New Monk Discussion - Design, Concept, Mechanics, Roleplay

[RedGiant]

This is not the detailed feedback some builders crave, but as someone who has had full and dipped monks in spades over the years, I have a suggestion.

We've already lowered AC, lowered SR, lowered speed, and gutted APR. Now we are throwing saves on the pile and ensuring that monks can only be a shadow of what currently exists even with deep investment. IMO, Monk was in a good place, except for the diversity issue.

As a brief historical lesson:
We got rid of the immortal, yet relatively harmless speedsters of vanilla.
We replaced them with tiny gods of the server.
We dialed this back to the current, stable if dull version, which did most of the things you think it would in a dip and made similarly respectable characters through deep investment.
(Forgive me if I left out an itereation.)

So, to reiterate, I'm not sure what problem we are currently trying to solve here other than the build diversity issue.

Which brings me back to, I think we need a change, but (respectfully) I am not sure this is it. Recommend we keep much more of the current Monk chassis. Accomplish the build diversity through add-on featc/paths yes! But use them as color on the proven, stable chassis that we have arrived at after many long years and much hard work.

Otherwise, we seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[PaaranDisen]

The definition of a prestige class is that it is unavailable at level 1 for a character, whereas a base class is the opposite. Therefore, this statement is false. Monk is a base class, not a prestige class. Its newest design being modular is intended to fit various concepts and that is up to personal interpretation. One can argue Warpriest, Seeker, Shaman, and whatnot, having synergies with other classes, are also prestige classes by that logic which is then, by definition, also false.

This response represents a confusion between necessity and sufficiency. It point out that is a necessary condition of being a base class to be able to be taken at level 1. Of course this is the case and nobody in the thread, I'd wager, would disagree with this. However it's an uncharitable straw man of the positions put forward. The idea of a 'base class' isn't solely defined by necessary but also sufficient conditions.

For example, if Loremaster were able to be taken at level 1 and somebody said 'this class behaves like a prestige class', they would be absolutely right even with the fact you can take it at level 1, because the way it functions and the abilities it affords are much more suitable to be gated behind a higher level, and behind prerequisites. And, design-wise, a good case can be made that base classes should be more accessible and easy to build for than a given prestige class on average.

And here's where the monk rework suffers. Because it looks for all intents and purposes like it is made with a design philosophy suited to a prestige class, not how a base class ought to be.

To be extra clear: pointing out that it is like a prestige class isn't describing it as a prestige class, it's prescribing that it doesn't fit the normative standards of a base class.

An example of this fallacy would be somebody claiming "This teacher assaulted a student for talking back, they don't behave like a teacher!" then an interlocutor responding with "They are employed at a school instructing students, that makes them a teacher.".

And to the point about synergies: Shamans, for instance, synergize with Tribal Barbarians, yet they're not a 'pick and mix' class. You can level as a pure shaman, bank in wisdom and you're set to be passable, mechanically speaking. I don't see that with the Monk rework.

[I will never sleep]

Does it need to happen? No.

Why does it need to happen? No one can truly answer a why question other than a subjective desire to make something better than it was, at least that is, again, my take.

Let's not get stuck on the why. We all have our reasons as to why we're here, what will be more productive is the how on this monk rework will/should happen.

I'm sorry, but no.

While I respect the relative work that has gone into this, there's a term for that. It's called fixing what isn't broken.

I don't know about you, but I am here to roleplay and play Neverwinter Nights. I am not here to debate how to fundamentally change one of the base classes of that 20 year old game because its Jax in League of Legends and thus must be built again from the ground up. Every other base class is at least close to what the original class was, maybe expanded on a little. As several other people have laid out in this thread. Some are even made viable!

Invoker is a bit weird, but it is its own class. Did it kind of overwrite and stepover people that previously enjoyed the old trueflame sorc? Yes. A little bit, but that was also custom so c'est la vie.

Vigilante is a bit weird, but it is it's own class, etc.

