Cost of Mundane vs Caster

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AskRyze
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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by AskRyze » Mon May 29, 2023 12:45 pm

Anomandaris wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 11:53 pm

It feels like we’re confusing the “implications of our choices and trade-offs made during character creation” and “problems/balance issues.” It’s a trend that is quite common.

Do you want to optimize for PVE and solo dungeons for addy and runic spawns?

Do you want to play a shotgun melee crit machine that deletes PCs in 1-2 rounds?

Do you want to play a wombo combo evoker that struggles to solo dungeons but is a force of nature in group pvp?

Do you want to play a supportive healer/ buffer or have crazy mercantile skills to make your faction rich as heck?

Do you want to play a spot bot that plagues evil
PCs relying on disguise and stealth?

See my point yet? There’s a enough build variety for these play styles and more.

Stop expecting to do it all with one. Trade offs are a thing and should be a thing. It’s literally foundational to the setting mechanics. The expectation that this is not the case only will create disappointment.

If we had the data to quantify the gold spent per xp or dungeon ROI delta I’m sure it’d show a large disparity across builds. Great, that’s how it should be.

As people clamor for cookies to make their PC good at everything and have no weaknesses, it leads to power creep and actual imbalance issues, as well as a watering down of the whole experience.

While you have a valid point, when was the last time you saw a rogue that wasn't either A: on Skal, or B: already stapled to a leveling buddy (probably a summoner cleric or a spellsword) via OOC connections to get them through mid teens and epics?

You're absolutely right, there are tradeoffs in what you get to play. But remember that most of us play alone, and most of us aren't necessarily good at the game. Summoner can be played using voice to text whilst wearing a straightjacket. That is also, quite apparrently so if you have run epic content at all recently, the standard of power and efficiency around which high end dungeons have been balanced, possibly as a direct result of developers feeling slighted by how easily summons plow through content. Anything less efficient feels like nails on a chalkboard.

Flower Power wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2023 10:53 pm

You say this, but being MILDLY MEAN to people is treated like a war crime on Arelith.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Xerah » Mon May 29, 2023 4:10 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 3:07 am

I have recently taken several mundanes (to include a no-magic kensai) to 30 and my 2 cents is that this perennial thread is outdated. Many mundanes have self-healing as part of the kit. If you're not gearing to maximize your important stat (or three) so as not to be completely buff dependent, "you're probably doing it wrong". And there are rather simple way to make the few things you might need beyond that (c.f. herbalism).

tl;dr: The team has really given you all the tools you need in this regard, between class perks, gear, and skills. Choosing to chew through resources instead is, well...a choice you could make.

I'm not sure you're playing the same server as the rest of us. A once every 10 minutes healing ability does not solve all the problems. The Devs have literally told us that it is 3x more expensive to play a mundane.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 29, 2023 7:07 pm

After having played a paladin, a blackguard, a champion, and now a fighter, I definitely agree on the self-healing. Paladins, as a perfect martial example, can infinitely spam Cure Minor Wounds at the low cost of spending a few extra seconds. If you time it right, you can Cure Minor Wounds between looting corpses.

But even as I play through my ex-Kensai pure Fighter, the Second Wind ability really makes a huge difference for me.

Self-healing being on a 10 minute cooldown isn't a bad thing, either. Those who wish to be frugal in-game may want to consider walking in a dungeon. Not only do you get the benefit of not looking like an insane person with no respect for potential traps, ambushes, and dangers, but you also get to use your cooldown abilities more often, which in turn decreases the need for you to use Healer's kits and/or healing potions as much.

Self-healing abilities and their relatively short cooldowns are such a quality of life addition to the game.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Svrtr » Mon May 29, 2023 7:15 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:07 pm

After having played a paladin, a blackguard, a champion, and now a fighter, I definitely agree on the self-healing. Paladins, as a perfect martial example, can infinitely spam Cure Minor Wounds at the low cost of spending a few extra seconds. If you time it right, you can Cure Minor Wounds between looting corpses.

But even as I play through my ex-Kensai pure Fighter, the Second Wind ability really makes a huge difference for me.

