Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

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Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Alyxnia » Thu May 18, 2023 9:01 pm

I would like to take a moment to share my concerns regarding the sweeping class changes on the server over the past few years. While I understand the desire to improve and balance gameplay, I believe that the current direction of these changes deviates from the core mechanics of 3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons and the established setting of Forgotten Realms during the 3.5 era.

The most concerning aspect of these changes lies in the alterations made to classes such as the Cleric, Paladin, and the upcoming changes to the Monk. These modifications seem to be attempting to incorporate mechanics from the 5th edition of the game, which fundamentally differ from the 3.5 edition. This attempt to shoehorn 5th edition mechanics into a 3.5 edition game disrupts the balance and design philosophy of the original system.

In 3.5e, class design focused on the idea of basic classes with customization options provided through the use of prestige classes. These prestige classes allowed players to tailor their characters to specific roles and playstyles while maintaining balance and adhering to the 3.5 mechanics. However, the changes I've mentioned have not focused instead on adding a plethora of 'Paths' to various classes, instead of adding additional prestige classes.

Rather than introducing new prestige classes, which could seamlessly fit within the existing mechanics and lore of the setting, the focus seems to be on making significant changes to core classes. This approach not only unbalances the game but also creates a cascading effect of follow-up changes to other classes. This constant upheaval of class mechanics disrupts the established gameplay and character development, potentially alienating long-time players who have grown accustomed to the 3.5e experience or who have had characters rendered non-functional due to these repeated changes to what should be a more or less immutable bedrock of core class mechanics.

A more prudent approach would be to introduce additional prestige classes that align with the desired mechanics. It is highly likely that suitable prestige classes already exist in the published content by Wizards of the Coast. This approach would allow players to continue enjoying the rich variety of options provided by prestige classes, without sacrificing the integrity of the 3.5 edition mechanics or further disrupting established characters with repeated changes to the base classes and mechanics.

In summary, I urge the development team of the Arelith server to strongly reconsider the current direction of repeated sweeping class changes. By focusing on the inclusion of prestige classes rather than attempting to blend 5th edition mechanics into a 3.5 edition game, the server can maintain balance, preserve the fundamental design philosophy of 3.5, and provide players with a wide range of character customization options.

Thank you for your attention to this matter, and I hope that my feedback will be taken into consideration.

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Richrd » Thu May 18, 2023 9:19 pm

A valiant appeal and I agree with almost everything here. But I don't think the dev team will listen and consider this feedback in any significant way.

That is because they have a clear path they want to go forward on and what you are suggesting here is for them to do a 180 and stop. This is not going to happen.

Arelith is simply Arelith. Everybody is extra special, tons of unbelievable power creep (both IC and mechanically) and very high fantasy, even far beyond what could be considered the standard for FR. Sweeping mechanical changes that edge the server closer and closer to a 5e-esque experience are just to be expected at this point because 5e supports exactly that. Everybody is special, base classes galore, all the things you mentioned, Alyxnia.

For those who like all that Arelith is great and is only becoming better. But for those like us who don't roll so well with all these changes? Well, you can always find greener pastures.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Ork » Thu May 18, 2023 11:15 pm

I don't really agree with this stance, especially because 3.5 did their own wonky mechanics that aren't balanced by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think arelith should be beholden to a specific system of play, NWN certainly never was with their alternations in combat manuevers, skill additions, and feat/class changes.

Arelith has taken a life of its own, and the developers are doing what any good tabletop DM would do - get inspired from other media. 5e has its advantages, and I'd even wish we could move towards a pathfinderesque model of gameplay.

I am hesitant about the monk change, but my objections weren't really founded in any rational stance but more an emotional one. I understand if you've a monk character that this upcoming release of monk might break what you love about that character. It sucks. It happened to me. I think it's happened to everyone here. They're doing it right though, and going through the change methodically and relying on player input/giving us opportunity to trial the class prior to release on PGCC. We can't ask more of them in how they implement this change, honestly.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri May 19, 2023 2:01 am

I've mixed feelings about it myself. I very much agree that Prestige Classes would be a much cleaner and 3.5-friendly approach to a lot of the custom content. NWN2 and the number of custom content there shows that it's possible to enrich the game with plenty of custom classes, while keeping the integrity of the base classes.

