Invisible Blade Feedback

[magistrasa]

I built an Invisible Blade recently and I found myself thoroughly underwhelmed by pretty much every aspect of the class. It's currently about as close as one gets to the "Arcane Trickster" aesthetic, so I was quite determined to make it work, but in the end it really just felt like a completely pointless addition to my build. For context, I was previously a DEX-based rogue-heavy build with dual wield feats and a downright respectable AB. With 6 APR before Haste, I figured I could utilize the Bleed mechanics to their fullest potential. Before I started playing this character, I couldn't find a good reason to take 4 or 5 levels in the class instead of 3, and then as I was playing with the class and realizing just how negligible the damage it offered truly was, I found myself struggling to justify taking any levels at all. In the end, I dropped the levels from my build entirely and replaced them with something, anything, that gave me a bonus feat.

Class Features
Invisible Blade's mechanics are based around stacking Bleed counters on your enemies, and then using the Eviscerate ability to expend those stacks to deal extra damage. It also has a breach ability, on a 3-minute cooldown, that additionally subjects the target to 20% spell failure (okay, apparently double-checking the wiki it's JUST -5 Lore/UMD, it's even worse than I assumed). There's a third ability, Crippling Throw, which is a ranged touch attack that slows movement speed and adds a negligible amount of bleed stacks - but on top of having an Intelligence-based DC your enemies need to fail, it has truly abysmal range and seems to largely be a waste of time to use.

In fact, all these abilities are sort of a waste of time to use. None of them are instant actions, so your character awkwardly stands around after you trigger it and then spends the next turn executing in slow motion, and then they each go on a considerable cooldown so you just get into the habit of forgetting they exist. The only ability I utilized semi-regularly was Arcane Bleed, saving them for dungeon bosses with damage shields. Functionally, however, it's worse than just using a breach wand because you have to be in melee range and a lot can go wrong when you're in someone's face. If it came to PvP, I wouldn't even slot it in my hot bar.

In order to use these already underwhelming abilities, you have to use weapons that are one size category smaller than your character - thus, your average human can use small weapons, and your average halfling is stuck with tiny weapons. This limits the diversity of one's gear options, if you want to actually perform the features of the class you spent 3-5 levels investing in.

And 5 is the maximum amount of levels you can take in the class, within which all your key abilities are earned by level 3. None of your class abilities are tied to IB levels, except that when you take the full 5 levels, you get a little extra Bleed damage and a little extra Eviscerate damage. Level 4 is a dead level in every sense.

Gameplay
I took IB levels early on, thinking that as a Rogue it might be a nice damage supplement for if I'm ever running solo or if I'm fighting a sneak immune enemy. Turns out, there's considerable overlap between sneak immunity and bleed immunity! And it also turns out that I'd rather experience a kidney stone than solo grind, so that was also never a relevant consideration.

As was mentioned, the IB class features were rarely utilized in my journey. If I triggered Eviscerate on an enemy I was already sneak-attacking, I wouldn't even notice the damage. Breaking stealth for a low-range crippling throw that would miss 7/10 times despite my reliable AB on a touch attack is simply an act of self-harm. I thought Arcane Bleed might be sort of nice for the 20% spell failure chance, but it turns out that aspect of the ability was a hallucination I conjured as a coping mechanism for how pointless the ability is when breach wands are so easily accessible.

The damage is negligible. The abilities are forgettable. I found Dirty Fighting was far more reliable and far less unwieldy, so even though the DC wasn't great for me, I found myself using that ability far more often than any IB skills, simply because it was fun. IB really doesn't add anything fun to the kit. Eviscerate is a trap, because it seems to me that you do much more damage simply letting the Bleed ticks drain your enemy while you take the round you'd otherwise waste on the ability to simply attack.

Through another lens, it also just doesn't add anything new or unique in terms of class mechanics. Functionally speaking, it's no different from playing a rogue. It even synergizes with Rogue in many of its features - features that require Rogue levels to begin with - which, if you look on the Wiki, take up more space on IB's page than the descriptions for IB features do. Since dropping the class out of my build, my play experience is utterly unchanged. If anything, it's improved, because I got one extra feat out of the trade, and when you consider how feat-starved a majority of DEX builds are, this is simply always going to be the superior option.

