and have little to no scaling. Then if we look at things like SS they are getting it and breach resist and armor imbue and weapon imbue etc etc etc.

The reason the way things are what they are is because a mundane who gets dispelled with a CL 10 bulls strength having a 100% chance of being dispelled will just die with no recourse because at its heart 3e was a game dependent upon magical wards

To say nothing of the fact that the 27/3 caster can still use those potions, wands, and scrolls to cast buffs at a 30 CL vs dispels if they want to.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu May 04, 2023 1:08 am

AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 8:43 pm
Svrtr wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 7:30 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 6:12 pm

The elephant in the room.
When martials dip, they get to keep their Dispel CL at 30, but when casters dip, it's often (almost always) at a Dispel CL cost. That neither seems fair nor makes logical sense, since the caster should be the one with expertise and aptitude for magic, not the martial.

The other end of this is that they are only getting a CL 10 haste at best, or if they read from a scroll they have to spend a full round action, and have little to no scaling. Then if we look at things like SS they are getting it and breach resist and armor imbue and weapon imbue etc etc etc.

The reason the way things are what they are is because a mundane who gets dispelled with a CL 10 bulls strength having a 100% chance of being dispelled will just die with no recourse because at its heart 3e was a game dependent upon magical wards

To say nothing of the fact that the 27/3 caster can still use those potions, wands, and scrolls to cast buffs at a 30 CL vs dispels if they want to.

Unless this was changed somewhere, (I don't think it has but there have been a lot of changes) consumables go off your cl. If you are a mundane, you have no caster level, so it defaults to your character level to try and balance things out against casters. So, no, a 27/3 would still default to 27 with them because it has a Caster level.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Svrtr » Thu May 04, 2023 1:23 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:08 am
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 8:43 pm
Svrtr wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 7:30 pm

The other end of this is that they are only getting a CL 10 haste at best, or if they read from a scroll they have to spend a full round action, and have little to no scaling. Then if we look at things like SS they are getting it and breach resist and armor imbue and weapon imbue etc etc etc.

The reason the way things are what they are is because a mundane who gets dispelled with a CL 10 bulls strength having a 100% chance of being dispelled will just die with no recourse because at its heart 3e was a game dependent upon magical wards

To say nothing of the fact that the 27/3 caster can still use those potions, wands, and scrolls to cast buffs at a 30 CL vs dispels if they want to.

Unless this was changed somewhere, (I don't think it has but there have been a lot of changes) consumables go off your cl. If you are a mundane, you have no caster level, so it defaults to your character level to try and balance things out against casters. So, no, a 27/3 would still default to 27 with them because it has a Caster level.

No it goes off of your Character Level CL until you cast THAT WARD from your spellbook, at which point it uses your caster level.

Use bull strength potion = Character level 30 CL
Cast bulls strength from book = That 30 CL is now your caster level (Lets say 27)

Use cat's grace potion = 27

I am editing because I misunderstood a reading from a while back. Still, hours/level wards cast from wands is the way

Last edited by Svrtr on Thu May 04, 2023 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Scylon » Thu May 04, 2023 2:03 am

Bloodlines

Best way to navigate this is give them a blood line, and there is a bonus spell (that you don't choose) per level. This in my head would function simmer to cleric domains. I think just giving them free choices on spells would defeat the reason to ever be a wizard (which has its own problems with spells per day).

I put an idea for a new point style resource system for Sorc in the suggestions box also.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu May 04, 2023 2:13 am

Svrtr wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:23 am
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:08 am
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 8:43 pm

To say nothing of the fact that the 27/3 caster can still use those potions, wands, and scrolls to cast buffs at a 30 CL vs dispels if they want to.

Unless this was changed somewhere, (I don't think it has but there have been a lot of changes) consumables go off your cl. If you are a mundane, you have no caster level, so it defaults to your character level to try and balance things out against casters. So, no, a 27/3 would still default to 27 with them because it has a Caster level.

No it goes off of your Character Level CL until you cast THAT WARD from your spellbook, at which point it uses your caster level.

Use bull strength potion = Character level 30 CL
Cast bulls strength from book = That 30 CL is now your caster level (Lets say 27)

Use cat's grace potion = 30 CL not 27 despite casting bull's strength before.

Janky as hell but yea

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by magistrasa » Thu May 04, 2023 10:08 am

Svrtr wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:23 am

No it goes off of your Character Level CL until you cast THAT WARD from your spellbook, at which point it uses your caster level.

I was always told that consumables were based on character level until you used ANY spell from your spellbook. So the minute you cast anything, regardless of what it is, all consumables are then set to your CL. Of course, that's just what I was told. Who's to say if it's true.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Thu May 04, 2023 1:29 pm

Here's how it always worked as far as I can recall:

Zanithar wrote:

The way Caster Level (CL) for dispel purposes works is that after a reset for every character CL is set to Character Level. Meaning a Level 27 wizard / 3 bard and a level 30 fighter and a level 30 cleric. All CL = 30 after a reset. At which point casting from any spell book changes things. Your CL is set to the CL of the spellbook and remains that way for any items used until either you cast from another spellbook OR the server resets.

Example: 27 Wizard / 3 Bard

The Server Resets
You quaff a Bull's Strength Potion: CL = 30
You cast Fox's Cunning from your Wizard Spellbook: CL = 27
You read a Shield Scroll: CL = 27
You cast Good Hope from your Bard's Spellbook: CL = 3
You wand invoke Negative Energy Protection: CL = 3
You cast Mage Armor from your Wizards Spellbook: CL = 27
You wand invoke Negative Energy Protection: CL=27
Server Resets: GOTO Step 2.