Self-healing being on a 10 minute cooldown isn't a bad thing, either. Those who wish to be frugal in-game may want to consider walking in a dungeon. Not only do you get the benefit of not looking like an insane person with no respect for potential traps, ambushes, and dangers, but you also get to use your cooldown abilities more often, which in turn decreases the need for you to use Healer's kits and/or healing potions as much.

Self-healing abilities and their relatively short cooldowns are such a quality of life addition to the game.

Its not a matter of being irreverent of traps, its a matter of being unable to see them, or else wise unable to disable them.

For reference too, the heal of fighter is fighter level * CON. If you're a deep fighter, that is at most 180 HP per 10 minutes, 18 hp per minute, or 1.8 hp per round. Compared to regenerate which is about 7-8 HP a round and is constant and consistent vs a burst heal matter.

Likewise, the planar conduit summons and majority of mummy dust summons also have a higher value of regen, while in combination of there being two of them, them having someone to buff them with stuff like mass haste for both the extra APR on top of the actual movespeed itself, the flanking AB bonus, while having often very close damage values to a proper mundane on just the one planar conduit summon before factoring both.

The only way a caster is clearing a dungeon less comfortably and more slowly than a well built martial build is if they're caster build not properly built for content, and in which case comparing a similarly competent caster build and martial build in solo is the way to go.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 29, 2023 7:45 pm

Svrtr wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:15 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:07 pm

After having played a paladin, a blackguard, a champion, and now a fighter, I definitely agree on the self-healing. Paladins, as a perfect martial example, can infinitely spam Cure Minor Wounds at the low cost of spending a few extra seconds. If you time it right, you can Cure Minor Wounds between looting corpses.

But even as I play through my ex-Kensai pure Fighter, the Second Wind ability really makes a huge difference for me.

Self-healing being on a 10 minute cooldown isn't a bad thing, either. Those who wish to be frugal in-game may want to consider walking in a dungeon. Not only do you get the benefit of not looking like an insane person with no respect for potential traps, ambushes, and dangers, but you also get to use your cooldown abilities more often, which in turn decreases the need for you to use Healer's kits and/or healing potions as much.

Self-healing abilities and their relatively short cooldowns are such a quality of life addition to the game.

Its not a matter of being irreverent of traps, its a matter of being unable to see them, or else wise unable to disable them.

For reference too, the heal of fighter is fighter level * CON. If you're a deep fighter, that is at most 180 HP per 10 minutes, 18 hp per minute, or 1.8 hp per round. Compared to regenerate which is about 7-8 HP a round and is constant and consistent vs a burst heal matter.

Likewise, the planar conduit summons and majority of mummy dust summons also have a higher value of regen, while in combination of there being two of them, them having someone to buff them with stuff like mass haste for both the extra APR on top of the actual movespeed itself, the flanking AB bonus, while having often very close damage values to a proper mundane on just the one planar conduit summon before factoring both.

The only way a caster is clearing a dungeon less comfortably and more slowly than a well built martial build is if they're caster build not properly built for content, and in which case comparing a similarly competent caster build and martial build in solo is the way to go.

If you're going to compare Second Wind with summons, at least use level equivalents. Second Wind is a level 2 ability, while Planar Conduit and Mummy Dust can be obtained at 21 at the earliest.

Instead of conveniently ignoring the Fighter's Epic Second Wind, let's take a look at it:

From the wiki wrote:

Epic Second Wind (Fighter 21, Str 21)
Gives different effects based on remaining HP upon activation:

100% - 75%: No AB/DMG, instant healing 25% (of the original amount), 50 regen for 5 rounds
75% - 50%: No AB/DMG, instant healing 50%, 25 regen for 5 rounds
50% - 25%: +1 AB/DMG, instant healing 75%, 10 regen for 5 rounds
25% - 0%: +2 AB/DMG, instant healing 100%, 5 regen for 5 rounds

I'm almost level 21 with my pure fighter, so I couldn't yet tell you how it feels to use. But based on the numbers alone, I'm looking forward to obtaining it.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Svrtr » Mon May 29, 2023 8:31 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:45 pm
Svrtr wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:15 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:07 pm

After having played a paladin, a blackguard, a champion, and now a fighter, I definitely agree on the self-healing. Paladins, as a perfect martial example, can infinitely spam Cure Minor Wounds at the low cost of spending a few extra seconds. If you time it right, you can Cure Minor Wounds between looting corpses.

