Scrying - Full Name?

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Morgy
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Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Morgy » Tue May 30, 2023 11:50 am

Hello all!

Not a suggestion as such, but perhaps it will be based after discussion.

Currently, you can scry a person using only part of there name. Not even a whole part though, it can be only a few letters of the first name.

For example, if I wanted to find Robbie Black, I can scry 'Rob' or 'Robbie' (common names, arguably), and locate the person easily even without the second name.

Should scrying be coded so if you don't type the name in full (for example, you only know their first name), it fails? That seems more sensible to me than the currently system.


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Cthuletta
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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Cthuletta » Tue May 30, 2023 2:46 pm

I could agree with that, only if because when I go to scry 'Rob', I might end up watching some dude named Robert White instead of Robbie Black like intended. Granted the way around this is to use the full name anyway, but it's a bit funny that a diviner or seer would accidently scry a person they'd never met or heard of.

Only problem I might see with this is when folks use special characters in their name, since it's pretty rare people will type out the à, è, ì, ò, ù (or others) when writing a name down or talking about that person. There are also some folks who have a space at the end of their name, or in replacement of a proper surname for other mechanical reasons. That's not really the players' fault, of course, but it would make it more difficult to properly type out the entire name if there's a mechanical difference there that can't really be 'spoken of' or seen.

Hope that makes sense. I'm still on the first cup of joe. :D

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Watchful Glare » Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 pm

This will be amusing when you meet a character named Yhsduhsghaaaryahdndvdynalieh'vuuul'yahazaharr that everyone calls Yappy.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue May 30, 2023 10:12 pm

Requiring a full name exactly as written would be a very real problem as it is far too easy to sneak in unusual whitespace characters into character names to make it impossible to type EXACTLY.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue May 30, 2023 10:59 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 pm

This will be amusing when you meet a character named Yhsduhsghaaaryahdndvdynalieh'vuuul'yahazaharr that everyone calls Yappy.

The new meta will be giant names nobody can spell.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Deep Fried Thinking Emoji » Wed May 31, 2023 6:57 am

Wouldn't be too bad if scriers had to write the whole name. They can always just copy paste weird names from the log.txt.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Paint » Wed May 31, 2023 7:26 am

Considering you can just look someone up on the in-game playerlist, send them -scry as a tell and scry them(Do not do this if you do not know their name ICly), I don't really see any reason to not make scriers spell out the full name.

Scrying is already a really cheesy tactic to defeat disguises, since if you have someone's full name, you can scry them even if they're in disguise. This is pretty alright, because it means someone can't just enter a disguise to avoid being scried, therefore defeating the mechanic entirely with zero investment, but it also means that scrying can be a pretty powerful and no-effort tool to gather information about a person even while they're attempting to obscure their identity if they're not careful, entirely defeating the point of disguise in some cases.

So you know, ensuring the scrier has their full name before scrying them seems kinda... important...


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Wed May 31, 2023 1:20 pm

Paint wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:26 am

Considering you can just look someone up on the in-game playerlist, send them -scry as a tell and scry them(Do not do this if you do not know their name ICly), I don't really see any reason to not make scriers spell out the full name.

Scrying is already a really cheesy tactic to defeat disguises, since if you have someone's full name, you can scry them even if they're in disguise. This is pretty alright, because it means someone can't just enter a disguise to avoid being scried, therefore defeating the mechanic entirely with zero investment, but it also means that scrying can be a pretty powerful and no-effort tool to gather information about a person even while they're attempting to obscure their identity if they're not careful, entirely defeating the point of disguise in some cases.

So you know, ensuring the scrier has their full name before scrying them seems kinda... important...

I would say, very important.

I used to get scry stalked and had my play schedule hunted down and portal stalked by a whole group. It was interesting how the instant my concealment would fade (and I would let it intentionally,) I would get scried, and by full name in disguise too.

I was distinctly followed from server to server despite concealment and disguises, having my full name spammed by diviners for some hilariously specific drama purposes that involved some clear ooc plotting and communication between the players involved.

All in all, I think that it shouldn't be a tool to break disguises is my experience there. I doubt people actually even heard "Sythaeryn" over "Syth" if not just for how aggressive and careless they were, as well as blatant before I had to go dissaportal to vaguely slow down my stalker team. What I do know is that it was done pretty maliciously and it can he hard to prove that sort of thing, but I was very much logging on to be scried until the announcement about scrying people 30 seconds after they get on the game for the first time that day.

Tbh this killed my drive for my character.

Diviners alone ruin disguisers, and I was doing that with the dumb air genasi tag showing up everywhere (which I have an unreplied to bug thread about.)


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed May 31, 2023 2:37 pm

Paint wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:26 am

Considering you can just look someone up on the in-game playerlist, send them -scry as a tell and scry them(Do not do this if you do not know their name ICly), I don't really see any reason to not make scriers spell out the full name.