Making a new character and engaging with these was a choice. Now whoever was playing a monk before is going to be greeted with needing to cite an out of game spreadsheet to even build your class properly because of an overly convoluted feat pre requisite system for your class abilities to even work... On what was previously a pretty straightforward class!

Here's an idea. Just make a bunch of variant monks, instead of this amorphous blob. Make a Kenji Monk! Leave one that is at least close to the way vanilla monk worked (this seems to be "Body Discipline", by way of things).

--

Also "mind monk == crafting == european monk" is goofy as hell. But other people seem to be carrying that torch for me.

[Xerah]

I think you'd get a lot more favourable views on this if you took away most of the choices, granted the "best" feats at specific levels (at the same rate as the feat production; one of which could be similar to current monk bonus feat progression) for each of the paths, then add a feat every 5 levels that have a small pool of "flavour"/non-optimal feats for each path.

It's a shame to lose the modability of monk in its this format, but I think people would like it better.

[ThalantyrS]

Hi, I think this is my first forum post, so I might as well introduce myself. I am Thalantyr, I play Koros (Monk WM) and Deshade (Shadowdancer). I have been playing on Arelith for two or three months only, after not playing NWN online since 2007. I did play a lot back then for years, always PW RP servers. I also have played PnP D&D since that time and until today.

I really like a lot of Arelith new classes and changes on classes. However, this one I am not so sure about and here are my two cents if you would have them.

I understand the idea of "choosing your path" and flexibility for builds, but I feel that with these changes, the monk end up way too generic, like a fighter. It seems way too LETS MAKE BUILDS oriented and not role play oriented. I personally like my monk, I like that I gave him the background and flavor I wanted while keeping him a monk. A martial artist, a channel for ki, with unique manifestations of its power. I like that, for example, while ROLE PLAYING I get captured and my weapon taken, I am still someone that can defend himself with his fists. I even use them from time to time, because it is part of my training, something inherent in the monk tradition. Some monk features should remain unique and inherent to being a monk in my opinion.

Kenji you wrote above: "the real-life inspiration for monk design is mainly for the mechanics of the class. The new feats and abilities will attempt to introduce as little to no new lore as possible to the setting.". I do not see exactly the reason for that approach. Lore is what makes us be a part of Forgotten Realms and not a real like monk that has no place in FR. You should not play whatever you want, you should play something that fits the setting, and I feel this monk rework is more of a New Class that is not Monk anymore. You can rename it and may be have something interesting to build around as it has already stripped out quite a few things that made monk unique. Remove the rest monk specific stuff and you may have a nice new class, that found a new way to channel their Ki. But I would not make someone invest 6 feats to become a martial artist, have that special monk AC, lose the monk AB and become something that is not a monk anymore.

I know you said it is already being reworked, but the drunken fist for example, someone already mentioned that monks that use that technique just mimic it, they are not actually drunk. My question is how it was even considered for the monk to be drunk in the first place. I am clearly in no position to ask anything, but I am curious of where all this rework and ideas come from. I think there are good resources of monk material out there that can make for interesting changes and paths for monks, without making it so generic and take 20 feats to mix it up the way you want even if it is not a monk anymore.

That is my concern, I could talk about it for hours but I think the general idea is there. Even if my word is not as relevant here as I am really new and I don't even know that much about Arelith, this is how I feel about it. And I am sorry if I come across to strong, English is not my native language and even in my native language I struggle to have tact. Kenji or anybody is more than welcome to ping me on Discord and chat about it, but I know I'm too late to the conversation when what I am proposing is to bin the whole rework or re-rework it into a new class while still missing a change for monk. That is probably not going to happen but if help is needed and is willing to be received from another perspective I am more than happy to help.

Thalantyr

[Kenji]

I am making this thread to move specific posts away from the monk mechanics feedback. So I may address them without derailing the thread meant for feedback on the changes rather than my design decisions. I will get to them when I have the time and energy.

Those who wish to voice their discontent (or satisfaction) about the direction of the monk overhaul, feel free to do so here.