Roleplay Identity
IB doesn't add much in terms of mechanical identity or variety in play. What's much more egregious, in my eyes, is that it furthermore doesn't add much in terms of roleplay identity. Even with a full five levels in the class, your character will never be recognized as "Joey the Invisible Blade," because there's nothing truly identifiable about IB. You have three combat abilities, a DoT on hit, and that's all there is to it. Compared to the strong identity provided by rogues as the grenadier, the infiltrator, the conniving mercenary - or compare it to taking just 5 levels in another prestige class, like the Shadowdancer with their shadow, or the Blackguard with their backstabbing smites and mastery of fiends, or the Loremaster with their ability to make the game a little less fun for everyone around them. Invisible Blade is, by design, a supplemental class. It doesn't stand on its own, it doesn't contribute anything unique, it's just a new, weird damage delivery vehicle that strikes me almost like a test run for various mechanics that might be implemented elsewhere. It's utterly uninteresting to play, it's sort of impossible to roleplay due to its lack of conceptual substance, and I personally consider it to be a trap.

Missing Pieces
As I mentioned, I'm playing a dual-wielding DEXer. I need feats like I need air to breathe. The fact that IB offers none was essentially the killing blow that eliminated all my interest in sticking with the class. Give level 4 a bonus feat so it's not such a useless level - heck, give it the Rogue bonus feats to make it even more attractive! - and you might even see a little more investment into the class.

Furthermore, the abilities really need to be as instant and easy to use as Dirty Fighting - and the cooldowns could really use some renewed consideration. The breach is simply not useful enough to be locked behind 3 minutes, and the time it takes to activate any of these abilities truly feels like I'm losing more damage than I'm gaining.

In PvE, I kill most of my enemies in 1-3 rounds. My build is so far untested in PvP, but I find most instances of PvP lasts 5 rounds or less. The DoT damage offered by Invisible Blade might be considerable if you stack it up and let it whittle an enemy down, but considering the pace of combat, it literally doesn't have any time to shine at all. I don't do spreadsheet math so maybe I'm just not giving the class's damage its due credit, but I stuck with it for 30 levels and I pretty much never noticed Bleed damage making any difference at all. I kill my enemies at the same pace now as I did then. It needs either more utility for its abilities to make some sort of tangible difference in a fight, or it needs more front-loaded damage. I don't necessarily know that it needs both.

AB or damage bonus or increased crit range on IB-compatible weapons. Right now, you can only be punished for NOT using IB-compatible weapons, rather than inventivised to use the weapons for your class. Graciously being granted access to the abilities you already know as part of taking the class doesn't qualify as a reward, it qualifies as an annoyance. I don't "specialize" in these weapons, I simply forget everything I know about arterial anatomy if I put anything else in my hand.

It needs something identifiably and uniquely IB. Given the name, something involving concealment (maybe +5-10% concealment per class level or something insane like that) or invisibility (greater invisibility on CD) or just something, anything weird and cool with a nifty VFX to demonstrate to an audience that you're a very unique and special snowflake.

In Conclusion
IB is boring and I don't enjoy playing it and to be honest I'm not even exactly sure who this class is meant for. I want an Arcane Trickster, but that doesn't exist (although I have a design doc in progress for how I'd make AT a reality, coming soon to a suggestion box near you). This class isn't even the poor man's Arcane Trickster, it's more like the rich man's Rogue - because only those who are disgustingly wealthy in feats and spreadsheet know-how can reasonably afford to invest in this class. I now know that ain't me.

[Dreams]

When it went in, it was pretty cool. A few changes up and down. Eventually just nerfed and left to be crappy.

