Eira wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 10:18 am
Just to be the annoying lore guy here, there are european-style dnd monks. One example that comes to mind is a wrestling order of oghma who are monks and duel among themselves for knowledge, who gets the best jobs, etc. And they'd even welcome challengers to their libraries (such as in the case of the Cleric Quintet, long before 5e) to duel with them for said knowledge.
When I think "European-style monks" I don't exactly picture a group of wrinkled nerds who solve their arguments with Jiu-Jitsu and are famously liberal about their library access. It's also not remotely the aesthetic the monk update seems like it's trying to capture in its Franciscan-inspired branch of the design. Ironically, I think you're reinforcing RedGiant's critique of the new design with your response.
The original example you're quoting is more highlighting the stark divide between D&D monks in their original design, and the new direction the class seems to be taking. In that original design, and in the lore example you provided, the class is conceptualized around a martial, physical foundation. The monk is a philosopher-warrior. The monk is an intellectual wrestler. Their primary method of engagement with the world is through physical combat. That's what they focus on, that's what they develop, that's what they do. The new update strips down this defining element and makes what was once the foundation of its identity more of an optional element of their design. Now your monk can engage with the world through psychic powers, or purely serve to supplement another class's abilities with study and prayer. Rather than incorporating other interpretations of its aesthetic, it is remade from the ground up to capture the image of ultimate versatility. That's probably the sharpest departure from the original concept that we've ever seen for any class on Arelith.
Speaking broadly - and I said as much in the monk feedback thread - I don't mind these kinds of drastic changes when they serve to enhance the roleplay experience. There's a lot great ideas from 5e, both in terms of lore and design, that I wish we were more open to. Disentangling paladins from deities and alignment to instead conceptualize them as ideological paragons who draw strength from their convictions, even if those convictions guide them towards cruelty and hate, is a future I long to see for the server because I think that will open up a lot of interesting roleplay (and I'm sure the current LG paladins would be happy to no longer get judged and policed by our sometimes vindictive community who convince each other that Sir Smites-A-Lot should be stripped of levels by the DMs for "not behaving the way a paladin should," whatever the hell that means to them). By-and-large, many of our class updates have served to broaden the potential of roleplay, and this makes me happy to trust the team's decisions in what they pursue next. Naturally, not everything they've done is perfect; Shamans are a point of annoyance for me because very few people understand or care to explore the implications of "speaking with spirits" and there is little guidance on the metaphysical mechanisms that empower the class in a way that is meaningfully different from a Druid, which leads to everyone roleplaying the class completely differently, if they bother roleplaying the class at all, since a lot of people just take the class because it's the strongest summoner on the market. And the identity of the two different Invoker styles... I don't want to even begin to broach that mess. Even with my personal gripes, the roleplay on the server is better for the variety of options that players are given to work with and build their concepts off of.
I think there's something to be said about incongruous design elements clashing with one another when you have 5e-inspired design leaving the old 3e designs in the dust, or those different classes being difficult to pair together simply because of their unwieldy mechanical differences. I agree with the sentiment that a lot of these new base classes should probably have been implemented as paths or prestige classes to respect and even enhance the core identities of the classes that otherwise inspired them. Elementalist as a PRC heavily marketed towards Sorcerers? Spellsword as a PRC to build off the Wizard? Swashbuckler as a Rogue path? Blackguard and a Hexblade PRC synergizing well with Warlock to give new gish build options? Loremaster deleted?
One thing I will say about the new classes as a point of criticism: I wish they didn't demand pureclassing to be remotely effective. The way many of the old classes are designed (with the obvious exception of full casters), you could mix and match a variety of different classes in some pretty fun and unique ways, even if not necessarily powerful ways. This is mainly because a lot of them were front-loaded in design, where the defining elements of their identities were earned in early levels with the expectation that most campaigns would cap off at level 10, or rarely 20. Lots of the new classes don't feel like they really "come online" until you've taken epic levels with them, leaving little leeway for creative combinations. I feel Hexblade is the most egregious example of this, if only because it's the class aesthetic I most strongly wish could be incorporated into various character concepts in a viable way. The way these high-investment classes allow their players to feel "unique" when compared to one another is often through modular design, which... I mean it's fine... It's just not as fun as building some wacky 12/7/11 class combo to perfectly capture some niche character concept that can still function perfectly well out in the world. This is much less of an issue with prestige classes, which already expect weird level spreads and take that into consideration within their design. Shout out to Vigilante, which is probably the best custom PRC the server has cooked up.
To summarize my thoughts:
- Eira has an opinion, which is utterly unforgivable
- Monk is being made unrecognizable, which has never happened to another class before
- Sweeping class changes are fine when they encourage better roleplay
- More PRCs would be welcome as an alternative to base classes
- Delete Loremaster