ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

[Coolguy McMagic]

I see no mention of Warpriests. Is it still intended for them to be able to pick it?

[Svrtr]

I see no mention of Warpriests. Is it still intended for them to be able to pick it?

Yes warpriest will still be able to take it. The post was just meant to focus on the mechanics of the spell itself, if the decision to let warpriest take it is reverted and they are no longer able, I will make it very public that they no longer can take it

[Paint]

6 AC being knocked down to 4 is kind of a really big deal here, as it really restricts the builds that I was interested in taking this on. It becomes a question of whether or not Elemental Avatar is worth it to take at this point. It is an epic feat, after all. That being said, literally none of the builds I wanted to take EA on are what I'd consider competitive for PVP or PVE right now, so I guess we'll see what happens.

I'll try to punch numbers later, but right now, I think if the point of EA was to increase build diversity, it's not accomplishing that; EA is a great boon to builds that already have high AC from Monk or Vig since you can snag that DR and some extra damage and regen, but because the AC is reduced for builds that don't dip monk or vig, it's a less attractive option now.

I'm a little baffled by this balance decision, honestly. 2 AC might not seem like a lot, but it's enough of a difference that it makes me raise an eyebrow at least.

I imagine the meta builds with EA are going to include monk or vig, and that anything else is going to be subpar in comparison. The AC gap between builds with monk or vig, and builds without monk or vig is just too big, and EA doesn't bridge that gap enough anymore. That's a little disappointing. EA had a real chance to add some diversity to the build pool, and I feel like it's fumbled right at the last moment.

[Kalthariam]

Question:

Would the DR from these forms stack with the DR that Healer Path clerics get from their divine power? Or would it simply take whatevers better?

[Yvesza]

I'm not sure I like the AC drop from 6 to 4 very much. The big worry about two handing weapons is the issue of runaway strength bonuses (15-16 mod) allowing for absurd damage, the treade off for two handing is now...

-4 AC for +1 AB / +6 damage

I think it's a poor choice in terms of increasing build diversity. I'd much rather have seen it dropped from 6 to 5 as this still allows for shamans to gain AC while using a shield and the trade off for two handing is a little closer to something worth considering.

My worry for two handing was that it'd be possible for people to use divine shield / might to double down on damage while also boosting their AC significantly, something that's not really possible with the restrictions. We're already in a world where a paladin or blackguard can get to mid to high 50's AC while two handing and benefitting from strength and charisma to damage (1.5x).

Damage changes on water and earth to make them elemental instead of physical was definately needed. Earth and water both were overshadowing fire.

Piety loss isn't my favourite as it's going to pressure people into the War and Destruction domains if they plan to make use of this feat extensively. This also pushes people even further into the mentality of sprinting through dungeons because every second that passes mechanically costs them resources in terms of buff durations and now, piety.

A really nice alternative to summons though. I won't miss the days of antfrog.

[Svrtr]

Question:

Would the DR from these forms stack with the DR that Healer Path clerics get from their divine power? Or would it simply take whatevers better?

Both earth and healer bonuses are damage resistance rather than one being resistance and one being reduction, so they will not stack unfortunately.

One thing I intend to pursue in the future is seeing if there are design spaces to make water's regen aura interact with healer cleric or domain, but any such interactions will be a future thing as my current goal is bug testing and live release to begin balancing

[Coolguy McMagic]

Question:

Would the DR from these forms stack with the DR that Healer Path clerics get from their divine power? Or would it simply take whatevers better?

Both earth and healer bonuses are damage resistance rather than one being resistance and one being reduction, so they will not stack unfortunately.

One thing I intend to pursue in the future is seeing if there are design spaces to make water's regen aura interact with healer cleric or domain, but any such interactions will be a future thing as my current goal is bug testing and live release to begin balancing

The wiki states healer DR is reduction, not resistance. Is that wrong?

[Svrtr]

Question:

Would the DR from these forms stack with the DR that Healer Path clerics get from their divine power? Or would it simply take whatevers better?