And, at the same time, I've been having a positive and enjoyable experience here playing through the custom content. It's a little exciting to imagine what the talented and creative dev team can come up with next.

However, echoing what's already been said before, I relate and empathize with the partial loss of character identity due to sweeping class changes. It can leave you with a bitter taste, especially if your character's identity relies on its class, as is often the case for innatists like Sorcerers.

Richrd voiced concerns that very much resonate with how I feel about all the special, monster-like races. How Arelith has very much moved towards a more accepting stance of tieflings and other previously feared races. I think it's a shame, as it takes away from the "being special" if your horned, winged, tailed, quasi-monstrous looking humanoid is accepted and treated just like everyone else. If everyone is a re-skinned human, where is the fun in that?
The opportunity to take from a deep font of FR lore and knowledge and apply it to your unusual humanoid crumbles when race doesn't matter.

But I digress. The original poster no doubt means to point out mechanical differences between Arelith and 3.5, but I'd argue the roleplaying culture overall has shifted as well to be more like 5e than 3.5.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Xerah » Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 am

Locking yourself to 3.5 rules (which is a departure from NWN as it is 3e) is a really foolish game design decision. There’s no logical reason to not use other good ideas

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Hazard » Sat May 20, 2023 5:29 pm

Xerah wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 am

Locking yourself to 3.5 rules (which is a departure from NWN as it is 3e) is a really foolish game design decision. There’s no logical reason to not use other good ideas

The server is (was) for many, many years advertised as a 3.5ed roleplaying experience.

Your opinion on what is foolish and what is good, is not everyone's opinion. There are a lot of people who prefer 3.5, just as there are people who prefer 5. (No one prefers 4).

It makes more sense for people to want to remain in 3.5 when they were sold a 3.5 experience, than it makes sense for people to advocate a change away from it, when that was not what they came here and invested years into this place for.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Morgy » Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm

I like some of the ideas in this post, though I think flexibility is quite important for fun. I do prefer prestige class introductions personally, rather than entire new classes.

As an aside, I don't think calling someone's politely posted idea 'foolish' is very community friendly.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat May 20, 2023 7:33 pm

Some 5e lore is pretty okay too but....

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Xerah » Sat May 20, 2023 8:33 pm

Hazard wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 5:29 pm
Xerah wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 am

Locking yourself to 3.5 rules (which is a departure from NWN as it is 3e) is a really foolish game design decision. There’s no logical reason to not use other good ideas

The server is (was) for many, many years advertised as a 3.5ed roleplaying experience.

Your opinion on what is foolish and what is good, is not everyone's opinion.

It is objectively foolish to not use a good idea because it was made in a later system. That's not really an opinion. There was no judgment on making more prestige classes, which is a fine a idea and what the recommendation is really about.

Regardless of all that, it still uses 3.0 framework, the ideas have just been applied in that system. For example, you can complain about paladins using 5e oaths, but they could have just been done in an existing 3.0 game as a house rule (which is exactly what happened). It's still a 3.5e roleplaying experience.

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Hazard » Sat May 20, 2023 8:36 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 8:33 pm

... good ... That's not really an opinion.

'Good' is a value judgement. That's what makes it an opinion.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 20, 2023 9:28 pm

You can use that value judgement to come up with a rational conclusion though.

It would make for an interesting poll, even if that is not all inclusive, but I think the vast majority of players who play arelith like class changes and don't care what version it's from. It keeps casuals coming back to try the new thing, I'm almost certain of that. Hell, even people who have complained in the moment about specific changes like Ork and I have said they like changes, sometimes they just hit hard when you are enjoying a character and now you have to reimagine it. So, while I understand the side that wants a more streamlined game that we all know and love from 2002, I am almost certain they are the overwhelming minority on the server.

So, if your goal is to keep people playing, and my statement about most folks appreciating the changes is correct, it would be foolish to not take advantage of a development team that wants to execute those changes while you have access to them.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Eyeliner » Sat May 20, 2023 9:53 pm

I'm curious how popular 3.5 still is. Playing D&D online was absolutely the draw that brought me here the first time I played in the 2000s. But 3 and 3.5 and the variants were D&D at the time. I haven't played PnP for years so is that version of D&D still relevant? I'm asking because I don't know, that's not rhetorical-- I just assume if I went looking for a game it's likely they'd be playing what's current.

