Sorcerer

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Two for the Rogues
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Sorcerer

Post by Two for the Rogues » Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:04 pm

I like Sorcerer. There are a lot of imperative spells on Arelith, though, and I feel like the class currently lacks diversity because everyone is strongly incentivized to go divine sorcerer with a spellbook that is laid out more or less as follows:

9 - Gate, Timestop, Mord's
8 - Gsanc, Premo, *
7 - Shadow Shield, Spell Mantle, * (Arcane 7 is the worst base spell circle)
6 - Mass Haste, True Seeing, IGMS
5 - Energy Buffer, dismissal, *, *
4 - Imp Invis, Lesser Breach, Stoneskin, *
3 - Clarity, Haste, Flame Arrow, *
2 - See Invis, UV, Darkness, Balagarn's, Web
1 - Grease, Mage armor, PfA, True Strike, Ironguts

Giving Sorcerers +1 spell per school - the scaling Favored Soul and Shaman have - would go a long way toward allowing Sorcerers some versatility. If the concern is that this will make Divine Sorc oppressive (which I don't think it will, but I dislike that build and am very sick of all possible improvements to sorcerer being gated behind "but what about the increasingly-common synergy that'll give sorcs 14 uni and 14 dodge AC?"), then make divine shield cancel EMA. Having one dip archetype that's strictly better than all the others kills build diversity, and "caster stat to AC" has always been a problematic mechanic in NWN.

The most noteworthy change is granting access to their spell focus's capstone 9th circle without sacrificing major utility, and makes buying the buffs per school on 8, 6, and 5 feel less innately restrictive.
Shuffling some currently 6 and 8th circle spells to 7 would also feel very very nice: dropping Nybor's or Otto's (currently there are no enchantment spells on 7), or being able to take greater dispelling/breach on 6 or 7 would enable sorcs who want to commit to the counterspelling specialty to have a very potent niche.

Below I'd like to outline what I think the standard spellbook of a 26/4 Sorc/whatever would look like for Evocation and Enchantment focii under the proposed change. Remove the last spell listed for every level to see the current book.
9 - Gate, Timestop, Mord's, Dominate Monster
8 - Gsanc, Premo, Mass Charm, Otto's
7 - Shadow Shield, Spell Mantle, Protection from Spells, Banishment (feels bad man)
6 - Mass Haste, True Seeing, IGMS, G.dispel.
5 - Energy Buffer, Dismissal, Mind Fog, Lesser Mind Blank, Daltim's
4 - Imp Invis, Lesser Breach, Stoneskin, Evards, Remove Blindness
3 - Clarity, Haste, Flame Arrow, Negative Energy Burst, Sound Lance
2 - See Invis, UV, Darkness, Balagarn's, Web, False Life
1 - Grease, Mage armor, PfA, True Strike, Shield, Ironguts
and Evocation:
9 - Gate, Timestop, Mord's, Iceberg
8 - Gsanc, Premo, Sunburst, Incendiary Cloud
7 - Shadow Shield, Thunderclap, Bigby's, PW:Stun
6 - Mass Haste, True Seeing, IGMS, Acid Fog/Bigby's
5 - Energy Buffer, Dismissal, Lesser Mind Blank, Lesser Mantle, Darkbolt
4 - Imp Invis, Lesser Breach, Stoneskin, Evards, Remove Blindness
3 - Clarity, Haste, Flame Arrow, Negative Energy Burst, Sound Lance
2 - See Invis, UV, Darkness, Balagarn's, Web, False Life
1 - Grease, Mage Armor, PfA, True Strike, Shield, Ironguts

More options, but not a lot more mechanical power.
It also means that when new spells get added, almost every spell focus has a spell they could eschew on every level, which makes the class easier to scale power-wise with new content, which currently only a few focuses can afford.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by perseid » Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:07 pm

It's more a nitpick than anything since obviously we're talking about a proposed configuration with no summoning so there's a discussion about costs to be had, but I'd point out as a first pass criticism that arguably Stoneskin, Premonition, Timestop, and (if you're really feeling spendy) True Seeing are all spells that could be replaced with scrolls (and in the case of Timestop probably should be).


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:02 am

Let's be honest . . . Sorcerer is kind of boring to play.

I find with the current setup to play generally involves you hiding behind a summon or party until the dungeons big bad at which point you unload hell upon them. Thats it. You don't have the spell slots to cast much throughout the dive (at least the new cantrips let me feel like I'm helping). Yes, they are good with AC and erasing a Dungeon boss or player in PvP, but with the recent changes, even that PvP side is a bit debatable.