I have a fundamental concern with this replacing the core class of monk but that is more a design concern and probably best raised in the other thread about arelith design decisions. In summary though this strays way too far from the core class of monk for my liking. If it is to implemented then I would favour instead deleting the monk class and calling this something else, essentially so as not to mislead new players to Arelith and also as a mark of respect to the original creators of the monk class.

[Kenji]

Hi, I think this is my first forum post, so I might as well introduce myself. I am Thalantyr, I play Koros (Monk WM) and Deshade (Shadowdancer). I have been playing on Arelith for two or three months only, after not playing NWN online since 2007. I did play a lot back then for years, always PW RP servers. I also have played PnP D&D since that time and until today.

Welcome to Arelith.

I understand the idea of "choosing your path" and flexibility for builds, but I feel that with these changes, the monk end up way too generic, like a fighter. It seems way too LETS MAKE BUILDS oriented and not role play oriented.

Mechanics and Roleplay are correlated in the sense that mechanics sometimes reflect what roleplays can be made available. The whole point of the monk overhaul is to make all kinds of roleplay pertaining to the concept of "Monk" more available.

Many people often have the misconception that mechanics and roleplay are inversely related to each other, which is not true. Focusing on one does not take away from the other.

So here's a new perspective for you, ready?
Monk Overhaul is both "LETS MAKE BUILDS" and "roleplay oriented", how exciting!

Before Monk Overhaul, one had fist monks and more fist monks. Weapon Monks are the butt end of the joke. Now, with Monk Overhaul, one can have all kinds of variations of monk builds to cater to their roleplay.

I personally like my monk, I like that I gave him the background and flavor I wanted while keeping him a monk. A martial artist, a channel for ki, with unique manifestations of its power.

And you can just build right back into whatever it is on your mind your monk should be with Monk Overhaul, no one is stopping you except your own expectations or impressions.

I like that, for example, while ROLE PLAYING I get captured and my weapon taken, I am still someone that can defend himself with his fists. I even use them from time to time, because it is part of my training, something inherent in the monk tradition.

And you still can, monk overhaul doesn't take that away from your character. Your character just needs to train for it, like everyone else does. And as an added bonus, Monks will still be the better class at it than everyone else.

Some monk features should remain unique and inherent to being a monk in my opinion.

You're going to have to be more specific. What monk features should remain unique and inherent to being a monk?

Kenji you wrote above: "the real-life inspiration for monk design is mainly for the mechanics of the class. The new feats and abilities will attempt to introduce as little to no new lore as possible to the setting.". I do not see exactly the reason for that approach. Lore is what makes us be a part of Forgotten Realms and not a real like monk that has no place in FR. You should not play whatever you want, you should play something that fits the setting, and I feel this monk rework is more of a New Class that is not Monk anymore. You can rename it and may be have something interesting to build around as it has already stripped out quite a few things that made monk unique. Remove the rest monk specific stuff and you may have a nice new class, that found a new way to channel their Ki. But I would not make someone invest 6 feats to become a martial artist, have that special monk AC, lose the monk AB and become something that is not a monk anymore.

Because there exist Monk Orders within the Forgotten Realm setting that Arelith is set in already. Do you want us to introduce something along the lines of "I am a missionary of Jesus Christ", "I am a disciple of Shao Lin", "I am a Wu Don practitioner", or "I practice Shinto" on Arelith? This is why the mechanics are not there to introduce new lore but cater to existing ones.

Even if you do, I'm 99% certain that is not what Irongron or the writing team wants at all. It's certainly not what I want.

I know you said it is already being reworked, but the drunken fist for example, someone already mentioned that monks that use that technique just mimic it, they are not actually drunk. My question is how it was even considered for the monk to be drunk in the first place. I am clearly in no position to ask anything, but I am curious of where all this rework and ideas come from. I think there are good resources of monk material out there that can make for interesting changes and paths for monks, without making it so generic and take 20 feats to mix it up the way you want even if it is not a monk anymore.

