Cost of Mundane vs Caster

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Xerah
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Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Xerah » Fri May 26, 2023 9:05 pm

From what we've been told elsewhere by members of the development is that the cost of a mundane is 3x that of a caster character (they have done the calculations).

Image

It seems like the simplest thing would be to make adamantine nodes more common which would help bridge this gap and bring the cost down. For the most part, adamantine equipment is to help mundane characters from low to mid epic until the next unique gear slot (which usually also takes adamantine). However, a low to mid epic will never go to a dungeon and find adamantine because it's only set to spawn in the high to very high epic dungeons.

Is there anything on the horizon that is being done to address this obvious flaw in the economy? This has been the case for a very long time and it's always been a mystery why this is the desired setup.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Lord Blacktooth » Sat May 27, 2023 10:32 am

You know.
This is a question allot of us have.
Even old players like myself, and a question i get asked allot both IC and OOC.

I can understand why it was rare in 2015 when a Mdamask weapon was top notch and indeed rare.

But now in 2023 with pirate treasure giving Adamantine ignots and Masterwork Runes.
The increase in drop rate for Masterwork Blade runes so that the price would go down and so on.
It feels strange Adamantine nodes are still this rare.

I know this isent the sugestion box. Buy couldent Adamantine be placed in a lower Ore tier aswel?
Like it was done with Mithral so it was more easely found when leveling.
Not sure how easy that is to actually do ofcourse


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Eters
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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Eters » Sat May 27, 2023 11:46 am

I don't believe adamantine is the source of the high cost for mundanes, but rather the constant need for expensive consumables. To be competitive in PvP as a mundane in high levels you need lore, the server is balanced towards mundanes having scrolls and needing magic in order to compete, since they can't produce magic, they have to buy it.

The constant need of burning coin for consumables is the staple of the current economy, a simple glance at shops around the island will reveal that about 70% of them are stocked with consumables for the mundanes to use. From potions and essences to wands and scrolls.

Adamantine being rare is not the issue, for you only need to shoulder the expense once, then the item you created serves you for the rest of your character's life, but the price of consumables (especially scrolls) is the one that makes the gap. Perhaps items like horn of goodness/evil with x/day which provide just the basic warding for ventures would serve well to reduce the bloat of mundane cost?


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by serono » Sat May 27, 2023 12:46 pm

Im not sure if adamantine is the problem. But lets say it is.
I believe making nodes appear in mid level dungeons will incentivize high level characters to go farm them and potentionally disturb leveling characters. Id think about doing it similar to the recent gem update, give a small chance to mine a tier higher ore without changing the node itself.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by -XXX- » Sat May 27, 2023 2:35 pm

Buffed melee > buffed spellcaster > unbuffed melee > unbuffed spellcaster

  • We're talking about the price for getting to the very top of the food chain here
  • A lot of players simply do not have the discipline for NOT walking everywhere in super sayian mode 24/7

Xerah
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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Xerah » Sat May 27, 2023 2:46 pm

I’d say it depends on how you play the game and how long your characters last.

I’m not sure the exact calculation that the devs did to come up with those numbers but I’m someone who doesn’t do much PVP, who doesn’t super ward after every rest, and who doesn’t have super long lasting characters. I’d wager that’s the majority of players.

I can take a caster to 30 without buying any equipment; the only thing I need is a senquncer and spell components or piety. That’s impossible for mundane. That’s the issue; long term character cost isn’t really an issue here

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 27, 2023 2:59 pm

Like two before me mentioned, the cost of the mundane compared to a caster is tied to consumables more than adamantine. The Adamantine stuff is a one-time purchase, and while i do worry a bit about the new gem system bringing the cost of some high end craftables way down I would actually argue that gearing a mundane that only wants to hit +12 on strength/con/wisdom (for the will saves!) is probably cheaper than gearing say a wizard once you factor in the cost of scrolls. Cleric is a different animal, since you can literally max out wisdom and +1 your physicals with gear and still hit +12 on all of them thanks to trans focus and extended vitalities and use mundane gear that you max out on ac yourself. Just don't get breached!