I personally would like to see a bit of love for the class. Maybe if more spell slots were added or castings? Extra feats to allow for more than two Schools of Spell Focus? Infi cast lower-level spells based on the ESF Focus? Honestly, I'm not sure. I never was a very good character builder. All I can safely say is Sorcerer is dull to play but solid for what it does.

Last edited by Edens_Fall on Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:20 am

Sorcerer is very bad right now - be it hiding behind summons in PvE or blasting people in PvP - there are classes that do all that but better now.
Even IG it seems like Sorcerers are extinct at this point.

Here's something that might be a bandaid quick fix for the class: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41940&p=320277#p320277


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Kuma » Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:35 am

I've been an advocate for giving Sorcs an extra known spell from level 6 through 9 for a while now. They've been distinctly left on the wayside for ages and if people instead just want the other spont scaling (+1 per level) then hell yeah I'm behind that too!

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:29 am

strongest mage class in the game


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by DwarfPrideWorldWide » Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:33 am

Kuma wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:35 am

I've been an advocate for giving Sorcs an extra known spell from level 6 through 9 for a while now. They've been distinctly left on the wayside for ages and if people instead just want the other spont scaling (+1 per level) then hell yeah I'm behind that too!

I've honestly also been discussing this around with people in the discord, sorcs IMO are in an ok spot, they do what they're meant to...but they're incredibly boring. Personally I think some love could be shown with either a feat line or paths for bloodlines.

IE Draconic bloodline, Divine Soul, Storm Sorcs, Clockwork soul, aberrant mind ETC

I know these are 5e things, but honestly it'd work for what we have currently and I don't think its a lorebreak at all given sorcerers have always been established as just being born able to use magic instead of having to study like wizards.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:50 am

At the risk of going slightly off topic - what was the original issue with Weavemaster?

From where I stand, many of the casters are okay in PvP balance wise. And whether they are subpar or overtuned is a different topic. But many of the traditional casters are - as mentioned above - incredibly dull to play. You summon things, you buff them and you watch summons or party members do the job. This is because you have limited resources.

What is wrong with spells slots/uses being refreshed? If the time refresh is long enough that you can't keep certain buffs up (say haste, mass haste, true seeing) all the time, but short enough that you can use them several times throughout a dungeon crawl, that seems like a healthy compromise. Basically let them spam a bit more when it comes to PvE, keep the number of casts for PvP.

I would go as far as to say one could add spell refreshes for hostile spells but not buffs. Want to use a fireball every 30 seconds, or a Meteor Swarm every 3 minutes? Perfectly fine. But no permanent mass haste or true seeing.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:11 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:50 am

At the risk of going slightly off topic - what was the original issue with Weavemaster?

The cooldown mechanic used to balance out the infinicasting made the path very weak in PvP.
But yeah, some mechanic for swiching back to vanilla spellcasting in some capacity would have addressed that.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:24 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:29 am

strongest mage class in the game

I agree. But adding more versatility isn't going to make that gap any wider. It's still going to do what it does in pvp while hopefully making pve a little more interesting.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:45 pm

perseid wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:07 pm

It's more a nitpick than anything since obviously we're talking about a proposed configuration with no summoning so there's a discussion about costs to be had, but I'd point out as a first pass criticism that arguably Stoneskin, Premonition, Timestop, and (if you're really feeling spendy) True Seeing are all spells that could be replaced with scrolls (and in the case of Timestop probably should be).

No. This is wrong.

Casting Time Stop is one of the strongest things you can do in the game. A scroll of anything is a slower, weaker method. The act of using scrolls as a full caster should be supplementary to your skills and particularly vital in situations where you need a backup plan, or where having an every single plan ever is beneficial. Furthermore, CL.

There are situations that call for scrolls or potions over spells. But the idea you would try to play a caster to replace them with scrolls is inherently crippling.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:51 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:50 am

At the risk of going slightly off topic - what was the original issue with Weavemaster?

From where I stand, many of the casters are okay in PvP balance wise. And whether they are subpar or overtuned is a different topic. But many of the traditional casters are - as mentioned above - incredibly dull to play. You summon things, you buff them and you watch summons or party members do the job. This is because you have limited resources.