Scrying is already a really cheesy tactic to defeat disguises, since if you have someone's full name, you can scry them even if they're in disguise. This is pretty alright, because it means someone can't just enter a disguise to avoid being scried, therefore defeating the mechanic entirely with zero investment, but it also means that scrying can be a pretty powerful and no-effort tool to gather information about a person even while they're attempting to obscure their identity if they're not careful, entirely defeating the point of disguise in some cases.

So you know, ensuring the scrier has their full name before scrying them seems kinda... important...

Say you want to scry Yhsduhsghaaaryahdndvdynalieh'vuuul'yahazaharr (who has some invisible whitespace characters hidden in there to make it literally impossible to type). If they disguise to "John Doe", they are permanently protected as long as they never tell anyone they are disguised as "John Doe".

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Ork » Wed May 31, 2023 8:00 pm

Shouldn't we just kill scry at this point?


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Hazard » Wed May 31, 2023 8:14 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 8:00 pm

Shouldn't we just kill scry at this point?

Yep.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed May 31, 2023 10:03 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 8:00 pm

Shouldn't we just kill scry at this point?

Only because nice things can't be had by the masses 😒


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by WanderingPoet » Wed May 31, 2023 11:23 pm

Morgy wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 11:50 am

Hello all!

Not a suggestion as such, but perhaps it will be based after discussion.

Currently, you can scry a person using only part of there name. Not even a whole part though, it can be only a few letters of the first name.

For example, if I wanted to find Robbie Black, I can scry 'Rob' or 'Robbie' (common names, arguably), and locate the person easily even without the second name.

Should scrying be coded so if you don't type the name in full (for example, you only know their first name), it fails? That seems more sensible to me than the currently system.

What of disguised names? You can scry Robbie Black while he is disguised as "Bobbie Blue", if that's the name you have. Do you think that full name should be required for disguises too?

Lorewise this is a bit weird that you can scry Robbie as Bobbie, if he's pretending to be Bobbie, but only if you know he is Bobbie Blue. Perhaps disguises shouldn't be scryable with this suggested change?

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed May 31, 2023 11:58 pm

Imagine how Arelith would play out if Scry required / prompted OOC consent, first. Could we have that? Instead of the silly name rule, which isn't even how the spell works in PnP, and is tedious a rule to enforce on top of that.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Morgy » Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:02 pm

Overall, I would prefer scry gone altogether I think. With how common it is now loremaster is a thing, it's really lamely easy to out someone in a disguise or prove they are doing this/that. A lot of the time it feels quite lazy.

I would suggest limiting it maybe by requiring a fixture to scry, that also isn't something that can be easily hauled around. I've had people surround me and blatantly scry-break my disguise, despite not actually breaking mechanically with spot. This kind of thing, and the sneaking off around a corner to scry someone you suspect in disguise, would be less prevalent if you couldn't do it without going to a certain location (which takes time).

Scry as it is currently, I believe is often more harmful to productive plot-building than it is beneficial.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by magistrasa » Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:01 pm

Morgy wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:02 pm

Overall, I would prefer scry gone altogether I think. With how common it is now loremaster is a thing,

Image

I've seen WM builds squeeze in LM just so they can scry and know the "enemy" languages. Please, I'm begging you Irongron, give us Loremageddon 2.0 and nuke Loremasters off the map, I promise I'll never ask for anything from you guys ever again

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Inordinate » Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:28 pm

Feedback thread bingo!

Stop changing the subject, scry is fine, it's easily counterable etc etc.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:20 pm

Inordinate wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:28 pm

Feedback thread bingo!

Mentioning the Feedback thread bingo

🤭


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:53 pm

This would've been all fine and good if people weren't adding excess spaces or weird characters to their names (this might be because of a remake, or straight up with the intent to make the use of managerial systems more difficult against their characters).


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Hazard » Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:17 pm

This thread was productive. I'm glad that we, as a community, have come to the correct decision to delete scry and loremaster. I look forward to these changes being implemented soon!

Anyway.

Just quoting the other thread here because they're both sorta talking about similar things imo.

Hazard wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:46 pm

It's not that hard to play a character without ever telling anyone your name, or owning anything that would allow people to learn your name (property and stuff).

I've done this multiple times, but unfortunately people DO still find out your name. It only takes 1 mystery person to just metagame it, and tell someone and then it will spread server-wide and there's no undoing that. I've seen it happen to everyone else too, it's not just me. Trying to avoid metagaming on Arelith is as impossible as trying to avoid people shaming an elf for not wearing trousers.

Some low-quality things will just always happen.

I think a change in rules around exiling is needed. Needing the 'correct name' (whatever that means) to exile someone doesn't make sense. What if that player doesn't even have a disguise, and they just have never told anyone their name? Either by choice or they're mute and illiterate or whatever. If I play a character that is unaware of their own name, am I just immune to exiles, pariahs, scrying, etc? There's too much tied to "real name".