Where things get tricky for mundanes is when they start to want 4 (or more!) stats to be at +12, say for divine dips and swashy/loremasters. But that's related to 5%, not adamantine, and sincra is working on a system to replace that. These are also arguably the most powerful builds the server has to offer when geared to the max, so we really shouldn't be shooting to make them too easy.

The truth is, and it's been the truth since long before i started playing here and remains true through countless changes, summons are too good for pve. So, if I go through a dungeon as a wizard, maybe I use some healing kits because I wanted to go faster and chose a fire elemental instead of the hard to hit air elemental or the self-regenerating water elemental, and that cuts say 1000 coins into my profit. Or I could lol my way through the server with planar conduit if I really want to be bored. With a mundane I'm probably going to use closer to 4000 when you add up the consumables and healing I have to use on my no regenerating self, because I don't have the damage reduction of the elementals without spending way too much on shadow shield scrolls for a dungeon. And that's where the difference comes in.

This is fine if we are only talking about groups, since the wizard cuts the cost of the consumables for you with buffs by a lot, but you can't discount soloing when talking about costs since if i solo a dungeon I am still going to make about 2.5/3x more than I would in a group of four in the same dungeon. The group generates more spawns, which does add up if the collector is on point, but it doesn't change the amount you get from a chest, or how many yellow guys you find, or how many bosses heads are in your bag at the end of the dungeon. All of that adds up to a healthy chunk at the end, and for a mundane, its challenging and costly to go it alone. For a caster with summons, it's a walk in the park.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 27, 2023 3:03 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:46 pm

I can take a caster to 30 without buying any equipment; the only thing I need is a senquncer and spell components or piety. That’s impossible for mundane. That’s the issue; long term character cost isn’t really an issue here

So you get it, and had you written this 10 minutes sooner i wouldn't have wasted those minutes writing up an overly long explanation on why that is :)


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat May 27, 2023 3:47 pm

If we factor in the short amount of time it takes for a mundane to clear a dungeon vs a caster, doesn't that cost even itself out in the end, since mundanes technically make more gold per minute than casters do?

(Shops not included, of course. Casters tend to have the upper hand on those.)


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by msterswrdsmn » Sat May 27, 2023 3:51 pm

As a longtime player, adamantine doesn't even make up 10% of a mundanes expenses. Theoretically, it could take a total of 0% of your expenses if you can mine and forge the ingots yourself. Adamantine is also much more common than it used to be now too.

A vast majority of your expenses comes down to a few other factors:

:arrow: Consumables: Wands, potions, scrolls, healing kits. The staples of adventuring~ This has been beaten to death already so I won't add to this

:arrow: Repairs: Casters don't have to repair gear. With how the gigaschatten engine works, you really only damage your gear when directly engaged with an enemy; something casting-focused casters rarely do, if ever. This is a small expense, but an expense nonetheless that will add up over time.

:arrow: Gear: The cost of enchanting gear is more strenuous on mundanes than casters. Casters will, at some point, gain access to dwemorcrafting ranks, whereas mundanes typically won't without feat and skill investments. This alone makes gearing up easier for casters.

Because you're on the frontline as a mundane more often than not, you need to figure out how to balance your two (sometimes three) primary stats, saves, and skill bonuses on your custom gear. Casters need to do this too, but the access to DR/AC/miscellaneous buffs helps ease the pain if you can't hit everything right away (in my experience).

I'm might be alone in this opinion, but as someone who mostly solos, and having played both casters and mundanes (and weird hybrids), this isn't terribly unbalanced.

:arrow: Spells per day: Whenever i'm juggling effort vs reward in my head, I absolutely need to consider the number of spells per day I can cast as a consumable resource. Granted, its a renewable consumable, but a consumable nonetheless. Especially with wizard spell components (prior to them being restorable). If both my caster and my mundane can progress through the same area at a similar pace, the mundane is likely to get far, FAR more milage than my caster, simply as at a certain point, I simply won't have enough spells left to reasonably progress.