Here's a snippet of the inspiration I took from various fiction and movies:
(Technique: Dragon Sundering Eighteen Palm) Search "降龍十八掌" on Google

(Stance: Equipoise) Tai Ji Fist, from Kung Fu Hustle
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx3ttgOiV-8H ... ZOjlp6ewV2

(Nine Sword of the Recluse) Du Gu Nine Sword, or search "独孤九剑" on Google

My question is how it was even considered for the monk to be drunk in the first place.

(Drunken Fist) Drunken Master, a Jackie Chan movie
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxjxJ9oTClDJ ... qgsmZHqJwN

It is important to recognize here that, in the end, Arelith is a fantasy world with magic, fantastical creatures, intervening deities, and entities beyond our comprehension. Strict adherence to realism is boring and the antithesis of what this fantasy world is about.

Take Drunken Master for example, it is like Dreams said, Drunken Fist was never about getting drunk, but about deception. If the moviemakers focused so much on that instead of one's imagination, then Jackie Chan's movie is probably not going to be as entertaining.

[ThalantyrS]

I don't think I can make a monk build as versatile with this rework, losing all its inherent abilities and forcing you to chose a subset to your liking. Choosing to your liking class is the fighter. As I said before, this is fighter 2.0, a focusless canvas that is whatever you want, and certainly not a monk in most cases. As the other post your quoted, this should have another name for me. But besides that, I think my point is clear.

Regarding lore and inspiration, someone decided that Arelith is part of Forgotten Realms. Whether you like it or not, it is there and I don't think you can steer too far from what FR is. I don't think you should get inspiration from outside FR even if you try to adapt it very well, if its not part of FR it doesn't really make sense. I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about being true to the lore of the place SOMEONE decided Arelith to be part of. And if you want to introduce something external as "what would this be in FR?" it should be something new, not break a well stablished class in FR and DnD to introduce inspiration from films and current world martial arts.

But of course that is just my opinion, I shall not be a pest about it and complain all the time haha I think that is enough. Besides replacing the Monk with this, I really like what you are doing and looks like a cool concept. Great work.

[Kenji]

Maybe you'll change your mind when PGCC comes around; maybe you won't. I can only say that Monk Overhaul will happen eventually, and make the best of it if you will. Keep an open mind.

Regarding lore and inspiration, someone decided that Arelith is part of Forgotten Realms. Whether you like it or not, it is there and I don't think you can steer too far from what FR is. I don't think you should get inspiration from outside FR even if you try to adapt it very well, if its not part of FR it doesn't really make sense. I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about being true to the lore of the place SOMEONE decided Arelith to be part of. And if you want to introduce something external as "what would this be in FR?" it should be something new, not break a well stablished class in FR and DnD to introduce inspiration from films and current world martial arts.

I hope you realize that things outside FR inspire plenty of things. Many things inside FR are inspired by the real world.

Let's start with the basics:
Bastard Sword and Longsword are the same thing in real life. In D&D and FR, they are mechanically different because they're named differently
Short swords aren't a thing IRL. There are gladius and arming swords, but does that stop them from being used to inspire a whole new class of swords?

Now, nations, city-states, and continents:
We have various Not-Asia, Not-Middle-East, and Not-European areas and cultures that took inspiration from those aforementioned places.

Deities! Need I say more?

FR Monk is also unironically inspired by some of RL monk traditions. Can you guess which?

I'm simply broadening a horizon and doing so out of the respect of the original creators.

But of course that is just my opinion, I shall not be a pest about it and complain all the time haha I think that is enough. Besides replacing the Monk with this, I really like what you are doing and looks like a cool concept. Great work.

This discussion is important because you're certainly not the only one to feel this way. Vitriol and toxicity aside (I am not saying your posts are), the lack of discussion breeds further misunderstanding and is more detrimental to the cohesion of a community than most realize.

As much as your opinion may be of a minority, it doesn't mean it is to be dismissed entirely.

[ThalantyrS]

Bastard Sword and Longsword are the same thing in real life. In D&D and FR, they are mechanically different because they're named differently

FR Monk is also unironically inspired by some of RL monk traditions. Can you guess which?