But even as I play through my ex-Kensai pure Fighter, the Second Wind ability really makes a huge difference for me.

Self-healing being on a 10 minute cooldown isn't a bad thing, either. Those who wish to be frugal in-game may want to consider walking in a dungeon. Not only do you get the benefit of not looking like an insane person with no respect for potential traps, ambushes, and dangers, but you also get to use your cooldown abilities more often, which in turn decreases the need for you to use Healer's kits and/or healing potions as much.

Self-healing abilities and their relatively short cooldowns are such a quality of life addition to the game.

Its not a matter of being irreverent of traps, its a matter of being unable to see them, or else wise unable to disable them.

For reference too, the heal of fighter is fighter level * CON. If you're a deep fighter, that is at most 180 HP per 10 minutes, 18 hp per minute, or 1.8 hp per round. Compared to regenerate which is about 7-8 HP a round and is constant and consistent vs a burst heal matter.

Likewise, the planar conduit summons and majority of mummy dust summons also have a higher value of regen, while in combination of there being two of them, them having someone to buff them with stuff like mass haste for both the extra APR on top of the actual movespeed itself, the flanking AB bonus, while having often very close damage values to a proper mundane on just the one planar conduit summon before factoring both.

The only way a caster is clearing a dungeon less comfortably and more slowly than a well built martial build is if they're caster build not properly built for content, and in which case comparing a similarly competent caster build and martial build in solo is the way to go.

If you're going to compare Second Wind with summons, at least use level equivalents. Second Wind is a level 2 ability, while Planar Conduit and Mummy Dust can be obtained at 21 at the earliest.

Instead of conveniently ignoring the Fighter's Epic Second Wind, let's take a look at it:

From the wiki wrote:

Epic Second Wind (Fighter 21, Str 21)
Gives different effects based on remaining HP upon activation:

100% - 75%: No AB/DMG, instant healing 25% (of the original amount), 50 regen for 5 rounds
75% - 50%: No AB/DMG, instant healing 50%, 25 regen for 5 rounds
50% - 25%: +1 AB/DMG, instant healing 75%, 10 regen for 5 rounds
25% - 0%: +2 AB/DMG, instant healing 100%, 5 regen for 5 rounds

I'm almost level 21 with my pure fighter, so I couldn't yet tell you how it feels to use. But based on the numbers alone, I'm looking forward to obtaining it.

Second wind is a 2nd level ability which scales with fighter levels. After the fighter/WM nerf, the number of level 20+ fighter is actually LOWER< but for the math I assumed a 20th level fighter with 9 CON mod aka 16 base CON fully geared, where as planar conduit is a feat you can get at level 21

If you are only 6 levels in fighter, you only get 6*CON mod HP. If that happens to be 9 CON mod, thats only 54 HP on a 10 minute CD. The value goes from 180 health to 160 if you have 14 base CON because you go for other things such as LM

Further more the epic second wind change is largely agreed to be an overall nerf, as if you use it at full health you get some regen but no AB nor damage and then waste all the extra ACTUAL heal that you get even less of, and so its considered a trap feat by most


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Anomandaris » Mon May 29, 2023 10:20 pm

I think it’d be awesome if the team could articulate their design vision related to things like this (or maybe they have and I am unaware). The issue seems to be divergent expectations among the player base regarding how things “should” work.

To me comparing regen heal values of a cleric ability and a fighter ability is not productive or meaningful. Much akin to comparing AOE damage potential between an Evoker and a weapon master, or single target damage output between a commoner and an arcane archer.

Reaching equivalency across classes in terms of similar capabilities should not the goal, and in fact would make things so vanilla and divergent from the DND feel so many of us love, that I and many others would no doubt move on from server.

IMO balance does NOT mean your character should be as good as another character at the same things (unless you’re equally invested/built to do that same thing). It means that your character has the ability/potential to make a SIMILAR sized “impact” in the one or more arenas of gameplay you’re suited towards (PVE, PVP, Economic Rp etc), all else being equal.