[Tarkus the dog]

i think the biggest issue with the invisible blade is that it's hard to balance right given it's key feature -- the bleed, but it could use the following changes:

remove the dirty fighting requirement
buff eviscerate ( there is 0 point to using this ability at all outside of pve maybe, it only gets rid of your stacks. i even run ww attack on invisible blade if possible just to spread out the bleed some more, which can be a nice way to change this ability - on top of the damage dealt with the eviscerate, if the creature dies in the following round it spreads half of its bleed stacks to nearby enemies )
increase crippling throw and arcane bleed's range, especially the arcane bleed. the fact that u need to get in a melee range with someone on an ability that's more or less just a greater breach makes it too situational
remove touch check from arcane bleed ( i dont know why does it have this in the first place given it does the same thing as a breach, bar the once in a life time situation where you'll accidentally inconvenient someone from using a wand/scroll )

[Shadowy Reality]

I played a swash/IB/assassin about a year ago. IB served only as a good BAB class that would help me fill the requirements for assassin and have synergy for blinding speed. I mostly agree with the points raised.

Eviscerate is a trap, I have used it every now and then and was always disappointed, you are better letting your bleed stacks tick.
Arcane Bleed and Crippling throw are okay but do suffer from very being very short range.
Bleeding Wound is almost always irrelevant, why? Because fights with a single enemy don't last enough for it to be useful. The only times I found this doing something was when fighting Big Bosses either solo or with few party members (like Dragons, or other high HP mobs), there you can see the bleed tick up a bit, up to 4o or 50 a round before the enemy dies.

Invisible Blade has the potential to be a class that Rogues/Assassins can rely upon after they can no longer sneak their target. After the initial flurry, Invisible Blade allows them to stack damage despite not being sneaking. It does that, but quite poorly.

The class could be decent if bleed stacks stacked faster, and if Eviscerate wasn't so terrible. This would allow sneakers to be able to keep applying pressure after their initial flurry.

Just compare it to Cavalier, which is also a class you can take very little levels. With 4 levels of Cavalier you get Spirited Charge that gives you AB and a super big damage boost for that one attack and access to Ride AC. For the same invested levels Invisible Blade comes nowhere close to being that useful.

[Svrtr]

I played a swash/IB/assassin about a year ago. IB served only as a good BAB class that would help me fill the requirements for assassin and have synergy for blinding speed. I mostly agree with the points raised.

Eviscerate is a trap, I have used it every now and then and was always disappointed, you are better letting your bleed stacks tick.
Arcane Bleed and Crippling throw are okay but do suffer from very being very short range.
Bleeding Wound is almost always irrelevant, why? Because fights with a single enemy don't last enough for it to be useful. The only times I found this doing something was when fighting Big Bosses either solo or with few party members (like Dragons, or other high HP mobs), there you can see the bleed tick up a bit, up to 4o or 50 a round before the enemy dies.

Invisible Blade has the potential to be a class that Rogues/Assassins can rely upon after they can no longer sneak their target. After the initial flurry, Invisible Blade allows them to stack damage despite not being sneaking. It does that, but quite poorly.

The class could be decent if bleed stacks stacked faster, and if Eviscerate wasn't so terrible. This would allow sneakers to be able to keep applying pressure after their initial flurry.

Just compare it to Cavalier, which is also a class you can take very little levels. With 4 levels of Cavalier you get Spirited Charge that gives you AB and a super big damage boost for that one attack and access to Ride AC. For the same invested levels Invisible Blade comes nowhere close to being that useful.

Do keep in mind though cavalier does lose tumble AC and so if it has a tumble class it is down 2 AC as ride caps at 4 AC

As for the bleed, unfortunately unless janky "Works different in PvP" mechanics are put in, it can too quickly get out of hand in PvP. It ignores traditional DI and DR, and its a fairly high DC to bandage while in combat. If you don't have heal you're needing to use a full resto, not just a lesser resto, and if you DO have heal to bandage you are put in a situation where you are flatfooted and thus now taking sneaks AND more bleed stacks if you fail the DC, a fact made worse that the DC on +10 bandages to make them is now like in the 40s

[Ork]

remove the feat requirement for invisible blade

[miesny_jez]

The IB class in simplest words as it is right now is this: Shit

There is no build you can add it into which would benefit of the class, it's special perk - bleed is irrelevant in Arelith as nothing lives long enough for it to matter at all.

I have experimented with this class as well, though I took the approach of building characters to prolong fights so that the bleed can shine, it just doesn't work.

In basics to get the bleed rolling you need: lots of attacks + hit often but no need for hitting for much.
So I thought.. let's go ultra defensive then, prolong fights to get the bleeds do their jobs.