Both earth and healer bonuses are damage resistance rather than one being resistance and one being reduction, so they will not stack unfortunately.

One thing I intend to pursue in the future is seeing if there are design spaces to make water's regen aura interact with healer cleric or domain, but any such interactions will be a future thing as my current goal is bug testing and live release to begin balancing

The wiki states healer DR is reduction, not resistance. Is that wrong?

Then my mistake, I recall it being resistance but if it is reduction it will stack

LIKEWISE

I have made some basic warpriest builds I will share here and post on the discord once this feat goes live. Enjoy:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =927634149

[Kythana]

2handed damage is really not out of control as you might think it is. The AC nerf on air stream is quite unwarranted imo, given that you:

• Are losing a shield slot, which means you have reduced DI and enchanting capability.
• Likely are taking exotic proficiency to use a falchion.
• Cannot use divine might.
• Have nerfed hide + ms.

For comparison, here is what the average damage per round looks like between two EA builds look like. 52 AB each, with a 34 strength modifier(aka hard str of 22). One with a scimitar and fire stance, 2handed with falchion and air.

[Acina]

I like Earth's Numbers. I love Water's Numbers.. I hate Air dropping from 6 to 4.

Not sure if even adding concealment would make me considering taking it. The fact you cannot summon and you draw aggro from anything in proximity, I have to really evaluate now if I want to play with a build I was going to utilize elemental avatar on. I think 5 ac would be a middle ground. That -2 ac on air really hurts. I would really like an alternative to the divine shield/wisdom ac life for 2h, and this was my best chance

[Starbridge]

Total boss. Thank you!
shakes violently in chair
I CAN'T WAIT! THIS IS GOING TO BE AWESOME!

[Starbridge]

The VFX are being overhauled. If anyone has any additional ideas / input regarding how intensive / subtle the effects should be, please post below. Thank you.

MOVING FORWARD PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE USE IMGUR OR SIMILAR SUCH SITES TO HOST YOUR IMAGES IF YOU COME ACROSS ANY ERRORS THANK YOUUUU!

Honestly, I think the large, main ring was enough.

Red/orange - Fire
Gray/brown - Earth
Purple/yellow - Air
Cyan/white - Water
Green - Ooze
Simple and to the point.

[Svrtr]

After further internal discussion upon the matter as well as after feedback, consideration is being given to increase the AC scaling to 1/3/5, that being 1 on earth, 3 on fire and water, 5 on air.

More notes will come out in the coming days with info.

[MartialHag]

I take it pure Druids with Mono Shapes will be kept exempt from it ? Or do Mono Shapes get the luxury of using it ?

[Svrtr]

I take it pure Druids with Mono Shapes will be kept exempt from it ? Or do Mono Shapes get the luxury of using it ?

This has been and still is in discussion. Given the tankiness of the monolith shapes, there is a valid concern about giving them undispellable regeneration and shield ac, a damage aura, and damage resistance that stacks with EDR, but it would be thematically fitting

[Svrtr]

After feedback was received, the following changes have been made.

1) Air shield AC scaling increased to 1/3/5 (1 on earth, 3 on water and fire, 5 on air)

2) The cooldown on elemental avatar after turning it off is now 12 seconds (a bug made it 4 seconds instead of 4 rounds, both fixes this bug and reduces it to something that feels better for turning it off and on between enemy groups in PvE)

3) The seeker dex bonus threshold from divine power has been reduced to 14. Previously, if you had less than 18 dex on seeker, it increased it to 18. This could then also receive buffs from cat's grace or other sources. This was causing builds like 23 seeker 4 rogue 3 vigilante to hvae 8-10 dex getting to 18 with little to no requirement for gearing it, allowing for far higher than wanted AC on strength seekers that were reaching upwards of 59 AC pre IE with little to no gearing

4) Likely the most unpopular, lightly armored scaling on seeker has been removed.

This was a multiperson discussion and I know will be unpopular so let me explain.

The concern was largely just strength seeker, in part with vigilante dip. The combination of point 3 and 4 meant they could go for 10-12 dex, get divine power to buff themself to 18, cat's grace up to 23-24 or so, and get +3 AC from lightly armored.