So does the fact that mundane is more expensive than caster per dungeon, per lvl, per day of game play matter? Yes and no.. basic considerations of QOL are important, but please don’t seek equivalency.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by RedGiant » Mon May 29, 2023 11:27 pm

Xerah wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 4:10 pm

I'm not sure you're playing the same server as the rest of us. A once every 10 minutes healing ability does not solve all the problems. The Devs have literally told us that it is 3x more expensive to play a mundane.

MissEvelyn did a fine job of supporting my point. But, you're right in one sense: if you play like most people I see...who think it is a great idea to face tank a dungeon with their mundane without reference to any of the things I mentioned...then it will absolutely be 3x (or more) expensive.

I recently played a Paladin (magic healing), a Barbarian (rage/regen in epics), a Monk/WM/SD (ability heal), and a forbidden Knight meme (ability heal) to 30 or high epics. There are some standard convenience kits I make for the vast majority of their PvE existence. This consists of x2 Lantanese Rings and, where classes or UMD allow, and a Greenseer's Masque (which also neatly eliminates the need for barkskin potions). 2-3 Regen plus class perks make a world of difference. I also like a displacer beast armor with its always-on 30% concealment and its built-in-get-out-of -jail-free button. As quickly as I can, usually by their early teens, I max at least their two most important stats. Like the rest of the server, I almost always take improved expertise on my mundanes. For rogues I especially like parry. Without going much further into the deep magic of RedGiant qol builds, I can say that it takes me many sessions to burn through a stack of 100 heal kits and probably my only concession to the grind is 26gp shield potions and 50gp mage armors for my low-ac builds.

Oh, and I also usually don't face tank dungeons...not that you do...but most people I see act like they are streaming a speed run on twitch.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Xerah » Mon May 29, 2023 11:55 pm

Frankly, I don't even know how to respond to that. If you're using leather armour (likely without dex to support it), 2 50k+ rings which really only add +2 regen, not casting barkskin unless you have UMD to support it with an expensive helm (that is a loss of AC), then using a 10 minute cooldown for healing. And to top it off, you're not tanking with your melee mundane character? I don't know. I really struggle to make sense of this. There are so many better ways to do this.

Getting to 30 is really not much of an accomplishment anymore.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by RedGiant » Tue May 30, 2023 12:35 am

Xerah wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 11:55 pm

Frankly, I don't even know how to respond to that.

I could go on, but I realize I would just be derailing your thread to talk about my qol passions. I do think you can run economical mundanes. Some people think that is niche, but so are naked wizards.

BUT, to your original point. heck yes make adamantine more accessible! This is a step I usually skip on my weirdly economical mundanes, self-crafting the best, cheapest versions of things (c.f low to no adamantine +4 weapons).

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by PowerWord Rage » Tue May 30, 2023 2:05 am

Mundane can never clear a dungeon faster than a competent casterr with their Summon, fully buffed to the teeth.
That's a fact and it's not able to be argued.

Mundane will always spend a lot more to clear a dungeon, no matter to do it faster or slower, than a competent caster with their Summon, fully buffed to the teeth.
That's too a fact and it's not able to be argued.

Several facts need to be taken to note.
No matter if you're a FGT/WM/BARB, your DPS will still be lower than 2 antfrogs despite your high AB and DMG because Arelith works in a way whereby monster prioritize AB over AC. Yes, there're some mob that have both high AC and AB but those are generally rare, even in epic dungeons. This belongs to Maths which i'm sure that competent players can definitely work this out.
[ Ant Frog does average DPS of 50 to 60 each with critical scaling to more than 100. when bully buffed, their AC can reach more than 60 with haste, accompanied by at least 45-48AB (due to flank because you have 2 of them). I can go on with Mummy dust summon (a few variant) or even warlock summons but i don't it's necessary. ]

For Mundane-
1) High DPS build are often crippled by their lack of AC.
2) Average DPS build are often accompanied by moderate AC with improved expertise ( can usually fall around 56 - 60 AC )
3) Low DPS build are often accompanied by High AC.

I've realised that some monsters in old epic dungeon seems to have their crit modifier changed to 3x instead of the 2x prior to few years ago. Furthermore, most of the few epic content have monsters that have sneak attack on top of their already high damage. That largely increase their DPS on those build that lack AC ( below 58 )
Every single encounter can usually chunk out between 200 - 300 HP off any PC mundane solo, if not more.