And here is the crux:
You need 4 Apr pre epic, you need feats for two weapons, you need feats for blind fight, weapon foci and class prereq: 6/7 prepic feats is gone, zero flexibility.

So how about whirlwind attacks to spread the bleeds? Nope doesn't work, also need bonus feats

Cleave/great cleave - you won't have enough AC to survive due to two weapons and ST requirements

Ok use 1 weapon - bleeds adding super slow
Go Monk to get 12 APR - no longer possible on Arelith

Go high DR Dexer EKD? Enemies will kill you faster then the bleeds will kill them. Also whirlwind doesn't spread bleeds.

Epic dodge high Dex builds? Need to take classes for prereqs for epic dodge and, squeeze in 4 Apr and two weapons and still have enough ab/hp/saves to matter. Ultimately taking anything high ab is better then IB in such builds.

Eviscerate is actively working against the class right now, arcane bleed is just worse breach wand, crippling wound.. the only thing which is close to usability but is far to weak to matter.

After trying out the builds on PGCC I came to the conclusion that it is better to take any other melee then IB at the moment.

The concept is maybe good, the execution in current Arelith where everything dies withing 30 to 40 seconds is nonsensical.

[MissEvelyn]

I haven't much to add other than I agree with the sentiments made here, especially after playing through the two different iterations of IB, which, while similar, remain underwhelming to this day.

I think one of the things that could help Bleed would be if it wasn't just based on ticks, but also on movement. So that would look like this: The more a bleeding target moves, the more bleed damage ticks it takes, while at the same time also taking damage from the regular bleeding ticks.

[Dr. B]

I built an Invisible Blade recently and I found myself thoroughly underwhelmed by pretty much every aspect of the class. It's currently about as close as one gets to the "Arcane Trickster" aesthetic,

Spellsword/Rogue dip, my friend.

[magistrasa]

Bladesinger/Rogue dip, my friend.

It is soooo not the same. Maybe this is just my own mental image but I feel like an Arcane Trickster should have casting as a secondary or even tertiary function to sneaky stabby skills. A magic-flavored rogue, as opposed to a rogue-flavored mage. A rogue dip might make a decent build, but when it comes to the desired aesthetic it just doesn't cut it; and on the other hand, a bladesinger dip is a poison pill. The essence of the Arcane Trickster aesthetic simply isn't represented.

Not that this has anything to do with IB at the end of the day because that's simply not what IB is trying to be and doesn't meaningfully speak towards the core topic of discussion and this is an unhelpful non-sequitur - so I'll just cut this irrelevant digression short and simply say, "Pass."

[Waldo52]

If the Invisible Blade fails to meet expectations vis a vis the whole arcane trickster/magical sneak concept, I don't really think that was the intent of the class. I do care a lot about having some kind of magical rogue added to the game and I feel like the OP ought to start a thread on the subject. But I doubt the IB will ever cover that niche, which is fine.

In terms of actual feedback, I have quite a bit.

First, damage always feels weak when compared to other rogue multiclass options. The fighter 6 /ogue 24 spread ends up with 12d6 sneak attack damage, plus another 4 from weapon specialization. That's 46 sneak attack damage from class features before the weapon, and a reliable 4 damage that works regardless of sneak attacking. The blackguard 5/rogue does 49 sneak attack damage on average and a blackguard 6/rogue 24 can do a bit more (at least with the main hand) when sneak attacking. a decent chunk of which comes from curse weapon which does even better than weapon specialization in terms of doing more damage when not sneaking. Rogue 25/IB 5 is at the bottom of the barrel in terms of damage. It's 13d6 sneak attack nets an average of 45.5 damage which is superficially similar to the fighter spread until you realize it's not only a hair lower under ideal circumstances but provides no extra damage when sneak attack is not applicable.

Loosing the damage olympics wouldn't be such a big deal if the IB was great at other stuff, but it really isn't.