Yes, the cost-per-run for my mundanes is higher, but these aren't usually constant expenses, healing items aside. Careful wand/scroll use can spread out the life of buffing consumables for RL months, and as said before, a typical mundane can go farther than a caster simply because the mundane isn't reliant on spells. Hell, I can even exploit saving throws with dirty fighting and traps if simply hitting stuff doesn't work.

Going out and buying wands/scrolls also gives a natural way for me to interact with other players.

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 3:47 pm

If we factor in the short amount of time it takes for a mundane to clear a dungeon vs a caster, doesn't that cost even itself out in the end, since mundanes technically make more gold per minute than casters do?

(Shops not included, of course. Casters tend to have the upper hand on those.)

If you're looking at just the end results, maybe? The cost preparing to do said run and replenishing supplies is not the same, however.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 27, 2023 4:14 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 3:47 pm

If we factor in the short amount of time it takes for a mundane to clear a dungeon vs a caster, doesn't that cost even itself out in the end, since mundanes technically make more gold per minute than casters do?

(Shops not included, of course. Casters tend to have the upper hand on those.)

This really isn't true anymore, if it ever actually was. A buffed fire elemental kills as fast as most warriors when you factor in that it never has to take a round off to heal (since you the wizard or whatever are handling that). Now with arcane flux, you get a sweeper a few times a dungeon meaning 2 to 3 encounters are one spell and done. Now that's not a slight against arcane flux, I think its easily top 5 additions since i started playing here if not the best, it just makes things go faster since you aren't just watching the summon go anymore.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by -XXX- » Sat May 27, 2023 4:51 pm

1 A vancian spellcaster (like the wizard) can go 1-30 with little gear to no gear/consumable investment.
2 Overtuned summons that serve as both a crutch and life support for vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) cause 1
3 Summons have already been excised from PvP dynamic driving the vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) even farther down the food chain.
4 People still play vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) because of 1 despite of 3.
5 Vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) supply the economy with arcane consumables.
6 Mundanes need arcane consumables = they need 1 to be a thing so that 5 can happen.
7 Kill summons = kill wizard = kill mundane = warlock life for everybody.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Android Sufferer » Sat May 27, 2023 7:21 pm

There's 2 problems here IMO. The rate of gold income (far too low to sustain most non casters in appropriate dungeons) and rare things being too out of reach (An 'old gold' problem).

1: Gold income is very low, you'll be hard pressed to gain gold past writs if you're not a caster, it's even harder to do if you don't have IE, or have low ac.

It's also harder to sustain a pc at higher levels, than lower levels, in appropriate dungeons, as you need more and different consumables.

The reward (outside of runic items, ore and gems) is not much larger in higher level dungeons, and any rare items are sold to other players, they don't represent new gold into the economy so don't offset the outflow of consumables.

I believe most people will grind bookshelves for scrolls, rather than kill anything or do anything interesting, because it's by far the best gp - the real difference between casters and mundane is that casters aren't forced to spend an hour grinding scrolls, so they can run a dungeon.

2: For rarer items, they tend to be priced more (pricing out a lot of people) because of the existence of very large sums of gold in older faction banks and on older pc's, prior to economy changes. It was perhaps an oversight to close up the tap, but leave those huge reservoirs.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 27, 2023 7:24 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 4:51 pm

1 A vancian spellcaster (like the wizard) can go 1-30 with little gear to no gear/consumable investment.
2 Overtuned summons that serve as both a crutch and life support for vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) cause 1
3 Summons have already been excised from PvP dynamic driving the vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) even farther down the food chain.
4 People still play vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) because of 1 despite of 3.
5 Vancian spellcasters (like the wizard) supply the economy with arcane consumables.
6 Mundanes need arcane consumables = they need 1 to be a thing so that 5 can happen.
7 Kill summons = kill wizard = kill mundane = warlock life for everybody.