And due to the way AI works in Arelith, more summons effectively reduce single monster's APR because their AI likes to keep changing target hence, wasting it's original APR. Effectively, summons ( more than 1 ) not only does more damage but smart players, can use this to their advantage to also reduce the overall dps of any monster groups, especially facing epic boss level monster.

I can go on and on, and on.
Having played both Martial and Summoner class solo and effectively clearing perhaps 90% of epic contents, I feel that it's laughable that comparison between Mundane vs Caster on PVE still require debate. But that's just me.

Edit: Red Giant made a fine point about the tanking part. If i infer it correctly, he meant to fight more tactically. Either make use of narrow corridor/door or pull them so that you might trigger AOO and at the sametime, trying your best to engage opponents 1 by 1. It does help if you fight them tactically and every bits, make a difference indeed.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Wrips » Tue May 30, 2023 3:28 am

Casters are infinitely easier and convenient to level and acquire resources than mundanes. There's absolutely no comparison on how comfy it is to clear Maurs, for example, with mass hasted ant frog instead of slugging through the content with an unassisted weaponmaster. Casters spend less and they do it much faster, aggravated by the fact that epic bosses often have decent melee stats to engage a mundane but melt in the face of AoE spell tactics (like wall of fire/ice, or ranged touch warlock blasts, etc). Only a few short epic dungeons are viable to do with a mundane without you dying of boredom before clearing it.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Helsing » Tue May 30, 2023 3:33 am

Anomandaris wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 10:20 pm

IMO balance does NOT mean your character should be as good as another character at the same things (unless you’re equally invested/built to do that same thing). It means that your character has the ability/potential to make a SIMILAR sized “impact” in the one or more arenas of gameplay you’re suited towards (PVE, PVP, Economic Rp etc), all else being equal.

So does the fact that mundane is more expensive than caster per dungeon, per lvl, per day of game play matter? Yes and no.. basic considerations of QOL are important, but please don’t seek equivalency.

Then how about your caster picked one feat and can summon two weaponmaster? Yeah don't seek equivalency.

Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 am

This is somewhat tied to dungeon design as well, since it all depends on monster challenge and how tough they are.

If we take maurs for example, then yes a summoner has much better QoL there since the giants have a lot of hp, but the antfrogs can still chew through the content there.

On the other hand, mundanes can do what summons cannot - whirlwind without stopping.

So once we regard the EZ runic dungeons where regular spawns have less than 200hp and can just pop after a single crit (Aurilites, Viper Monks or Styx), the mundane can just hold W while whirlwinding each spawn, which yields much faster clear time than anything a spellcaster can do, since the summons focus down mobs one at a time and even casting spells roots the caster down.
An AB 52 weapon master can also kill those AC 60+ boss dragons much faster by themselves than the AB 44 antfrogs do (including anything that the spellcaster can throw at the boss).

Admittedly, invokers having access to Conduit and MDust skews this a little - but they should be probably confined to Elemental Meteor which is also very solid, but has a slower clear rate compared to the other two.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Wethrinea » Tue May 30, 2023 9:19 am

Being a caster with summon is easier and cheaper than being a mundane. No argument there.

But the idea that mundanes can't earn enough gold to pay for upkeep and gear is simply false. Investing in appraise, search and DD/OL certainly helps, but it is not really necessary. Some points in art crafting to turn the raw gems you auto-loot by the truckload into hard coin is one option, saving up scrolls and heads until you find a high appraise/leadership friend another. Heck, if you are on Skal, picking up those animal skins can turn you a tidy profit in the early levels too.

I have a level 15 barbarian on Skal that relies on potions, scrolls and ungodly amounts of heal-kits to do his job. No ranks in art craft or search, a few in OL/DD and some delving gear (cloak, gloves, dweomer rings) He still manages to be well equipped and have 50k in the bank after all those non-epic accessory items are paid for. I think animal skins alone have netted him 20k so far.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by magistrasa » Tue May 30, 2023 10:42 am

Wethrinea wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:19 am

Being a caster with summon is easier and cheaper than being a mundane. No argument there.