Bleeding Wounds and Attritional Combat

In theory the class seems designed for battles of attrition, but AC is dismal without shield use. As mentioned by other posters, battles tend to be very short on NWN in general. An older rogue character of mine that was somewhat decently tooled out and only slightly suboptimal in terms of build reached his pinnacle at 61 AC. Sure, I could have gotten it slightly higher. But he was quickly killed in most level 30 PVP encounters. I couldn't have imagined him trying to play a game of slow bleeding wound attrition against most characters with AC like that, nevermind with the hit that would come from not having a shield. I feel like something as fragile as the IB is going to be fighting an uphill battle if it wants to engage in slow attritional combats, especially in a game that does not promote this playstyle for characters in general.

The slow bleed them to death angle is a cool one, and I applaud the team for adding something unique. I would be fine with BW being left unchanged if the class was better at other stuff, and it was considered a nice little freebee that we weren't supposed to depend on. I would also be fine with it if it was being buffed very, very significantly. I would be fine with it if eviscerate was just that good. But in its current state when I look at bleed all I can think is "I'm giving up weapon specialization and three additional feats for THIS?

Class Abilities in General

Arcane bleed is a lot of fun, but maybe it could be an instant action. Again, slow paced combat doesn't seem to work for this class. The ability to strip wards off of enemies as a non-caster is flavorful, unique and potentially powerful. But it doesn't seem to do enough fast enough to feel all that special.

Eviscerate, as mentioned above, feels weak.

Crippling throw can be fun, but unless I'm mistaken it doesn't actually cause slow spell style buffs. It's just a reduction in movement speed. We're not a class that does well with ranged combat, so the only real use of this ability is escaping from bullies.

Feat Economy

Enough said.

Rogue Synergies

They're cool, but maybe they should go a little further. Having a sneak attack progression or adding rogue feats would work wonders. Continuing the grenade progression as though IB levels were rogue levels would be awesome.

Capstone Abilities

Often when a class reaches maximum level something awesome happens. I feel like this isn't the case for the Invisible Blade. As a rogue player it's basically a level 29 discipline dump.

A Possible Solution: Invisible Blades As Eclectics

The Invisible Blade wants to do a lot of things. It wants to be a super-rogue, but does pretty badly offensively and defensively compared to other rogues and does nothing to improve class staples like sneak attacks and grenades. It wants to kill things slowly, but dies particularly quickly in a game where everyone dies quickly. Then it tries to quickly eviscerate things that it was trying to kill slowly, and does this poorly as well. The invisible blade relies on feat intensive fighting styles but gets no bonus combat feats. The class is fairly confused in terms of its general direction.

Why not just embrace this reality and make it the Loremaster of light weapons? The loremaster is a brilliant class because it grants all sorts of wildly different discoveries to support different play styles. It's extremely eclectic and grants all sorts of perks from some HP/AC/AB to magical abilities and exploration XP bonuses. I would love if the actual role of the invisible blade (bleed damage fighter, random stat goodie collector, eviscerate master, grenade specialist, feat collector) was open to interpretation in the form of an options based system.

Possible Examples of Invisible Blade "Discoveries":

-Brutal Evisceration: Evisceration adds sneak attack damage

-Shield Use: Shield Proficiency

-Sheer Force: Invisible Blades can access class abilities with weapons up to one size larger, and does an additional 2 damage while using any finesse weapon.

-Sneak Training: Improved Sneak Attack

-Arcane Study: Arcane Bleed strips one additional magical effect off of opponents. Grants +5 to Lore and UMD

-Grenade Mastery: IB levels count as rogue levels for the purposes of grenades

-Bleed Mastery: +1 to all bleed damage. Can be selected multiple times.

-Crippling Throw Mastery: Range and duration of crippling strike doubled. Effects mirror the effects of a Slow spell.

I have spent a long time Rambling. TL;DR: The Invisible Blade is weak. I think it would benefit from straight up buffs, new abilities or an options based feat system. The very role of the IB is a bit vague and confused, but it would make sense as an open ended "take what you want" class.

[Yvesza]

The issue is that 5 fighter is vastly more useful to any build than 5 invisible blade.

3 feats and 1 AC for a fighter versus two okay abilities and the sadness that is eviscerate. Only the bleed really does much and compared with fighter it's generally less effective in pretty much any scenario that isn't solo fighting yellow name enemies. Everything else dies too quickly. Or it's undead, or an elemental which given that IB wants to pair up with rogue makes them even worse at things they're already bad at.