What is wrong with spells slots/uses being refreshed? If the time refresh is long enough that you can't keep certain buffs up (say haste, mass haste, true seeing) all the time, but short enough that you can use them several times throughout a dungeon crawl, that seems like a healthy compromise. Basically let them spam a bit more when it comes to PvE, keep the number of casts for PvP.

I would go as far as to say one could add spell refreshes for hostile spells but not buffs. Want to use a fireball every 30 seconds, or a Meteor Swarm every 3 minutes? Perfectly fine. But no permanent mass haste or true seeing.

I like the idea of spell slots being refreshed. It works well for Warlocks and can give some interactive play rather then just following along.

Maybe even a feat restricted to the class that when taken blocks the PC from being able to summon but grants greater spell DC, spell slots, spell refreshing, or infi cast?


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by chris a gogo » Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:03 pm

So Increase the number of spell options that was the only limiting factor for the class, which is the only reason to take wizard over sorcerer.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Amateur Hour » Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:34 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:03 pm

So Increase the number of spell options that was the only limiting factor for the class, which is the only reason to take wizard over sorcerer.

Not just. Wizards also get tremendously more skill points since their main stat also contributes to that. They have significantly more feats as well.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:13 pm

Giving sorc more spells is a bad idea. Sorc is mostly fine. It's not particularly fun to play and I welcome some sort of qol boon that other classes do not get. Maybe slightly reduced components cost or a low refund chance for spells from a school in which they master. But... yeah, just giving them more spells is a really bad idea. Sorc is still one of the best casters at nuking in pvp and it's downside has always been the difficult spell selection.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:59 pm

I don't believe they need a larger spell selection either - other than the 3 spell level 6 slots (1) that prevent Sorcerers from having the full complement of mass ZOO spells to buff their party or summons, the rest of their spell list constuction isn't that limiting.

Nor do I think that they are hopeless in PvP, even though IGMS spam that Sorcerers heavily lean into isn't the best strategy (2) IMO.

Hence the call for more QoL infinicasting stuff that would have only minimal impact on PvP, but would vastly improve Sorcerer's appeal and PvE gameplay.


(1) they're pretty much locked into Mass Bull, Mass Haste and IGMS at this point - forgoing true seeing in the process
(2) if all you want to do is dish big numbers at range all over the place, why not just go AA - it's so much better at it


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Paint » Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:33 pm

I think a lot of the infinicasting buffs for wizard suggest that sorc getting something similar wouldn't vastly affect their power and would make their lives considerably easier, or at least give them something to think about and perhaps some variety during PVE. Unlike its divine counterpart, FvS, and its nature counterpart, Shaman, Sorc doesn't really have a lot of flexibility on what it can reasonably be and perform 'well enough,' due to its 1/2 BAB, d4 HD, and constrained spell selection.

Does sorcerer need diversity? Do we need to see weird gimmicky sorcerers popping up? No. But would it be fun? Yeah, kinda. And that's really the point, I think, of the meat of the feedback around sorcs. Leave vanilla sorc alone, but give sorcs options to spec into weird stuff.

I think telling people to just play an invoker if they want x or y is also kind of missing the point; invokers are not the same as sorcerers. They don't have the same spell selection or the same mechanics. And at least from my experience, playing an invoker feels quite a bit different from playing a sorcerer.

Edit:
There is, I think, a realistic concern that giving a class like sorcerer more breadth, even if the options initially seem to be balanced (or worse in general, but better in niche circumstances), there can be runaway builds that exploit unpredicted interactions, which has something that has happened with classes that have been more fluid recently like Vigilante and the cleric path, Seeker. If sorcerer is given a boon, it's important that it can't be abused as a power multiplier.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by DwarfPrideWorldWide » Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:10 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:51 pm
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:50 am

At the risk of going slightly off topic - what was the original issue with Weavemaster?

From where I stand, many of the casters are okay in PvP balance wise. And whether they are subpar or overtuned is a different topic. But many of the traditional casters are - as mentioned above - incredibly dull to play. You summon things, you buff them and you watch summons or party members do the job. This is because you have limited resources.

What is wrong with spells slots/uses being refreshed? If the time refresh is long enough that you can't keep certain buffs up (say haste, mass haste, true seeing) all the time, but short enough that you can use them several times throughout a dungeon crawl, that seems like a healthy compromise. Basically let them spam a bit more when it comes to PvE, keep the number of casts for PvP.

I would go as far as to say one could add spell refreshes for hostile spells but not buffs. Want to use a fireball every 30 seconds, or a Meteor Swarm every 3 minutes? Perfectly fine. But no permanent mass haste or true seeing.