Dex seekers generally will be wearing cloth armor with magic vestments as magic vestments does not scale with lightly armored, only the base value does, and the only armor of note that exceeds the +4 to +5 bonus was ranger studded leather, whose AC value caps at +4 dex modifier, else the draconic leathers which are a flat +5 and so benefit. Similarly, dex seekers already had 18 or more dex, and so got the +2 either way. Given the general propensity for cloth armor whose dex bonus is uncapped, they did not benefit nearly as much if at all as strength seekers

Thus, point 3 will not affect dex seekers and will only affect strength seekers seeking to easily get to the 18 dex for the AC and then cat's grace on top to get easy lightly armored bonuses to AC to reach values of that 57-59 AC with vigilante. Given all these factors, a strength seeker with 23 seeker 4 rogue 3 vigilante still gets 1 lightly armored bonus from 4 rogue levels, but now will use divine power and cat's grace and reach 16-18 with potential for a dex ioun if they so wish, doubly so with elemental avatar giving a minimum 1 shield AC and thus removing any necessity for a shield skleen or ioun

This outlier build will thus lose about 2-3 AC, going to about 56 with all factors up, and likewise air stream will be buffed up to 1/3/5.

As always, I will follow closely any feedback I am able and hear any thoughts

Edit: The last thing I forgot to mention, this update also fixes a bug of divine power. Normally divine power will read your stat, and if its under 18 it increases it to 18. However if you buffed your stat, say you had 8 STR on a cleric buffed to 12 with bulls strength, divine power read that 12 instead of the 8, and increased your STR by 6 to 18 instead of by 10 to 18, with bulls strength then on top then buffing by +4 to 22, reduced to 20 due to the +12 stat bonus cap.

I have fixed this

[Quidix]

Has there been any thought to blocking wis AC / ki barrier builds from getting all the non-AC benefits from Elemental Avatar? Picking the Earth version is a sizeable boon, with only 'losing' 1 of stackable AC?

[Svrtr]

Has there been any thought to blocking wis AC / ki barrier builds from getting all the non-AC benefits from Elemental Avatar? Picking the Earth version is a sizeable boon, with only 'losing' 1 of stackable AC?

It has been discussed, but the general consensus from myself included is "Exceptions are never fun and feel heavy handed, and this wouldn't be an exception but instead would punish vigi/monk dip builds who want to use elemental avatar"

It is something I want to avoid doing, and given that now strength vigi seekers can no longer reach the AC values they had before, combined with needing to gear a bit of dex and full wisdom and monk being in cloth armor, dex and wisdom based (and monk already has an exception that sets the shield AC to 0, vigilante does not since it is shield AC already and thus doesn't stack), I feel confident.

I don't want to punish builds who want to use ele avatar by locking them out of it, and likewise 6/- vs 2/- on air is notable but not huge. Similarly if they are vigi or monk they aren't using a shield with DI to go with the DR.

The seeker builds caught eyes before even factoring ele avatar, and seeker is surprisingly strong before ele avatar as well. This change was likely to come eventually, and with this change I feel all in all confident. Many have said to me "Having a vigi or monk dip basically invalidates any reason to use air" and I understand, but each stream already has a niche it leans towards and partly by design. Air is, granted, the one stream that provides an alternative playstyle while the other 4 complement a playstyle (anyone can benefit from regen or damage or DR, shield AC only takes the highest), but I think these values are now fine.

[Paint]

As someone who plays a strength seeker and complained earlier about 'some builds,' in this thread, I did half wonder if my complaints about EA would get Seeker nerfed, but I need you to understand right now that I have a dex character that, with EA, will reach 57 AC. Before the seeker nerf, the strength seeker of mine would've reached ~ 55 with the current iteration of EA.

I realize one number isn't the whole story, but it's still immensely impressive, considering that build has 12-20x2 crits, 10d6 sneak attacks, and very reliable pressure from added strength damage even when sneak attacks aren't providing the real pressure.