IB has worse saves for classes that want it.
Classes that want IB also generally have access to tumble.

Most of what the class -wants- to do, 5 fighter does better. Which generally becomes 6 fighter anyway for the extra feat.

[Dr. B]

Bladesinger/Rogue dip, my friend.

It is soooo not the same. Maybe this is just my own mental image but I feel like an Arcane Trickster should have casting as a secondary or even tertiary function to sneaky stabby skills. A magic-flavored rogue, as opposed to a rogue-flavored mage. A rogue dip might make a decent build, but when it comes to the desired aesthetic it just doesn't cut it; and on the other hand, a bladesinger dip is a poison pill. The essence of the Arcane Trickster aesthetic simply isn't represented.

I'm playing one of these and it's ten times closer to the arcane trickster archetype than your invisible blade wannabe will ever be. You can grab greater skill focus: illusion and run endless color sprays to bewilder foes and long lasting invisibilities to layer on top of stealth. With 20 int you can maximize several rogue skills. You can eschew combat-centered feats and load up on epic skill focuses in rogue skills. Autoquicken III makes you a slippery little escape artist who can just Time Stop and run off the second things get dicey. As for stabby skills? You're a spellsword.

[magistrasa]

It's certainly closer to the archetype than your invisible blade

man whys every little thing gotta turn into an argument on this site

[Dr. B]

It's certainly closer to the archetype than your invisible blade

man whys every little thing gotta turn into an argument on this site

....not to mention serene visage to beef up your disguises, wraith stride to seamlessly run through people, solipsism to trick people into oblivion. Invisible blade, an arcane trickster?!?! BAHAHAHAH.

[magistrasa]

Invisible blade, an arcane trickster?!?! BAHAHAHAH.

What is compelling you to get so defensive in response the bland statement that the class you are describing is simply not the vision I am looking for? Why are you trying to start an argument with somebody who has already essentially agreed with your point?

I want an Arcane Trickster, but that doesn't exist [...]. This class isn't even the poor man's Arcane Trickster

Not that this has anything to do with IB at the end of the day because that's simply not what IB is trying to be

Bro, read the title of the thread. I'm repeatedly saying this isn't the point of the topic but for some reason you just keep trying to push a point that I'm literally not even fighting you on. Apparently I just should have ignored you when you first posted instead of expecting a modicum of self-awareness from a stranger on the internet.

I'm sorry if I actually hurt your feelings, I thought you were joking but I promise I didn't mean to belittle you or anything. That said, this is pointless and dumb and also very much not the place for such a conversation. @ forum mods I'm sorry for napalming my own thread, please clean up this clownery

[Dr. B]

...NOT TO MENTION that disjunction can do everything Arcane Bleed does and more. Invisible Blade, closer to the archetype than Spellsword?? SERIOUSLY?!

And yes, I am joking, but I still disagree with you on that.

[miesny_jez]

@Dr.B you did read what magistrasa was saying? /Facepalm

As for the IB, I don't think that in current Arelith a class that strength is a prolonged fight has any sense to be honest.

I kinda would like to see it to be an alternative to a WM but not really sure how can you compete with something as bursty as WM in an environment which incentives bursty big damage hits. If the server would be overloaded with DI and DR then maybe but it isn't obviously.

Maybe make the bleeds actually do a stacking DI reduction on the target errhh with no cap?

Then the eviscerate does start to have some sense. But still doubt that would be enough due to other points raised.

I just scratch my head and try to find an identity for this and I keep on failing.

Debuffer class we already have Hexblades and Bard's
Big damage bursts that's WMs, cots, blackguards, barbs etc.
Arcane mixers that's spellswords, warlocks,hex
Stealth combat, that's rogues, shadowdancers
Assassination obviously assasins

Invisible Blade so something which strikes from surprise? Something which just happens out of nowhere.

Should be probably opposite to what we have to be honest - upfront burst and not stacking tickling debuffs that can be removed (and fully healed) with one greater restoration cast/pray.

Or maybe some kind of attacks happening out of regular combat in a sense of "surprise!" Something which explodes with damage on attacks of opportunity?