1 and 3 really have nothing to do with each other. The problems with wizard in pvp have nothing to do with the summons, but rather comes down to the fact they don't have the power to put pressure on the opponent like nearly every other class does, and the firepower they do have is often negated by pray. If a weaponsmaster crits you for 350 damage, you pray it away and they are a threat to do it all over again. If a wizard timestop evos you, you time your pray right and they are just done.

That being said, in group pvp a wizard is still fine. Its not the all around threat that can fend off 5 on 1, or even one on one really unless the opponent is just bad, but it can still be a valuable disruptor in a group.

The only thing I can think of to "Fix" Wizard, and it would take an insane amount of work to get there, is to increase the powerlevel of the damage spells greatly but tie them into ranged touch or something. Killing -pray would do wonders for the server as well, but I stopped saying that two + years ago because everyone told me I suck for thinking that :)


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat May 27, 2023 9:35 pm

I think we should separate balance from economics in this case. I'm aware that they're intertwined into one another but I dont think anyone would deny that mundane has a more powerful powercreep and perform better than casters when they have the incredibly costly counter play to every scenario quick slotted in their hotbars.

I think playing mundane is just tedious. It isnt fun. It isnt worth the power it brings, and is mostly something you play if you have a pre-made setup with friends and a caster is constantly in your pocket. This is why we have more casters than mundanes by several orders of magnitude and saying that mundane is stronger is just not a very good answer, even tho it is true.

We need to make mundane less tedious and costly to play, regardless of powercreep or no powercreep changes. That much, I feel, is a hard fact at this point.

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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sat May 27, 2023 11:36 pm

The problem is that PvE is skewed towards casters.

Casters have the tools to PvE high end places without needing to spend many, if any, consumables. This means that casters (which typically need less gold) are also the ones generating the most gold.

Adamantine isn't the sole culprit, but it is a big one, since each chunk is 20-25k. Runic materials also play a part here for the same reasons, but are more hit or miss, whereas adamantine once found can be farmed until it changes to another metal. Adamantine isn't big the biggest expense for mundanes, but it is a constant expense serverwise, there is always someone new needing adamantine, and so there's always someone that sells adamantine. This means a caster can just keep their shop stocked with a stack of these and it will slowly sell.

With my current mundane level 30, I can run the Temple of Malar, taking me roughly 30-45 minutes for roughly 30k gold once all is sold. You can reach certain adamantine spots much faster than that for usually double the reward just counting the adamantine, gems, and runic materials being a (possibly big) bonus on top of that.

As others have mentioned, the source of all evil here are the summons. They are overtuned, because many casters rely on them for everything, PvE and PvP included. Give casters other non-summon tools, nerf the summons to the point where they can't solo these places and things might equalize a bit.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Anomandaris » Sat May 27, 2023 11:53 pm

It feels like we’re confusing the “implications of our choices and trade-offs made during character creation” and “problems/balance issues.” It’s a trend that is quite common.

Do you want to optimize for PVE and solo dungeons for addy and runic spawns?

Do you want to play a shotgun melee crit machine that deletes PCs in 1-2 rounds?

Do you want to play a wombo combo evoker that struggles to solo dungeons but is a force of nature in group pvp?

Do you want to play a supportive healer/ buffer or have crazy mercantile skills to make your faction rich as heck?

Do you want to play a spot bot that plagues evil
PCs relying on disguise and stealth?

See my point yet? There’s a enough build variety for these play styles and more.

Stop expecting to do it all with one. Trade offs are a thing and should be a thing. It’s literally foundational to the setting mechanics. The expectation that this is not the case only will create disappointment.

If we had the data to quantify the gold spent per xp or dungeon ROI delta I’m sure it’d show a large disparity across builds. Great, that’s how it should be.

As people clamor for cookies to make their PC good at everything and have no weaknesses, it leads to power creep and actual imbalance issues, as well as a watering down of the whole experience.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 28, 2023 6:05 am

Anomandaris wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 11:53 pm

It feels like we’re confusing the “implications of our choices and trade-offs made during character creation” and “problems/balance issues.” It’s a trend that is quite common.

Do you want to optimize for PVE and solo dungeons for addy and runic spawns?