I like the idea of spell slots being refreshed. It works well for Warlocks and can give some interactive play rather then just following along.

Maybe even a feat restricted to the class that when taken blocks the PC from being able to summon but grants greater spell DC, spell slots, spell refreshing, or infi cast?

Infi cast would be great and I could see it fitting in well with my earlier suggestion for sorcerous bloodlines IE draconic perhaps giving infi casts on cooldown for Evocation spells.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Kuma » Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

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Re: Sorcerer

Post by perseid » Tue Apr 25, 2023 2:58 pm

With Darkness and Silence wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:45 pm
perseid wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:07 pm

It's more a nitpick than anything since obviously we're talking about a proposed configuration with no summoning so there's a discussion about costs to be had, but I'd point out as a first pass criticism that arguably Stoneskin, Premonition, Timestop, and (if you're really feeling spendy) True Seeing are all spells that could be replaced with scrolls (and in the case of Timestop probably should be).

No. This is wrong.

Casting Time Stop is one of the strongest things you can do in the game. A scroll of anything is a slower, weaker method. The act of using scrolls as a full caster should be supplementary to your skills and particularly vital in situations where you need a backup plan, or where having an every single plan ever is beneficial. Furthermore, CL.

There are situations that call for scrolls or potions over spells. But the idea you would try to play a caster to replace them with scrolls is inherently crippling.

You use the scroll because it will interrupt a Time Stop that is cast before yours and can be timed against Time Stop books if you count the dings. Considering Time Stop is one of the strongest things you can do in game I don't see how you can call the medium that takes the highest priority the weaker method.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:06 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

I dunno what that even means, but:

Infinicasting = good
Vancian spellcasting = bad

Why? Because infinicasting has 0 impact on PvP balance, but greatly contributes to enjoyable PvE experience.
PvP revolves around tempo and kill pressure. Infinicasting is all about attrition which isn't as relevant there, but makes a night and day difference during PvE.

Furthermore, since we already do have infinicaster classes, it's obviously assumed in the dungeon design (dungeon length, monster hp, saves, spawn size, etc). That pretty much means anybody not swinging a sword or infinicasting is at a major disadvatage.

The vancian system works at low lvl PnP sessions, but for a PW like Arelith it's all backwards - all spells should default at infinicasting and any potentially troublesome ones can always be treated with a cooldown (like timestop and gsanc).


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Hazard » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:14 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:06 pm

Infinicasting = good
Vancian spellcasting = bad

Oh yeah?
Well . . .

Infinicasting = bad
Vancian spellcasting = good


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:25 pm

Hazard wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:14 pm

Infinicasting = bad
Vancian spellcasting = good

Because?

I actually also provided a reasoning.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by A Ray of Sunshine » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:42 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:06 pm

Furthermore, since we already do have infinicaster classes, it's obviously assumed in the dungeon design (dungeon length, monster hp, saves, spawn size, etc). That pretty much means anybody not swinging a sword or infinicasting is at a major disadvatage.

I very much agree with this, and would even extend it to spell design itself. Infinicasters and vancian casters draw from (roughly) the same pool of spells, balanced the same way. A star-pact warlock can fundamentally 'autoattack' with two casts a round of the same Darkbolt that would eat up precious level 5 slots for a wizard to cast even a few. An elementalist doesn't need to agonize over whether Lightning Bolt is worth slotting due to being a reflex-half spell when they can cast it effectively at will.

Vancian casting just isn't suited for a hi-octane action environment like what Arelith has grown to be. The calculus of 'is this spell worth slotting instead of another buff' usually falls on the side of the buff (or summon), because who would risk slotting a Chain Lightning that will almost always do half damage, probably no damage (so much stuff has evasion...), and take up the spot of a Mass Haste, a Mass Zoo.. heck, even a Greater Breach for when a yellow appears so the weaponmaster can delete him in two rounds instead of six. Nearly any other spell in the roster is a better value proposition than the damage spells, and will always lose on opportunity cost considerations.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:04 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Infinite casting and its consequences have been a disaster for the Arelithian playerbase. It has greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who grind in “based” parties, but they have destabilized spawn balance, have made grinding unfulfilling, have subjected players to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Underdark to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural build order. The continued development of infinite casting will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject players to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural build order, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “based” parties.

This is a very exciting to read paragraph, but I'm having trouble determining what it means. Can you elaborate for the cheap seats so I can understand your point a little better?


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