I'm simply broadening a horizon and doing so out of the respect of the original creators.

Well, I take that analogy. I agree that FR took inspiration in the real world somewhat, but they created something with certain purpouse. They created the Longsword of FR, a slashing metal weapon that in this case is a bit different to the Bastard Sword of FR that falls in the exotic category. And now it feels as if the Longsword is going to be made the material you want, including a leather blade, and it can do the type of damage that you want, including bludgeoning. But it is still a Longsword.

In my opinion, I do not feel this really brodens the Monk, but it changes it completely. I think we agree completely on the concepts, but this rework wants to name it monk and remove the monk and I want to name it something else and keep the monk too, as I would keep the Longsword and introduce a new weapon inspired by some real sword that can be leather and bludgeoning. This is not to say that the monk is perfect in the world of Arelith, you can probably introduce a few changes to it. But keeping its core.

I am glad that you are open to the discussion Kenji. And of course I will test it in PGCC and I will have no other choice than to test it live when my monk changes to this haha I will certainly keep an open mind and play with what I am given. I prefer that you do a monk I dislike than not having all the other things I like from Arelith that someone at some point surely thought were not a good idea.

[Lacki]

words

To be honest, my main problem with the rework is the way it shoehorns you into being a single type of monk in terms of flavour. Let's take spell resist as an example. Do you, as a monk player, want spell resistance (though I'm not sure why you would given how much it sucks )? Right now, you get it for free as part of your standard levelling up. After the rework? You HAVE to be the religious monk type. You HAVE to be a quasi-priest/cleric. While that kind of suits the character I have going on, it's not a perfect fit.

Of course, I'm not saying that current monk doesn't also shoehorn the player. With the complete lack of choice in how you can build it, it 100% does. What I'm saying is that you can fluff the current stock monk abilities how you want, with a few limits - your character has perfected their body and soul through their journey as a monk. Is that through their god? Meditation? Pure martial spirit and willpower? Internal alchemy? You decide. Meanwhile, a lot of the new monk abilities (at least on the spiritual and martial end) have very clearly defined fluff and themes to them.

I also feel like the rework robs the class of some level of simplicity. You play monk, you punch good (as long as you don't take Circle Kick). You get higher levels, you punch even better. You get to the highest levels, you achieve perfection, resisting a whole lotta stuff and punching really, really good. It's a very pick-up-and-play kind of class and I enjoyed that aspect of it - just buff a little and go punch some dudes. With the rework, though, I'll have to navigate a spreadsheet and put in actual effort to make sure that I'll be able to play the video game instead of my monk being useless because I didn't take a vital and necessary feat at level 20, whoopsie!

All that said, I'm confident that once I get used to the changes both mechanically and fluffily, I'll be fine. It's just a matter of time and experimentation, I guess.

[Kenji]

I also feel like the rework robs the class of some level of simplicity. You play monk, you punch good (as long as you don't take Circle Kick). You get higher levels, you punch even better. You get to the highest levels, you achieve perfection, resisting a whole lotta stuff and punching really, really good. It's a very pick-up-and-play kind of class and I enjoyed that aspect of it - just buff a little and go punch some dudes. With the rework, though, I'll have to navigate a spreadsheet and put in actual effort to make sure that I'll be able to play the video game instead of my monk being useless because I didn't take a vital and necessary feat at level 20, whoopsie!

All that said, I'm confident that once I get used to the changes both mechanically and fluffily, I'll be fine. It's just a matter of time and experimentation, I guess.

Oh, it only robbed some level of simplicity? That's a fairly tame assessment. I'd say the overhaul is about to take away all of the class's simplicity and make Monk one of the more, if not the most, complicated classes there is! And I can understand where the pushback and concern are coming from for this design decision.

I have plans to utilize the engine's "Package" and "Recommend" button systems to help players navigate this. Will it be a perfect tool on release? Likely not. It might even be a complete failure, and I am ready to accept that. This will be the first attempt at introducing new packages explicitly tailored to Arelith's meta of building rather than vanilla NWN's suboptimal distribution.

