Undying Warlock Feedback

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Dreams
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Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by Dreams » Wed May 24, 2023 8:39 am

I've played a lot of different warlocks over time and wanted to give my feedback about Undying for better or worse. [https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Warlock#Undying_Pact]

Good:

  • Regen is fun and suits the thematic a great deal, particularly since there are a few regen items that can be used or UMD'd to add to this. It's never going to be more than a small bonus in PvE and a thematic thing, but it's still fun and cool.
  • Epic Pact giving a lifestealing blast is nice for the same reason as above, also lends to the thematic of a lifestealer, prolonging their own life at the cost of another creature? Awesome for the thematics and RP. Again not a huge bonus, but still fun and cool.
  • The undeath part doesn't have to be focused on to a huge degree, because the spell choices and other bonuses make this the kind of warlock that potentially exists without summons. The great thing about the spell list is that there are a bunch of necromancy options for curse-like spells, damage over time and so on. Downside of this is that many are DC based, and the ones that get bonuses from being a Greater/Epic Undying pact are the ones that are not on the spell list.

Bad:

  • Requires 18 CON / 24 CHA to be able to get sub-par Undead (Tier 6 only, no access to EMD) compared to any other caster that is summoning undead. It's a huge requirement and very small payoff. It also cannot be achieved until very late in the character's lifecycle, so you're not even getting those tier 6 undead summons until late epics.
  • The same ability requirements locks you out of ever considering a DEX-focused blaster, which means spear, e-chain, many of the e-mastery feats, or precision blasting. While there's an argument to be made that you need to make choices, these are extremely punishing choices.
  • There's a really, REALLY bad hint at potentially taking 10 PM levels + the Epic Pact = the PM Deathless Mastery. This is such a horrible trap. Your spells don't scale well, I'm not sure if this is a bug or intended. Your blast DOES scale, however due to missing out on any of the warlock epic bonus feats, it won't be upgraded to a point where it's useful. The only thing you achieve is crit immunity, and it comes at a horrendous cost.
  • The spell list was changed to lose animate dead, create undead, etc. This really limits the amount you can summon, where other warlocks are able to summon things continually (albeit with a cooldown).
  • Generally the Epic Pact isn't giving much of a bonus when you're not hitting a very specific build. Compare this to other warlocks, where their prerequisites are the same ability as what is unlocked by them. (e.g. 18 CHA required for epic fey pact, 24 CHA required for double-dominate).

What I think they need:

  • Some sort of summoning capacity built in to the pact. This could be similar to Abyssal/Infernal pact's free summon upgrade, maybe on hitting the greater pact you gain create undead ability or greater undead ability. It could be on the same cooldown if you want to be nice. Summoning warlocks do reasonably well for fiends, but that's not really possible as an undying warlock to the same degree.
  • Potentially access to tier 7 undead somehow. Maybe instead of Epic Pact giving the Tier 6 undead, that should just come with the pact, and having the 24CHA is a prerequisite for being able to take the epic spell Epic Mummy Dust? If you want to avoid that, then you can potentially have the summoning ability mentioned above just upgrade a bit through the tiers so that the undying warlock is at least on par with other casters specifically for summoning undead - since that really is a huge part of the theme here!
  • If you want to keep the Palemaster synergy, offer some method of gaining the warlock bonus feats as general feat choices (in this specific situation). It would mean people are still making choices between different things available to them, but you're not as completely useless.
  • Spell choices could be looked at again in order to get something that's actually going to be used longterm. Most of the nicer spells on the list get used less and less the higher you level. Create Greater Undead is a necessity, so you're losing decent options on the list due to being forced to summon through the spell list where other warlocks are able to just summon on the side without it being a specific spell taken. Spells like Wraith Stride seem much more thematic for this kind of character than say Eyebite or Finger of Agony (where you'd likely choose one but not both).
  • I think Warlock should be added to most of the necromancy specific items on Arelith, most of which are locked to wizard/sorc/etc instead.

Overall, Warlock is really fun, Undying has been another cool pact. Great RP, but a much worse experience for building and playing it generally.


AstralUniverse
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed May 24, 2023 10:33 am

I've played many warlocks, and 2 of them were epic undying warlocks so I'll add a bit of feedback as well.

I agree with the OP on the good and the bad for the most part, but I overall think the pact is fine in terms of pvp balance. It is in fact possible to be an undying blaster. 24 dex, 18 con 18 cha is entirely possible. That said, I wouldnt recommend undying as a choice for blaster build for other unrelated reasons such as the spell selection and damage types but it does have some merit for it's DR and self-heal blast and extra hp.

My inconvenience (which isnt necessarily an issue or bad design) is that there arent many synergies inside the kit.
For instance, it requires 18 con which is just 1 con away from EDR access, but then it gets just enough situational DR that further investing in EDR becomes questionable. Another example, I feel like there are no good DC spells to justify high cha, but at the same time, high cha means competent (I say competent but they are on the low end of competence) summons with no feat investment, which is hard to pass on because then you can pick a race that can have 20 dex 18 con 24 cha and invest in blast feats because they have the spare feats.

Which leads me to the point that undying is mostly good when min-maxed with said setup and outside of that it's by far and large weaker than epic star (or fey I guess) blaster, infernal summoner (that one is pretty hot right now no pun intended) or blaster/bg. I'm still trying my best to come up with some hideous blow undying warlock thing that gets summons, relevant blast damage and enough tankiness/sustain but I'll get back to you on that.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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RedGiant
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by RedGiant » Wed May 24, 2023 1:43 pm

I agree with much of what Astral says.