Do you want to play a shotgun melee crit machine that deletes PCs in 1-2 rounds?

Do you want to play a wombo combo evoker that struggles to solo dungeons but is a force of nature in group pvp?

Do you want to play a supportive healer/ buffer or have crazy mercantile skills to make your faction rich as heck?

Do you want to play a spot bot that plagues evil
PCs relying on disguise and stealth?

See my point yet? There’s a enough build variety for these play styles and more.

Stop expecting to do it all with one. Trade offs are a thing and should be a thing. It’s literally foundational to the setting mechanics. The expectation that this is not the case only will create disappointment.

If we had the data to quantify the gold spent per xp or dungeon ROI delta I’m sure it’d show a large disparity across builds. Great, that’s how it should be.

As people clamor for cookies to make their PC good at everything and have no weaknesses, it leads to power creep and actual imbalance issues, as well as a watering down of the whole experience.

You're not wrong but the end result is clearly that some classes are far les fun to play than others and we barely see them around. The world feels less homogeneous and organic with a verity of builds when the basic warrior architype is so obnoxious to get going compared to other things. Maybe PVP is just not as important as it used to be and people dont take it seriously enough to build around it and suffer the cost of being mundane. Maybe its entirely something else... the end result is the same.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Power Word, Haste » Sun May 28, 2023 6:16 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 3:47 pm

If we factor in the short amount of time it takes for a mundane to clear a dungeon vs a caster, doesn't that cost even itself out in the end, since mundanes technically make more gold per minute than casters do?

(Shops not included, of course. Casters tend to have the upper hand on those.)

How did you come to this conclusion?

Mundanes take far longer to clear dungeons than casters, and it is far, far more expensive as well. When I level casters with epic summons (Planar Conduit/Epic Mummy Dust) I am clearing runic dungeons at low epics and naked with no crafted or enchanted gear. My cost input is zero, and everything I get is pure profit. The summons clear enemy packs in 1-2 rounds, have extreme DR/DI and high regen on top of the arcane sequencer so every class can give their summon long duration improved invisibility and AC buffs.

Mundanes on the other hand, have to pay for costly consumables every few minutes and do not have access to a long duration haste except for blinding speed on dex builds, and dex builds don't do very much damage on the whole. Improved concealment*, shield potions, zoo buffs, healing kits/healing potions, temporary essences, mage armor, protection from alignment. This does not count preventative buffs like negative energy protection or freedom of movement if you know you need those in certain dungeons, or spell breach for acid sheathe/flame shield enemies (these cost 705 per scroll). Being in the line of fire instead of mind immune summons also makes these melees susceptible to save spells, which even if they have to roll a natural 1, will have plenty of chances to happen over the course of a dungeon.

*If your melee doesn't have access to wands, each improved invisibility scroll is 705gp from a scroll vendor, or dusts of disappearance are several hundred each from player shops. These only last SEVEN MINUTES, and is a very important buff for preventing incoming damage.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun May 28, 2023 3:31 pm

Power Word, Haste wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:16 am

*If your melee doesn't have access to wands, each improved invisibility scroll is 705gp from a scroll vendor, or dusts of disappearance are several hundred each from player shops. These only last SEVEN MINUTES, and is a very important buff for preventing incoming damage.

This really has nothing to do with this debate, but I say it every chance I get because I think it's good advice. If I am going full mundane (no wands) my crafting point spread is always something along the lines of 10 art, 6-8 smithing, and the rest split between herbalism and alchemy. It takes some work at first getting to know what's what, but once you have it sorted you just gather what you will need along the way and you essentially make your own resources, including dust of disappearance (and appearance, you can wreck an entire party's day by consuming a displacement potion/scroll and erasing their II) and all the potions out of herbalism.

I think most people say to themselves "I need smithing because I am going to need a full plate and a high-end weapon," but those are generally one-time purchases and can easily be saved for when you are making your own healing/buffs.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Lacki » Sun May 28, 2023 5:13 pm

Part of the problem is that the module is so back-breakingly difficult without wards - especially for a mundane - that you literally can't survive without them. Mob AC and AB alike are ballooned to levels that assume that you're warding rather than assuming that you're not (see subterranean lizards or rock beetles for a low-level example, see the Underdark Anguilians for a high level example). Without wards, you are screwed.