It's all new grounds for development, and players have often deemed the "Package" and "Recommend" buttons to be completely useless and, in fact, detrimental to a player character's build in the long run: Distributing skills at level 1, which is near irreversible, cross classing skills which is a waste of skill points, and taking useless feats indicated in this thread here.

But if we can refurbish those two buttons (which are neigh unremovable from what I can tell, for now), we can then use that knowledge to apply to the rest of the classes and help foster a better mechanics culture, whatever the nomenclature for that is.

[Kenji]

In my opinion, I do not feel this really brodens the Monk, but it changes it completely. I think we agree completely on the concepts, but this rework wants to name it monk and remove the monk and I want to name it something else and keep the monk too, as I would keep the Longsword and introduce a new weapon inspired by some real sword that can be leather and bludgeoning. This is not to say that the monk is perfect in the world of Arelith, you can probably introduce a few changes to it. But keeping its core.

Let's approach this statistically.

1. (Level 30 only) The latest census shows that out of 60ish monk builds, about 55% are monk dips, and 40% are dedicated monks. 5% had middling monks. Another source shows that out of those 60ish numbers, 10ish were pure monks, meaning that half of the 40% majority were pure monks. The rest combine Earthkin Defender, fighter, CoT, LM, or even assassin dips.

   • The number suggests monk builds are split into two camps: Fist monks or monk dips.
   • Weapon monks, I can currently account for at least 2 level 30s: a Monk/Weapon Master/Ftr and a Monk/Ranger/Ftr.

2. In mechanics, we have two types of metrics: Viability and Competitive

   • Viability means a build is viable in most Arelith content, PvE and RP, where one can enjoy the content without feeling adequate.
   • Competitive builds are considered well-rounded or top-performing (or both) builds in PvP and may determine the outcome of a 1v1, group, or lopsided PvP. This is often assuming roughly equally skilled players play the different builds.

3. By your analogy, replacing a longsword's metal parts with leather and thus changing it to bludgeoning instead of slashing damage type is 100% removing the original functionality and then adding on different functionalities while still calling it the same thing because it is the same shape.

Considering all of the above, it's easy to say the longsword chassis is the monk class chassis. Fist monk is the metal parts of the blade. Weapon monk is the tapered tip end of the blade. Dip monks are the hilt and crossguard.

The longsword on Arelith is a slashing weapon; therefore, piercing (weapon monk) is not represented as much here.
(even though real-life longsword HEMA/SCA and its various treatises treat longsword as a dueling and fairly balanced, finesse weapon, where thrust/piercing is a part of it, I digress)

Back to the claim that the overhaul has changed the metal parts of the blade to leather, thus changing everything about the longsword except the chassis. So I take it that it's saying the fist monk is fundamentally changed.

I would see it this way: the overhaul added options to have a serrated edge to the blade, perhaps magical/spiritual enhancement of the longsword, or different ways of decorating the crossguard and hilt. Functionally, it can still slash (fist monk), but it can also thrust now (weapon monks).

A deeper dive into the analogy is instead of the one way to do longsword combat before the overhaul, monk players can now do various stances of longsword duel: two-handed stance, duelist stance, overhead stance - adequately represents the different stances a monk can now do with both their weapon or fist builds.

Suffice it to say, I'm afraid I have to disagree with the assessment of the analogy. Fist Monk and Dip Monk's functional parts are still there, even if they may look different. Fist monks, old or new, do not perform any more differently than "click, I punch and kick my way to victory." Perhaps with an added flare of stances for specific encounters that perform better than before.

Note: two sources for statistics are:

1. Kalopsia's class popularity by level investment histogram (public access, link here)
2. Contributor's Class Audit (no public access)

[RedGiant]

Oh, it only robbed some level of simplicity? That's a fairly tame assessment. I'd say the overhaul is about to take away all of the class's simplicity and make Monk one of the more, if not the most, complicated classes there is! And I can understand where the pushback and concern are coming from for this design decision.