Idea. Dialogue option with the settlement NPC that allows them to ask for a piece of something from the subject. You just RP plucking a hair from the guy that refuses to tell you their name, give it to the dude .. The dude takes it off-screen to some state-funded diviner or something, they don't find out his real name or anything but whoever "that person" is, is now exiled.

Same with scry, just let people scry someone if there has been some RP around taking something of theirs/from them. It's equally as enforcable as learning their name, and makes more sense.

Bit of a rule tweak and a little text added for flavor.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Kalthariam » Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:26 am

As someone whom uses scrying properly, without remotely abusing it, and usually just to check up on people..

I've never ruined someone's disguise with a scrying spell, I've never hunted people down, I've never enabled people to do scrying ganking nonsense.

Overall, I'm not really happy that one of my favorite tools for RP purposes, and distance communication with people I physically am not allowed to meet in person would be taken away, because the PvP Meta slaves decided to abuse it.

This is an RP server, but more and more it feels like everyone's leaning into the PvP nonsense as the only form of conflict resolution and abusing tools to get what they want.

This is absolutely infuriating to even consider the fact I've done nothing wrong personally, but people want to take RP tools away from me, because other people are abusing the rules, and no one wants to just simply address the issue that PvP is way too bloody out of hand on this server and not enough is being done to stop people from making the server a miserable place for others just trying to RP.

The issue isn't with the fact the scrying epic ability exists. The issue is the "I MUST WIN" PvP mentality that has infected and taken over this server, and even if you remove Scrying, the people with this mindset will not stop, they will just find other ways to Meta game and make your life hell, and continue to be disruptive to the server until more and more things are taken away to curb their behavior instead of just directly addressing this mindset that should not exist on a RP server.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by I will never sleep » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:26 am

Ork wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 8:00 pm

Shouldn't we just kill scry at this point?

Hazard wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:17 pm

This thread was productive. I'm glad that we, as a community, have come to the correct decision to delete scry and loremaster. I look forward to these changes being implemented soon!

good

-

Inordinate wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:28 pm

Feedback thread bingo!

only so much running around the pole you can do before it gets tiring

The fact using scry to "bust" disguises even came up in this thread and a few times on the officialcord by someone basically asking how to optimize their bad faith rp is indicative of how poisonous it can be as a mechanic. Just delete it. Spare us.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Inordinate » Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:51 am

Yes, because removing a mechanic for someone's dogwater use of the mechanic that is both terrible RP and likely an outright rulebreak that should be reported to the DMs and viciously curtailed by the team is the best path forward.

Totally reasonable.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Deep Fried Thinking Emoji » Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:03 am

Removing scrying because it is a bad mechanic is unironically reasonable, yeah.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Cthuletta » Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:54 pm

"Remove scry! It's too broken and used for malicious metagamey purposes!!"
I can see the reasoning behind this. It is VERY often used and manipulated in such a way that story arcs that aren't even off the ground get smooshed before any meaningful or fun roleplay can occur from them in particular, in my experience. I've personally had an entire story that I'd planned out completely get curtailed and thrown to the wind because of one scry on the first day, and I'm far from the only person who's gotten disappointed in their plans going awry that way. Sure, that's not really meta-gaming, but it does put a damper on what could otherwise be some pretty cool story arcs that'll now never happen because of a well-timed peep into another person's life. Then you have those who sit around and constantly scry on 'targets', or the dreaded 'I saw that playername has joined as a player, time to scry them immediately' scenario.
The main thing there would be 'What kind of nifty fun thing can we give ESF: Divination folks in it's place?' ... maybe something more with the Deck of Stars? I dunno, I'm biased given I love the aura/attunement mystery and invested lots of time into figuring it out. Could be a fun topic in another thread of ideas for Seers/Diviners to have instead of scry.
No, it's not very fun or fair that a cool tool gets ruined for the many because of how easily abused it is, but unfortunately, that's just kinda how it goes sometimes.

"Remove Lore Master!!"
This is WAY off topic from Morgy's original suggestion, but please don't. LM offers next to nothing in PvE/PvP mechanics, and is almost solely used for utility builds. Scry is one factor, maybe languages another, but people who take Lore Master are usually lessening their overall build, sacrificing spells, attacks, and pretty much everything else, in exchange for some roleplay 'goodies' to utilize such as skills they otherwise wouldn't have, or a fun ESF Ability that's otherwise not doable for their build. As a personal example, Druids do not get 'Listen' or 'Spot' as a skill, but Lore Master does. I get far more utility out of 5 levels of Lore Master, than I would dipping 3 into Rogue for a single skill, but losing out on those 3 levels that would be far more beneficial in Druid.
Plus I enjoy my Tutor feat, and many others also very specifically wanna use my Tutor feat. Lol

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