For me, the loss of create undead from the pact spell list is one of the main things.

Unlimited suboptimal undead was the selling point of the class and the epic perk. Without this they fall behind other summoners.

You can replicate the past with scribe scroll feat, which is what I did, but you are demonstrably worse for it.

So hard agree with the op that for the stated reasons it neither makes a great summoner nor good blaster. Right now it is an RP choice and argueable PvE convenience choice.

A parting idea: another way to tackle the problems here would be to decouple the eldritch mastery line of requirements from dex. Just make them general Warlock feats.

I always thought it odd there was a dex progression focusing on point targeting (chain, precision) and a cha progression focusing on area targeting (doom, agonizing) but that to fully specialize in blasting (i.e. taking eldritch mastery feats) your stating practically forces you down the point targeting path.

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Dreams
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by Dreams » Wed May 24, 2023 4:09 pm

I forgot to mention the other thing: Warlock Fiendish summons get bonuses now, such as getting the shared haste effect. Undead don't get that.

@Astral, that build means missing out on the 24CHA required for Tier 6 undead.


Power Word, Haste
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by Power Word, Haste » Wed May 24, 2023 7:57 pm

Not to mention PvP-wise, these summons don't really exist due to Word of Faith. Meanwhile the Epic Eldritch Summon is functionally immune to being killed by the same spell.


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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed May 24, 2023 8:54 pm

I am and have always been confused by the palemaster synergy. Is there a way you could make undying warlock / palemaster work, or is it just always a trap?


AstralUniverse
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu May 25, 2023 12:18 am

Dreams wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 4:09 pm

@Astral, that build means missing out on the 24CHA required for Tier 6 undead.

Not entirely sure which build you mean. The only build without 24 cha that I addressed is a blaster. Those never have 24 cha regardless of pact. The reason one would go undying blaster is to be a more tanky blaster at the cost of a lame spell selection, or that's how I see it anyway. I reiterate that I dont recommend undying blaster right now.

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 8:54 pm

I am and have always been confused by the palemaster synergy. Is there a way you could make undying warlock / palemaster work, or is it just always a trap?

It's not that good, but now that the blast scales same as 30 warlock, it's not entirely a trap anymore.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Dreams
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by Dreams » Thu May 25, 2023 4:20 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 8:54 pm

I am and have always been confused by the palemaster synergy. Is there a way you could make undying warlock / palemaster work, or is it just always a trap?

You can only make it work as 20 Warlock / 10 Palemaster, which means giving up ALL warlock bonus feats in epic. It's possible to do, but that doesn't mean it actually works. It's very likely someone might do this for the crit immunity only, without realising how little they get from the rest of it. The blast scales but you can't unlock anything for it.


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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu May 25, 2023 7:44 am

Dreams wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 4:20 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 8:54 pm

I am and have always been confused by the palemaster synergy. Is there a way you could make undying warlock / palemaster work, or is it just always a trap?

You can only make it work as 20 Warlock / 10 Palemaster, which means giving up ALL warlock bonus feats in epic. It's possible to do, but that doesn't mean it actually works. It's very likely someone might do this for the crit immunity only, without realising how little they get from the rest of it. The blast scales but you can't unlock anything for it.

You could be a crit immune melee warlock with 53 ac, EDR 3, respectable DI% to compliment it, doing 79~ damage on melee blasts. Again, I'm not saying it's particularly good but saying things like 'trap' or 'possible to do but doesnt mean it actually works' is not the term I would use. It's totally playable now, but yeah.. you're giving up a lot and it's a bit of a meme. Crit immunity is that good in this game and should cost accordingly.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Dreams
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by Dreams » Thu May 25, 2023 10:08 am

I'm not going to argue the point, I've just given my opinions here as feedback. The specific build you're talking about can't hit the tiers of undead that you genuinely need. So, you're taking palemaster and get some more summoning abilities but those abilities suck because your UCL isn't great and you don't have the 24 CHA to unlock the tier 6 undead. Past that, whoop de doo 53 AC - you'll be hit often and it won't matter that you have crit immunity, 10% DI (less than if you'd gone 30 warlock) or EDRIII, because it'll be so consistent that you're going to die anyway.


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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu May 25, 2023 1:29 pm

Dreams wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 10:08 am

I'm not going to argue the point, I've just given my opinions here as feedback. The specific build you're talking about can't hit the tiers of undead that you genuinely need. So, you're taking palemaster and get some more summoning abilities but those abilities suck because your UCL isn't great and you don't have the 24 CHA to unlock the tier 6 undead. Past that, whoop de doo 53 AC - you'll be hit often and it won't matter that you have crit immunity, 10% DI (less than if you'd gone 30 warlock) or EDRIII, because it'll be so consistent that you're going to die anyway.

You say you dont want to argue the point but then you proceed to argue the point, with factually incorrect statements and misinterpretation of what the build is even meant to be doing. it is not a summoner at all, and if you consistently die with these stats the issue is not with the class you're playing. Cheers.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Dreams
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Re: Undying Warlock Feedback

Post by Dreams » Thu May 25, 2023 3:22 pm

Chill out kid


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