I'd probably prefer this still felt like 3.5 D&D instead of a homebrew MMO but I don't expect anything to change so I'm not taking up that fight. I also doubt much I'd start playing today since the mechanics have drifted so far. But people are still arriving so obviously there's appeal.

Morgy wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm

As an aside, I don't think calling someone's politely posted idea 'foolish' is very community friendly.

Totally agree...


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat May 20, 2023 10:48 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 7:33 pm

Some 5e lore is pretty okay too but....

Let's be fair, it is. They tried to heavily clean up the mess 4e left behind, and they kind of succeeded.

But latest publications haven't been amazing. Our own tabletop DM, who is running Descent into Avernus, has said it's the most time and energy intensive module he's had to prep, because it's riddled with inconsistencies, break of continuity, and apparently outright lore that the writers got wrong. Our DM has still managed to pull off the campaign wonderfully but has also recommended anyone spending money to stay away from that one.

And other DM friends of mine have voiced similarly about the most recent modules and campaigns.


But all in all? I'm glad Arelith deviated off the official timeline, whilst keeping and expanding on our own island lore.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by RedGiant » Sat May 20, 2023 10:49 pm

I have stated my concerns elsewhere, most recently here and here.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=41806&start=50
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=41818&start=25

My biggest concern is that we continue to play DnD. I am not worried about worthy incorporation of good 5e ideas, such as oaths for paladins and infinite cantrips/signature spells for wizards. What is worrisome is when developer ideas veer into "we are playing another game" territory.

Arelith has thrived and outlived many servers, not just on the unquestioned ingenuity of its staff, but also by presenting a low bar to entry and a classic DnD experience. I do worry this is something that can be killed, intentionally or not.

Respectfully, there is at least one 0/96 server out there right now that was made by an Arelithian Admin Emeritus that didn't like DnD.

Returning to problem at hand and the OP, the most salient example on the table right now for me is monk. I would argue, keep monks as DnD monks. If you want to play a European monastic, there are cleric paths, commoners, specialists, and lore masters...all of which...or even some combination thereof...which scratch that itch.

tl;dr Pls keep Arelith DnD.

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sun May 21, 2023 7:42 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 10:48 pm
In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 7:33 pm

Some 5e lore is pretty okay too but....

Let's be fair, it is. They tried to heavily clean up the mess 4e left behind, and they kind of succeeded.

But latest publications haven't been amazing. Our own tabletop DM, who is running Descent into Avernus, has said it's the most time and energy intensive module he's had to prep, because it's riddled with inconsistencies, break of continuity, and apparently outright lore that the writers got wrong. Our DM has still managed to pull off the campaign wonderfully but has also recommended anyone spending money to stay away from that one.

And other DM friends of mine have voiced similarly about the most recent modules and campaigns.


But all in all? I'm glad Arelith deviated off the official timeline, whilst keeping and expanding on our own island lore.

When I'm thinking of cool 5e lore, I was especially thinking Thayans, but I might just be saying that because the DND movie made them look really cool and evil.

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Eira » Sun May 21, 2023 10:18 am

RedGiant wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 10:49 pm

Returning to problem at hand and the OP, the most salient example on the table right now for me is monk. I would argue, keep monks as DnD monks. If you want to play a European monastic, there are cleric paths, commoners, specialists, and lore masters...all of which...or even some combination thereof...which scratch that itch.

Just to be the annoying lore guy here, there are european-style dnd monks. One example that comes to mind is a wrestling order of oghma who are monks and duel among themselves for knowledge, who gets the best jobs, etc. And they'd even welcome challengers to their libraries (such as in the case of the Cleric Quintet, long before 5e) to duel with them for said knowledge.

There are specific decisions being made to not go along with 5e, especially in regards to what hasn't yet happened in lore, but others, while resembling things that became popular in 5e, already existed with examples in canon.

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun May 21, 2023 10:32 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 7:42 am

When I'm thinking of cool 5e lore, I was especially thinking Thayans, but I might just be saying that because the DND movie made them look really cool and evil.

They did look really cool, though they are very different from where they were in 3.0/3.5. And honestly the 3.0 version is likely better for a nwn persistant world, because they are a subtle evil trying to fit in the world as a respected nation at that point.