I don't think we can overemphasize this point. Perhaps the convenience class is now the tweaker's class. I think some recommended builds to do things monks are known for (fisted, weaponed, dip) on release would go a long way to easing this fear. I'm watching the feedback thread and I like where the SR discussion is going. Keeping what we can of the chassis has always been my concern.

[Curve]

For what it’s worth I have not played a monk since these changes were announced because I feared having my characters mechanics changed overnight, and historically I lose interest when that happens.

I don’t know if people being hesitant to play monks for this reason is statistically significant or not.

[ReverentBlade]

I swore off monks after the first rework broke my main character so horribly that she had to be rolled out of her misery. Three PCs and several years later, I'm back on a monk, and regretting it. I don't think the rework will break her, but it is certainly looking like a nerf on an already middle of the road character. Sweeping reworks usually prompt long breaks, at least for me. Change fatigue is real.

[ThalantyrS]

• The number suggests monk builds are split into two camps: Fist monks or monk dips.
• Weapon monks, I can currently account for at least 2 level 30s: a Monk/Weapon Master/Ftr and a Monk/Ranger/Ftr.

My character is Monk/Ftr/WM, you can tell I have been away from NWN for over 15 years haha it was a random thing I started building to try Arelith without know anything about the server, and it ended up quite ok. I don't know on real PvP, but my one experience in PvP did not go bad at all. Of course I would not really now how the real meta it is. I am glad it is unique because I did not make him with PvP in mind, I do not make any of my characters like that really, just powerful and interesting enough for me, since I am in a RP server.

But then again I feel like dipping on Let's make the best build talk and not RP. I actually role played how I got my monk abilities as I was leveling up, now I will have to say that I lost them? Somehow now since I am weapon monk I am bad with fist? I no longer resist spells and mind spells like before? Is the eye glow still there? I role played all this. His ability to deflect arrows and mastery of knocking down from the training in his past. Fighting with fists and weapons alike because he continues to train with both as a martial art. The inmunities to poison and disease that he spent a long time in the deserts of Sibayad building. His resistance to spells that he felt the need to focus his ki on to overcome the fact he is not a spell caster in a world so full of spellcasters (which there weren't in the past of my character). After taking a shine on a druid he learned respect to nature, so he decide to focus find a way to focus Ki in his palm to, given no other choice, trying to put them down in one swift quivering palm or at least use his fist to not use a heavily enchanted blade that seems like a way more traumatic way to go for an animal. Finally, after someone showed him to the shadow plane he took and interest in shadows and spent a lot of time interacting with them, and shaping his ki to mimic the shadows empty body and to gain their resistance to normal weapons and mind affecting spells. I role played my monk from beginning to end in almost every aspect. What is going to happen with all that? This is just my case, I probably won't have an issue epic sacrificing him (I have lore and rp behind him to easily do it) but other people may be don't want to do that. That is another reason for me to not completely change a class and may be just make a new one.

I will have to test it but I do not think there are enough feats to rebuild monk as it was, am I wrong there? Can I make my exact same monk with the same abilities after this rework? I do not care if they are more or less powerful, I care if they are there (and of course less powerful does not mean he becomes unplayable haha). When I rebuild my monk I will let you know, let us know when this is on PGCC!

[Opustus]

A very cool overhaul, you've clearly put a lot of thought and heart into it!

I will be commenting the Spiritual Discipline from a pretty base designey point of view. If this is the wrong thread, please point me to the right one and I'll post this there. If the design is too far along already for these kinds of changes, please feel free to disregard completely.

1) I love the concept and the abilities bring it to life! There's definitely demand for this flavor of monk.

2) The tie-in with -pray seems odd from a lore-thematic viewpoint. If -pray is essentially a divine intervention from the gods, why are the gods more ready to intervene for them than clerics or true souls? Mechanically, you will be combining monk's abilities with a universal ability shared across every single player character. Additionally, having increased charges of -pray that aren't visible in the monk radial menu seems a bit incohesive. Instead of using -pray, I think you should be instead using Spiritual Serenpidity as a base and build the synergestic feats on that. It would appear in the monk radial, with charges and other goodies in sight for conceptual cohesion. This way you create a closed ability for monkly purposes, which makes balancing and flavoring easier while giving you more creative freedom too.