So yeah, technically even 27/3 caster builds can have 30 CL vs dispels on magical consumables used before they cast their first spell after a server reset.
Keep in mind that this hinges on:
a) spellcaster not casting spells
b) timing of the server reset

The (im)practicality of application makes this knowledge more of an amusing factoid than anything really useful.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon May 08, 2023 3:54 pm

Drethian wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:22 pm

Every single well-built sorc in the game class dips for discipline already and invests max ranks in the skill.

If they're smart, they put their last dip level at 30.

Giving them discipline as a class skill wouldn't change their total discipline score AT ALL. It'd just make it so they wouldn't have to dip for it.

The discipline debate is frankly irrelevant.

Even if that change was implemented tomorrow, pure 30 sorc wouldn't be the best sorc build, and they'd still be lacking for spell choices.

Also to put the notion to rest that it's viable to do that right now: Mathematically 45 discipline is laughably bad and borderline useless. It will not suffice unless your opponent is absolutely terrible at the video game (ex: fails to close the distance and even land a kd check). Wild mages can somewhat get away with it due to perfect fate cheese, and if your opponent has completely neglected to gear for saves, sure - other mages could get away with it. But it's not viable beyond those very silly and specific conditions, both of which rely on the incompetence of the person who has KD in their feat list.

I can assure you that a sorc who dipped ranger, paladin, specialist, bard, or blackguard and skill dumped into discipline would get the same amount of discipline if it was a sorc class skill. They simply wouldn't need to multiclass to do it.

Same outcome, different pathway and less of a hurdle.

No offense intended, but needing to multiclass to max discipline isn't a sorc specific obstacle. Wizards and clerics have to do that too.

The problem the OP brought up was that sorcerer gets an inadequate number of spells that they can memorize each level. It gets few options, most of which must be spent on the same mandatory spells, and there's hardly any breathing room for customization or versatility after the fact.

That's what the OP is addressing.

Very well stated. 100% agree.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Mon May 08, 2023 5:48 pm

Discipline - yes, sorcerer builds can reach max Discipline with a dip, but at the cost of 3 CL

That 3 CL tax affects the following:

  • dispels - there's a 15% greater chance of having buffs stripped when compared to 30 CL (up to 40% at CL 27 against 25% at CL 30)

  • spell duration

  • spell penetration vs. spell resistance

  • spells that scale past 27 CL (not many, but there are some good ones)

  • epic caster bonus = in practice 2 less AB, AC, saves and 3 less HD for summons.

I wouldn't call all of the above irrelevant.


Spell selection - as has been mentioned before, the arcane spell list (while containing an impressive number of spells) does not offer that many actually good ones (especially for PvP) since most of them are DC based. I doubt that giving sorcerers access to wider selection of spells would have really addressed their biggest issues, but...

Sorcerer struggles the most with 6th lvl spell circle that currently concentrates the following items:

  • ALL mass ZOO spells

  • mass haste

  • IGMS

  • true seeing

  • acid fog

...out of which they can only ever select 3 spells. Making mass ZOO spells lvl 5 would have alleviated a lot of this without the need for giving sorcerers extra spells for example (not that many so important spells at lvl 5 spell circle).


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Drethian » Mon May 08, 2023 7:27 pm

Neglected to quote you XXX, but this is in response your proposed changes and why I labeled the debate about discipline irrelevant:

The topic of this thread was inadequate numbers of spells per level for sorcerers.

Discipline is 100% a side-topic that neglects to address this thread's actual topic, and frankly that whole debate belongs in another thread.

If we entertain it at all, however, it needs to be known that giving sorcerer discipline as a class skill does nothing to address the issue this thread was created to resolve. Nor does it actually provide any benefit to the ideal sorc build, which is not pure 30. Pure sorcerer would be suboptimal even if it had discipline as a class skill. That's the second reason I labeled it irrelevant. It's an archetype that doesn't exist, that would be inferior to the alternatives even if it did exist.

All that said, I appreciate much of the input you've given in this forum, but I strongly disagree that putting zoo buffs on 5 does anything to resolve the aforementioned issue.

The issue was inadequate quantity of spells per level. Not merely "sorcs need zoo buffs on 5."

That is a very small part of the big picture. Your suggested changes, while nice, aren't really sufficient on their own. Because they leave the problem at hand, the one this entire thread was made to bring to light, totally unaddressed and unresolved. It's applying a bandage to a couple small cuts that only some sorcerer players are even aggrieved about, rather than addressing the massive, gaping wound that affects them all.

(I can assure you that if every sorcerer on the server had an extra spell on 6th, they wouldn't all unanimously choose a mass zoo spell. That change only assists the ones who would, and neglects everyone else who would've chosen something different. Re-allocating to 5th also isn't even an additional spell. 5th, like every other spell level for sorcerers, is extremely tight with little room for customization.)

Sorcerers are deprived of the number of spells they can pick at nearly all levels, but especially levels 6-9, which are some of the most vital.

Necromancers cannot pick up Wail of the Banshee without dropping Mords, Timestop, or Gate.
Enchanters can't pick up Dominate Monster without dropping one of the same. The list goes on.

Wizards have access to every one of those spells and more, and frequently tri-focus. Where as on a sorc, even dual focusing is questionable, because you'll get little opportunity to actually choose spells from your chosen schools once you've selected the mandatory ones that you cannot go without.

As I said before, you've made a lot of valid points in this thread, but I don't understand the resistance towards +1 spell choice per level for sorcerers when it wouldn't break the class at all, but instead give it much needed versatility, viability, and make it less one dimensional.

Last edited by Drethian on Mon May 08, 2023 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Hazard » Mon May 08, 2023 8:40 pm

Seems like sorcerers should have stayed in school.
Wizards rule, sorcerers drool.


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