But the idea that mundanes can't earn enough gold to pay for upkeep and gear is simply false.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Helsing » Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 am

This is somewhat tied to dungeon design as well, since it all depends on monster challenge and how tough they are.

If we take maurs for example, then yes a summoner has much better QoL there since the giants have a lot of hp, but the antfrogs can still chew through the content there.

On the other hand, mundanes can do what summons cannot - whirlwind without stopping.

So once we regard the EZ runic dungeons where regular spawns have less than 200hp and can just pop after a single crit (Aurilites, Viper Monks or Styx), the mundane can just hold W while whirlwinding each spawn, which yields much faster clear time than anything a spellcaster can do, since the summons focus down mobs one at a time and even casting spells roots the caster down.
An AB 52 weapon master can also kill those AC 60+ boss dragons much faster by themselves than the AB 44 antfrogs do (including anything that the spellcaster can throw at the boss).

Admittedly, invokers having access to Conduit and MDust skews this a little - but they should be probably confined to Elemental Meteor which is also very solid, but has a slower clear rate compared to the other two.

Dude you made two wrong assumptions.

1) martial = has whirling attack by default. Which is totally not the case. There are tons of pure martial and half caster martial who can’t take the whirling attack tax. So you saying about pressing W and whirling through mobs is not true.

2) summoners are not just sitting there afk when their summons do the job. I have partied with elementalists, warlocks. And they contributes TONs of damage beside the summons’ dps. And i don’t see you mention anything here.

It’s just interesting that ppls still arguing that martial clears dungeons faster than casters these days…

Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by chris a gogo » Tue May 30, 2023 4:58 pm

Elementalist is broken.
Warlocks equal playing the game on easy mode.
Half casters are not mundane.

Mundane classes don't have access to magic or wands by default, bulk of those will take weapon master levels or go pure for class features that are worth it.

Caster do make more gold than mundane it's not even debatable, but it's not down to gear costs, so adding easy to get adamantine wouldn't fix anything, the costs are on buffs.


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by RedGiant » Wed May 31, 2023 12:36 am

I was going to let this go, but I had my B12s today.

I thank PW_Rage for the kind concession, they understood perfectly what I meant about tanking in general vs. face tanking a dungeon (rushing all spawns with no thought to strategy while spamming consumables).

I realize some might not consider half-casters full mundanes, but neither are they true summoners for the context of this discussion.

For all the "casters make more than mundanes...this is inarguable" arguments I read , I would answer that everyone makes the same if you clear a dungeon, the OP is about how much you spend to do it. Here I have shown how it may be done economically, for fractionally what I see most people doing it for everyday. If you chose not to do it this way, you are generally prioritizing speed over gold.

To the general objection casters can clear faster because they have pocket warriors, I would argue, few things are faster and had more gold than my last barbarian. But more to the point, many of my mundanes themselves have pocket warriors...and yours could too.

Everyone seems think only about some sort of standard FTR/WM/R build.

My Monk/WM/SD had a str-based epic shadow lord that chewed scenery.

My meme Knight, who was a beast in his own right built around doing the most DPS in a round to a single target possible, can also hire and do all the great knight perks to henchmen.

We could talk about Rangers and their companions and you might cry foul because its a half-caster (see above). Or, we could talk about the suddenly popular cav/deep Blackguards, and you might cry foul because technically a BG can cast bulls str, but that's a mundane build...with one ferocious pet.

We haven't even got to the tribal barbarian yet, which I'm tempted to do to 30 on my next project just to prove a point. I ran a Minotaur and ran over the entire test area on the PGCC without a consumable used. I can't think this is a bad option.

"Don't be afraid to dream a little bigger." The Devs have set the table for running interesting mundanes, which aren't quite as hamstrung as I think people believe they are, if you really look at everything Arelith puts on the table.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Hazard » Wed May 31, 2023 12:51 am

RedGiant wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 12:36 am

I was going to let this go, but I had my B12s today.

I thank PW_Rage for the kind concession, they understood perfectly what I meant about tanking in general vs. face tanking a dungeon (rushing all spawns with no thought to strategy while spamming consumables).