That being said, it wouldn't be hard to move them to look more like the thayans in the movie, since the events that were shown in the movie on how Tam rose from just being one of the Zulkirs to the necromancer overlord of Thay happened in 1375, meaning we are not far away if that whole idea behind pushing time forward around the world too becomes the thing it was presented to be a year or so ago now.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by magistrasa » Sun May 21, 2023 12:20 pm

Eira wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 10:18 am

Just to be the annoying lore guy here, there are european-style dnd monks. One example that comes to mind is a wrestling order of oghma who are monks and duel among themselves for knowledge, who gets the best jobs, etc. And they'd even welcome challengers to their libraries (such as in the case of the Cleric Quintet, long before 5e) to duel with them for said knowledge.

When I think "European-style monks" I don't exactly picture a group of wrinkled nerds who solve their arguments with Jiu-Jitsu and are famously liberal about their library access. It's also not remotely the aesthetic the monk update seems like it's trying to capture in its Franciscan-inspired branch of the design. Ironically, I think you're reinforcing RedGiant's critique of the new design with your response.

The original example you're quoting is more highlighting the stark divide between D&D monks in their original design, and the new direction the class seems to be taking. In that original design, and in the lore example you provided, the class is conceptualized around a martial, physical foundation. The monk is a philosopher-warrior. The monk is an intellectual wrestler. Their primary method of engagement with the world is through physical combat. That's what they focus on, that's what they develop, that's what they do. The new update strips down this defining element and makes what was once the foundation of its identity more of an optional element of their design. Now your monk can engage with the world through psychic powers, or purely serve to supplement another class's abilities with study and prayer. Rather than incorporating other interpretations of its aesthetic, it is remade from the ground up to capture the image of ultimate versatility. That's probably the sharpest departure from the original concept that we've ever seen for any class on Arelith.

Speaking broadly - and I said as much in the monk feedback thread - I don't mind these kinds of drastic changes when they serve to enhance the roleplay experience. There's a lot great ideas from 5e, both in terms of lore and design, that I wish we were more open to. Disentangling paladins from deities and alignment to instead conceptualize them as ideological paragons who draw strength from their convictions, even if those convictions guide them towards cruelty and hate, is a future I long to see for the server because I think that will open up a lot of interesting roleplay (and I'm sure the current LG paladins would be happy to no longer get judged and policed by our sometimes vindictive community who convince each other that Sir Smites-A-Lot should be stripped of levels by the DMs for "not behaving the way a paladin should," whatever the hell that means to them). By-and-large, many of our class updates have served to broaden the potential of roleplay, and this makes me happy to trust the team's decisions in what they pursue next. Naturally, not everything they've done is perfect; Shamans are a point of annoyance for me because very few people understand or care to explore the implications of "speaking with spirits" and there is little guidance on the metaphysical mechanisms that empower the class in a way that is meaningfully different from a Druid, which leads to everyone roleplaying the class completely differently, if they bother roleplaying the class at all, since a lot of people just take the class because it's the strongest summoner on the market. And the identity of the two different Invoker styles... I don't want to even begin to broach that mess. Even with my personal gripes, the roleplay on the server is better for the variety of options that players are given to work with and build their concepts off of.

I think there's something to be said about incongruous design elements clashing with one another when you have 5e-inspired design leaving the old 3e designs in the dust, or those different classes being difficult to pair together simply because of their unwieldy mechanical differences. I agree with the sentiment that a lot of these new base classes should probably have been implemented as paths or prestige classes to respect and even enhance the core identities of the classes that otherwise inspired them. Elementalist as a PRC heavily marketed towards Sorcerers? Spellsword as a PRC to build off the Wizard? Swashbuckler as a Rogue path? Blackguard and a Hexblade PRC synergizing well with Warlock to give new gish build options? Loremaster deleted?