Even at low levels, you NEED wards in order to clear even the most basic content, otherwise you'll just die or waste all your money on healers' kits. I learned this the hard way when I was first starting out and didn't even know what a ward was.

Not buying wards is not an option for mundanes because of the aforementioned difficulty.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by chris a gogo » Sun May 28, 2023 6:02 pm

Really it's about what you spend you can spend gold and buy everything you need or you can spend time and make almost everything.
Most will just spend gold I know I do. But then we get threads like this one saying how it costs to much and how mundane need more freebies.
OR.
You spend time and make your own consumables as Babylon mentioned and your costs are reduced massively.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by godhand- » Mon May 29, 2023 2:17 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 4:14 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 3:47 pm

snip

This really isn't true anymore, if it ever actually was. A buffed fire elemental kills as fast as most warriors when you factor in that it never has to take a round off to heal (since you the wizard or whatever are handling that).

I struggle to understand the logic of this.
Ancient fire elemental at level 21 CL with ESF Conj will have 3 APR with 33/28/23AB ~ 35/hit
Add arcane sequencer buffs - woo survivability - But the Fire biteback triggers LESS often because of II

A strength/mundane warrior will have above 4APR @ 40ishAB at 21, hitting for similiar if not more /hit (see WMs/Div dips).
simply, you have one more attack/round, and you have a 35% higher chance of hitting the same mobs.

I just cant understand how the fire-elemental in this situation is clearing faster than the warrior in this situation.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by RedGiant » Mon May 29, 2023 3:07 am

I have recently taken several mundanes (to include a no-magic kensai) to 30 and my 2 cents is that this perennial thread is outdated. Many mundanes have self-healing as part of the kit. If you're not gearing to maximize your important stat (or three) so as not to be completely buff dependent, "you're probably doing it wrong". And there are rather simple way to make the few things you might need beyond that (c.f. herbalism).

tl;dr: The team has really given you all the tools you need in this regard, between class perks, gear, and skills. Choosing to chew through resources instead is, well...a choice you could make.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon May 29, 2023 4:00 am

godhand- wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 2:17 am
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 4:14 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 3:47 pm

snip

This really isn't true anymore, if it ever actually was. A buffed fire elemental kills as fast as most warriors when you factor in that it never has to take a round off to heal (since you the wizard or whatever are handling that).

I struggle to understand the logic of this.
Ancient fire elemental at level 21 CL with ESF Conj will have 3 APR with 33/28/23AB ~ 35/hit
Add arcane sequencer buffs - woo survivability - But the Fire biteback triggers LESS often because of II

A strength/mundane warrior will have above 4APR @ 40ishAB at 21, hitting for similiar if not more /hit (see WMs/Div dips).
simply, you have one more attack/round, and you have a 35% higher chance of hitting the same mobs.

I just cant understand how the fire-elemental in this situation is clearing faster than the warrior in this situation.

One, its always hasted, and while the warrior can be too its expensive and requires an action for it to reapply since at best you are getting 10 rounds.

Two, every time you heal the elemental with kits mid fight, the warrior would have had to take a round or two off to do the same for himself, while the elemental just keeps on hitting while you the wizard use the kits.

Three, the ab is not as much of a factor when it comes to the AI in a great many dungeons, so the chance to hit is not as wide of a difference as you laid out.

And Four, and this is new with arcane flux though I used to spam the free damage spells anyways, that's extra damage per round. It also makes the AI angry and want to come get you, often trigging an AOO for the summon. If you know how to circle the fight with the wizard should one actually break away from the summon, you probably will get at least one more aoo along the way.

All of this stuff added up pre arcane flux, and now with it it's just gotten more prominent. And I didn't even touch on my favorite wizard spell for pve at least through the early epics, slow, or how epic trans focus gives all your summons +7 physical stats.


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