I realize some might not consider half-casters full mundanes, but neither are they true summoners for the context of this discussion.

For all the "casters make more than mundanes...this is inarguable" arguments I read , I would answer that everyone makes the same if you clear a dungeon, the OP is about how much you spend to do it. Here I have shown how it may be done economically, for fractionally what I see most people doing it for everyday. If you chose not to do it this way, you are generally prioritizing speed over gold.

To the general objection casters can clear faster because they have pocket warriors, I would argue, few things are faster and had more gold than my last barbarian. But more to the point, many of my mundanes themselves have pocket warriors...and yours could too.

Everyone seems think only about some sort of standard FTR/WM/R build.

My Monk/WM/SD had a str-based epic shadow lord that chewed scenery.

My meme Knight, who was a beast in his own right built around doing the most DPS in a round to a single target possible, can also hire and do all the great knight perks to henchmen.

We could talk about Rangers and their companions and you might cry foul because its a half-caster (see above). Or, we could talk about the suddenly popular cav/deep Blackguards, and you might cry foul because technically a BG can cast bulls str, but that's a mundane build...with one ferocious pet.

We haven't even got to the tribal barbarian yet, which I'm tempted to do to 30 on my next project just to prove a point. I ran a Minotaur and ran over the entire test area on the PGCC without a consumable used. I can't think this is a bad option.

"Don't be afraid to dream a little bigger." The Devs have set the table for running interesting mundanes, which aren't quite as hamstrung as I think people believe they are, if you really look at everything Arelith puts on the table.

+1


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by AllPizzasArePersonal » Wed May 31, 2023 1:09 am

RedGiant wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 12:36 am

the OP is about how much you spend to do it.

So, actually, it's not. If we go back to Xerah's original post:

For the most part, adamantine equipment is to help mundane characters from low to mid epic until the next unique gear slot (which usually also takes adamantine).

The OP is about the relative cost of gear while leveling and specifically about how adamantine gear functions as slightly below BIS for most mundanes but, due to its raw resource requirement, is prohibitively expensive for mundanes to actually acquire at that stage in their character's lifespan. Xerah further elaborated a few posts down:

Xerah wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:46 pm

I can take a caster to 30 without buying any equipment; the only thing I need is a senquncer and spell components or piety. That’s impossible for mundane. That’s the issue; long term character cost isn’t really an issue here

I think it's fine to talk about the cost of consumables, but it's certainly not what the OP is about.

Edit: Apologies if I've put words in Xerah's mouth. It just seemed like this thread had deviated wildly from the OP :-)

Last edited by AllPizzasArePersonal on Wed May 31, 2023 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed May 31, 2023 1:37 am

I think we all agree that wizards are definitely more cost effective when leveling, even those debating that warrior is in a fine place to level. I actually agree with those people too, having leveled quite a few actual mundanes (not the half casters!), although I did face tank. I just made my own consumables too, and I'm good at micromanaging. The games not a game after all if there is 0 fear of death.

But that leaves us with the real question. Is the difference in cost of a mundane vs a caster due to the mundane being too weak? Or the caster too strong?

I think the answer is obvious and written all over this thread, but it's not going to be a popular one. GL!


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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Hazard » Wed May 31, 2023 3:11 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 1:37 am

I think we all agree that wizards are definitely more cost effective when leveling, even those debating that warrior is in a fine place to level. I actually agree with those people too, having leveled quite a few actual mundanes (not the half casters!), although I did face tank. I just made my own consumables too, and I'm good at micromanaging. The games not a game after all if there is 0 fear of death.

But that leaves us with the real question. Is the difference in cost of a mundane vs a caster due to the mundane being too weak? Or the caster too strong?

I think the answer is obvious and written all over this thread, but it's not going to be a popular one. GL!

I think it's in the fact that the module is insanely bloated statwise when it comes to PvE.
People need to fully ward their powerbuilds to go to the dungeons they 'want' to go to. Myself and others have given advice on better, cheaper more profitables dungeons to go to, on the forums in the past, but people are incentivised to go to the epic high-tier dungeons and so understandably they want to, they try to, and they find things with saves, AB, AC and HP all astronomically high.
Coupled with constant dispels so that you need to re-ward and unavoidable damage sources like missile spam, damage shields, infini-traps, it can really eat into your profit as a mundane and leave a player feeling furious and like their character sucks.