One thing I will say about the new classes as a point of criticism: I wish they didn't demand pureclassing to be remotely effective. The way many of the old classes are designed (with the obvious exception of full casters), you could mix and match a variety of different classes in some pretty fun and unique ways, even if not necessarily powerful ways. This is mainly because a lot of them were front-loaded in design, where the defining elements of their identities were earned in early levels with the expectation that most campaigns would cap off at level 10, or rarely 20. Lots of the new classes don't feel like they really "come online" until you've taken epic levels with them, leaving little leeway for creative combinations. I feel Hexblade is the most egregious example of this, if only because it's the class aesthetic I most strongly wish could be incorporated into various character concepts in a viable way. The way these high-investment classes allow their players to feel "unique" when compared to one another is often through modular design, which... I mean it's fine... It's just not as fun as building some wacky 12/7/11 class combo to perfectly capture some niche character concept that can still function perfectly well out in the world. This is much less of an issue with prestige classes, which already expect weird level spreads and take that into consideration within their design. Shout out to Vigilante, which is probably the best custom PRC the server has cooked up.

To summarize my thoughts:

  • Eira has an opinion, which is utterly unforgivable
  • Monk is being made unrecognizable, which has never happened to another class before
  • Sweeping class changes are fine when they encourage better roleplay
  • More PRCs would be welcome as an alternative to base classes
  • Delete Loremaster

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by I will never sleep » Sun May 21, 2023 3:02 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 12:20 pm
  • Delete Loremaster

Agree. Loremaster dilutes the setting.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Ad Astra » Sun May 21, 2023 3:32 pm

I think it's worth saying the lore for warlock alone for many, many, many years was ripped directly fron 4e.

I made a post recently, about book accuracy due to some vital set in stone facts for worldly figures, but I also love creativity, using good ideas from multiple editions, and making progess as our own "thing" with a literal unique history that has officially branched off from the 3.5 timeline to have different events occor (or not occur) which would progress it towards 5e or 4e timelines.

Warlock has since proceeded from being a literal copy and paste of the 4e sections of the Forgotten Realms wiki...to something entirely unique that suits the Arelith setting far more. It is more 5e mechanically, which is amazing and good and well done, particularly from a game design perspective. In-fact, warlock is probably the best done class and will always be but also set the stage for other incredible changes to other classes.

So we don't really just use 3.5 lore, no. That's never been a thing, actually! It is the ruling of the server, but it is also the basis upon which we can build our foundations.

In spite of my own post about demonic bullshit, I encourage knowing your shit: Because you need to know how to make a departure fron it.

Last edited by Ad Astra on Sun May 21, 2023 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Preserver » Sun May 21, 2023 5:04 pm

Personal opinion: Classes are more or less detached from what a person roleplays and I personally find that fine.
Which means that the fact Monk is being unbound from what was its previous mechanical identity (though one of the Paths still allows for the physical martial artists, I believe) does not necessarily stop one from roleplaying that archetype.

The discourse, I think, could be aimed better. The point in my mind is not to keep the mechanical and narrative identity of the 3.0 Monk pure, but to keep the type of fantasy it satisfied accessible to Arelith players; the Class you use to represent it is not as relevant (though ludonarrative coherence is enjoyable).

As long as a player will be able to build "a spiritually inclined individual that engages with the world through their physical prowess as a path of personal growth", then it won't really matter whether that is represented by a Monk or not.

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I personally enjoy the path system very much, for a number of reasons: I don't really find "building" exciting or fun, I like neat progression systems that build on their previous levels and feature iteration, and I find it provides me with certain narrative/mechanical archetypes that I can then RP as I see fit (in adherence with what is reasonable) - the last point is, I'll admit, something that one can ALSO do with the standard 3.0 classes, but I personally find it easier with these modded and 5e inspired ones.

My thought process when I see things like the possible future "Psimonk" is immediately one of interest in seeing what sort of concept could be represented by that, and basically all classes with Paths have often helped me make the creative juices flow.

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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Mattamue » Sun May 21, 2023 5:39 pm

I prefer 4.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Hazard » Mon May 22, 2023 12:03 am

Mattamue wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 5:39 pm

I prefer 4.

I don't belive you.


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Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Mattamue » Mon May 22, 2023 2:28 am

Hazard wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 12:03 am
Mattamue wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 5:39 pm

I prefer 4.

I don't belive you.

Its my favorite number.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Concerns about Repeated Sweeping Class Changes and the Departure from 3.5 Mechanics

Post by Hazard » Mon May 22, 2023 9:12 am

6th ed will have heterochromatic cat-girls and we'll be right back where we started on old Arelith.


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