Luckily, if you have 4 rogue levels, you should still qualify for one AC from lightly armored. The other pro of this is that if you were full-gearing your dex like a madman, you can take two points you were gearing towards dex and gear something else instead now.

I agree with the nerf, anyway.

As for disabling EA features for characters with ki barrier/wis ac, those dips DO come at a cost, and usually the cost is reduced damage or reduced flexibility. I'm not going to say that Seeker/rog/vig for example isn't very strong and very effective, because it -is-, but at least in my experience, you get pigeonhole'd into relying on pugilism, which has a worse attack schedule than TWF, and that can matter a lot in PVP.

In my opinion, if Monk or Vig combos for seeker or warpriest end up being too strong, that combo should be hit elsewhere rather than EA.

[Morto]

You're issue sounds very closely tied to the Vigilance portion of this. Perhapse vigilance should be looked at more for it's seemingly over-strong dip-potential instead of cutting back an epic level ability which is intended to compensate for a sacrifice of powerful summons.

Why not just make the vigilance wisdom ability, exclusive to EA so they cannot operate at the same time? The ability is already exclusive against so many other factors. Divine Shield / Dwarf Stance / ETC.

[MissEvelyn]

Dex seekers generally will be wearing cloth armor with magic vestments as magic vestments does not scale with lightly armored, only the base value does, and the only armor of note that exceeds the +4 to +5 bonus was ranger studded leather, whose AC value caps at +4 dex modifier, else the draconic leathers which are a flat +5 and so benefit. Similarly, dex seekers already had 18 or more dex, and so got the +2 either way. Given the general propensity for cloth armor whose dex bonus is uncapped, they did not benefit nearly as much if at all as strength seekers

This feels very "There is only one right way to play a Dex Seeker", and the update seemingly affirms that.
I play a Dex Seeker who makes (made, I guess) use of Lightly Armored, because it increased the overall bonus to AC on top of what you got from the armor already. Meaning, Magic Vestment was useless to a Light Armor wearing Dexterity-based Seeker, as getting a +7 with Lightly Armored was always better than a +5. Further, it was nice to not have to slot Magic Vestment in the spellbook, in favor of something else, with an ability-score-starved class that never hits more than 19 hard Wisdom and thus has less spell slots to make use of.

Overall, there was no reason to nerf Dexterity-based Seekers. They were clearly not the problem, and they already struggle as it is.

[Svrtr]

Dex seekers generally will be wearing cloth armor with magic vestments as magic vestments does not scale with lightly armored, only the base value does, and the only armor of note that exceeds the +4 to +5 bonus was ranger studded leather, whose AC value caps at +4 dex modifier, else the draconic leathers which are a flat +5 and so benefit. Similarly, dex seekers already had 18 or more dex, and so got the +2 either way. Given the general propensity for cloth armor whose dex bonus is uncapped, they did not benefit nearly as much if at all as strength seekers

This feels very "There is only one right way to play a Dex Seeker", and the update seemingly affirms that.
I play a Dex Seeker who makes (made, I guess) use of Lightly Armored, because it increased the overall bonus to AC on top of what you got from the armor already. Meaning, Magic Vestment was useless to a Light Armor wearing Dexterity-based Seeker, as getting a +7 with Lightly Armored was always better than a +5. Further, it was nice to not have to slot Magic Vestment in the spellbook, in favor of something else, with an ability-score-starved class that never hits more than 19 hard Wisdom and thus has less spell slots to make use of.

Overall, there was no reason to nerf Dexterity-based Seekers. They were clearly not the problem, and they already struggle as it is.

Perhaps, and my apologies, but unfortunately it was necessary. Rogue dip with 3/4 CL scaling and its rogue weapon bonus is still nice, but unfortunately lightly armored was the root of the issue and there wasn't a clean way to neatly get both. The struggle between dex and strength is always one that is hard to equally account for both. Ill likely create a seeker change feedback thread unless someone has the chance before me, and talk about such there.

As a final note, with the live server feedback thread here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=45461

I will be locking this thread, and ask ele avatar feedback be posted there