I consider it artificial difficulty. It's not actually any harder, it's just more expensive and tedious. It's fine for something to have crazy high <thing>, but when everything has crazy high everything, it just gets annoying.

Yet, if we bring those numbers down there's powerbuilds that can just steamroll through everything.

I think a solution or at least a way to mitigate this frustration would be to also include and rebalance "lower level" dungeons, or max level dungeons that aren't "epic". Places people can go to for a reasonable solo adventure, where things will generate a lot of raw profit (scrolls, gems, jewelry, gold, etc) and not necessarily have the end goal being runic chests. Instead, you go there, you make decent money, and you can go back to town and buy the things you were going to pray to RNGesus to at an epic dungeon if you went.

You can already do this (and I do), but it doesn't feel like it's intentional because the amount of dungeons that let you do this is few (and shrinking over the years).

There has always, and likely will always be envy towards casters from mundanes in Dungeons & Dragons.
The solution isn't to take things away from casters, but rather to give them to mundanes.

Not necessarily magical abilities, but mundane abilities that are based off of characters physical stats they've likely invested in (con, dex, str). New editions lean into this.

Toning the PvE mobs down and giving mundanes some cookies like they've already been given is great.
Forcing casters to suffer because mundanes are suffering isn't balance it's just revenge.

If something is bad, making another thing bad too is the kind of problem solving children do. I'm sorry I hit you by accident, you can hit me back if you want! Short-term someone feels sort of better, but ultimately now two people have sore arms. Adding costs to casters because mundanes have them, will just result in both playstyles hating how much they have to spend to get through PvE, and everyone will grow even more frustrated and toxic.

Second Wind is pretty cool. So is sprint. Intimidate. These are all mundane abilities you can use to save some gold and get an advantage. More things along those lines, or just improving them a bit (for free, without investment) would be nice, coupled with a toning down of some content and being more generous with profit in weaker dungeons.

Last edited by Hazard on Wed May 31, 2023 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by godhand- » Wed May 31, 2023 4:13 am

i recently levelled a mundane to 20, with a MoD. The relevance of the MoD is i know i have died twice.
One to PvP, and one to a triplespawn whereby my buffs ran out midfight and i noob'd it up losing imp expertise sinking potions.

so far my outgoings costwise have been LESS Than 40,000 gold.

I have double stat gear (str con - all looted) (A caster could achieve this same freebie gear)
and full mithril plate/helm/shield., I made myself a masterly steel weapon, i made my own mithril gear. (of which deposits are in abundance)

I bought a +4 essence for 15,000
I've bought 3x30 stacks of potions (str/con/bark) (estimated 10,000)
i've bought about 100 heal kits total. (estimated 5k)
Jewellery box & scroll case (10k total)

"A caster can get to 30 naked" - The only difference in costing to 20 for a caster would therefore be the +4 essence and potions to a total value of 25k.....

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Re: Cost of Mundane vs Caster

Post by Xerah » Wed May 31, 2023 4:57 am

godhand- wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:13 am

i recently levelled a mundane to 20, with a MoD. The relevance of the MoD is i know i have died twice.
One to PvP, and one to a triplespawn whereby my buffs ran out midfight and i noob'd it up losing imp expertise sinking potions.

so far my outgoings costwise have been LESS Than 40,000 gold.

I have double stat gear (str con - all looted) (A caster could achieve this same freebie gear)
and full mithril plate/helm/shield., I made myself a masterly steel weapon, i made my own mithril gear. (of which deposits are in abundance)

I bought a +4 essence for 15,000
I've bought 3x30 stacks of potions (str/con/bark) (estimated 10,000)
i've bought about 100 heal kits total. (estimated 5k)
Jewellery box & scroll case (10k total)

"A caster can get to 30 naked" - The only difference in costing to 20 for a caster would therefore be the +4 essence and potions to a total value of 25k.....

Leveling to 20 is both incredibly easy and not at all what the issue is. I knew this discussion was going to completely ignore and derail the actual 3x issue that’s been stated from the devs team with these antidotal tales of ease.

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