[Inordinate]

Currently playing one, having trialed it a lot on PGCC and gathered feedback from others who used full builds on live. Mostly echoing what's already been said but I figure adding another person to the list means it's more likely to be taken seriously and actually actioned upon. I want to love this class, I really do, but it needs helps.

Feats
IB definitely could use some bonus feat selections, whether it's rogue list or not I'm not sure. IB working with non-rogue chassis as well would be an ideal scenario, but it needs bonus feats of SOME kind. Taking it on rogue with the recent feat change really sucks and taking it on anyone else really limits your options for a class that arguably demands you take all 5 levels to get the most of the class slot investment (vs. loremaster which a lot of builds can stop at 4, even 3 arguably).

Skills
The skills it has access to are available to the other classes that might want to take it, so it only serves as a pre-epic BAB boost and a Disc dump at 29 for rogues or otherwise just lets you get 3-5 levels of skill progress at level ranges where those skills don't matter as much. Giving it UMD might make it more appealing since it gives access to Disc and Tumble for classes they don't already have them, just to spitball an idea.

Crippling Throw
Full Round Action + Comically Short Range = difficult to actually use. You have to apply it in practically melee distance to ensure a target doesn't escape you and it is functionally useless in stopping someone you're chasing if you're not right on their heels.

Arcane Bleed
Full Round Action really interrupts your flow if you choose the wrong flurry to activate it on. It's very useful, I'd even say the thing holding this class up right now. Either make it instant or have it take effect 3 seconds after it is activated so that you can at least still keep up the pressure and continue to apply bleeding aka the entire point of the class.

Eviscerate
Very little needs to be said here, it's unironically ignorable as a class feat and it may as well not even exist. On top of all this the fact it shares its cooldown with dirty fighting, the class's requirement, means you're actively HURTING yourself by using it in its current state.

Bleeding Wound
This is a highly experimental and off-the-wall thought, but what if the bleed damage was every 3 seconds instead of per round? If the damage were adjusted accordingly, would that make it 'feel' better to use so that the bleeds actually have some impact? Keeping the scaling as-is would make IB a nightmare in this scenario but lowering the damage scaling might make this a viable option. Thoughts?

[Heroic Spirit]

Bleeding Wound
This is a highly experimental and off-the-wall thought, but what if the bleed damage was every 3 seconds instead of per round? If the damage were adjusted accordingly, would that make it 'feel' better to use so that the bleeds actually have some impact? Keeping the scaling as-is would make IB a nightmare in this scenario but lowering the damage scaling might make this a viable option. Thoughts?

This is exactly what I brought up to one of the devs in Discord. Faster ticks feel better, even if the power is reduced to compensate.

I'm a huge fan of IB and I've been wanting some form of adjustment for them - I've made a few suggestions, but the board doesn't seem to see any movement.

I'm not going to get into the clunkiness of Crippling Throw or Arcane Bleed; enough has been said.

Eviscerate, if molded properly, could become the bread and butter of the class.

1) Damage scaling based on stats (like current) + add scaling based on the target's health %.
This just makes the ability a finisher.

2) An opener that deals a bit of burst and applies damage vulnerability to bleed and physical.

3) Eviscerate becomes the gateway to cause bleeding. Where damaging accumulates wounds and eviscerate causes the wounds to open for the bleed dot (at a 3 second interval)

[MRFTW]

I think the best build I've ever played, numerically, was a monk 20 / IB 5 / EKD 5, dual wielding katars. It either spreads AoE bleeds with good AC and whirlwind attack, or activates imp. Expertise and fishes for 20s with an impressive AC and epic dodge. In the latter mode, bleeds slowly stack while maintaining impressive defences which make it an excellent boss soloist (if it bleeds). I'm not sure if it still works today.

I agree with the general sentiment that IB could do with more oomph, but it's worth noting that any 6 APR build, regardless of AB, can stack bleeds pretty reliably and to a level that nothing in PvE that's able to bleed can really deal with it. Bearing both these in mind, I think it'd be reasonable to front-load a bit (a lot? idk) of IB's power with the cost of a bleed cap. Eviscerate could cause the IB to deal triple bleed stacks for 1-2 rounds after use, for example, but bleeds can never do more than 12*IB level damage per round.

Balance wise, a full stack would be 600 damage over 1 minute, which is a steady amount of pressure, but nowhere near the level of a free-hitting warlock or WM. FTR / IB / WM might be a concern, but I doubt it without a +5.

This would add variance to the playstyle as the player could decide if they want to try to maintain the bleed stack cap on a few enemies, or focus on eviscerating their main target and rebuilding their stacks. It'd also facilitate the removal of bleed counters entirely, which would be a good move. The healing kit DC for clearing bleeds is far too low, and while I agree with the in-universe reasons for having kits counter bleed, it's simply too accessible of a counter, as is greater restoration, which any PvP build can and should have. The healing alone from healing kits is a balanced counter to bleeds, and is a good use of action economy in longer skirmishes which is really the only time the DoT from bleeding would ever be a relevant factor.

Edit to add: I also think the bleeding wound + whirlwind attack interaction should be a heavily pushed part of the class, maybe even to the extent of giving WWA at IB level 5. As it stands it's an annoyingly difficult choice to build into, but very worth it if you can. It'd be nice if that was more widely spread without such a brutal feat tax, since you want to use IB in feat-starved combinations already.

[Svrtr]

As is, with how sad low AC builds are these days (ones thatbuild for DI/DR and/or regen such as barb), this would admittedly be part of a reason I would be hesitant to buff such. They are granted already in such a sad state when they are outdone by someone just clicking IE in many cases, and that DI/DR don't reduce bleed damage is sorrowful.

I say this as someone who isn't even playing such a build but loves the bruiser concept. I would support IB buffs or improvements personally otherwise if at least DI could reduce damage from bleed stacks once more as else they just get stupidly high stack values because they can't reduce the attack numbers with their low AC and their schtick to survive is utterly ignored by bleeds.

Granted I weep for DR builds without AC in general. I'm rooting for you and 2h builds without AC whose damage gain isn't worth the loss in AC these days.

Also a bonus feat at IB 5 would go a long way as said. PDK could use a similar such bonus feat, doubly so since its feat requirement is one not granted by another class like how rogue gets DF for free at rogue 4

[Heroic Spirit]

As is, with how sad low AC builds are these days (ones thatbuild for DI/DR and/or regen such as barb), this would admittedly be part of a reason I would be hesitant to buff such. They are granted already in such a sad state when they are outdone by someone just clicking IE in many cases, and that DI/DR don't reduce bleed damage is sorrowful.

A good middle ground here is probably reducing the speed that bleed stacks by DR in some way. But honestly, the server doesn't support 2h well. That said, I wouldn't want to gate IB because of that singular instance.

...I think it'd be reasonable to front-load a bit (a lot? idk) of IB's power with the cost of a bleed cap. Eviscerate could cause the IB to deal triple bleed stacks for 1-2 rounds after use, for example, but bleeds can never do more than 12*IB level damage per round.

The idea of front-loading the bleed is cool and quickly ramping up to 60 damage definitely gives it stopping power.

[Dreams]

If I were to redesign it, I’d be looking at it like this:

• Every successful hit with a edged weapon does 1 stack of bleed damage
• Bleed stacks become 5 flat bleed damage
• Bleed stacks cap at 12 stacks (60 bleed damage per round)
• Eviscerate becomes an instant active and just detonates as a finishing move dealing 2x Active Stacks as bleed damage (maximum is 120 bleed damage)

Damage immunities and resistances will slow down the damage. Heal kit or Resto/Gr Resto to remove the bleeding property 1 round later, giving a chance to trigger the eviscerate before the stacks are lost.

Make it require 5 levels to get the eviscerate trigger. 3 levels gets you stacks with 1 damage, 4 levels gets you stacks with 3 damage, 5 levels gets you stacks with 5 damage.

Seems strong but in reality it isn’t great, just a cool little gimmick to build a character around. The whole problem is that this is the sort of class you build the entire rest of the character for, instead of being something that compliments what a character already is.

[TurningLeaf]

Good for boss fights, not bad for pvp. Would definitely consider for a dual wield rogue so that when you draw aggro your damage doesn't totally disappear. Doesn't seem to be the most efficient answer to anything but good enough to use as flavor without totally gimping a build.