2a) Following up on that idea: I would exchange the names between Spiritual Serenpidity and Mantra, and make the mantra the "monk's -pray" and a key ability of the Spiritual Discipline. It could be automatically gained when specced into the Spiritual Discipline. Or it could be selected by the monk bonus feats, like with an MMO skill tree where the first feat unlocks the base ability and the subsequent feats along that branch modify it. Conceptually it means that monks of the Spiritual Discipline would chant their monastic mantras before or in the midst of battle to heighten themselves spiritually, that's cool and fitting right? Roleplay-wise stealthy sneaky mantras could be just mouthing the words or muttering under one's breath. The mantra could cost piety, similar to -pray, and the rest of the -pray bonuses could just affect the mantra instead.

3) I love the ability to rest a lot. This opens up so many unique builds that are currently hurt by the rest bar micromanagement. If I ever find the time, I will tinker the hell out of this feature.

[MRFTW]

1. (Level 30 only) The latest census shows that out of 60ish monk builds, about 55% are monk dips, and 40% are dedicated monks. 5% had middling monks. Another source shows that out of those 60ish numbers, 10ish were pure monks, meaning that half of the 40% majority were pure monks. The rest combine Earthkin Defender, fighter, CoT, LM, or even assassin dips.
   • The number suggests monk builds are split into two camps: Fist monks or monk dips.
   • Weapon monks, I can currently account for at least 2 level 30s: a Monk/Weapon Master/Ftr and a Monk/Ranger/Ftr.

I played a monk 20 IB 5 EKD 5 as a dual-wielding katar monk.

If it bled, I could (eventually) kill it.

[MDuke]

First off, wow! I did not know I represent 20% of the pure monks on Arelith, so I have 2 pure fist monk characters. That being said, I hope my input would be helpful.

Personally, I feel the monk is already underpowered due to the low number of skill points and restrictions in place. I have played both of these characters for almost 18 months; they were my first two Arelith characters, and I had no idea what I was doing in the Arelith systems. I made some basic mistakes at 1st level that can't be corrected.

I admit I hate PVP, and I only do okay when I have a high-level cleric and bard around for support. Otherwise, I am taken out quickly, even with a 60+ AC. No matter what, you still get hit with a 20. I can't use magical devices, and I have only two choices in armor. Since I don't use weapons or shields, those two slots are useless. There is only one real choice for gloves as a weapon, and all those special abilities monks have are mostly useless. Quivering Palm has never worked for me, and Stunning Fist is almost useless; a hin can outrun me. Rogues and swashbucklers get way more skill points than a monk, who has trained to focus their mind and had mentors to teach them, with vast archives to consult and look up centuries of knowledge.

I know everyone wants their character to be able to do everything great and at the maximum, so I am not saying that balance is wrong, and we should all get a pony for Christmas. But I think the game, at least fighting and skill-wise, already strongly favors the fighter and rogues, which is why so many people play them. In the limited time I had to test in PGCC last time, I don't think any of the proposed changes made my characters better. It just gave new limitations to have to work around. Personally, I don't think the issue is a lack of diversity as to why people don't play monks. The issue is you can build a much stronger character with other classes.

With all that being said, these two are in the top 3 of my all-time favorite D&Dish characters, so I am fairly biased against changing them. If I wanted a new character, I would roll up a new one. My biggest issue with the change is I work a full-time job and take care of an elderly parent. I just don't have time for the complexity of charting out a rebuild of my characters that will come out close to but less than what I have now. I use this game to escape the analysis type work I do in real life. If you can add new monk variations and leave the old class the way it is, that would be my vote if I got a vote. Maybe you should not allow dips for the current default monk, make it a locked class. If you're in for the 1st level, you're in for 30. As you can see, I am biased, LOL.

BTW, Thanks for building the Arelith world I really do enjoy it.

[chocolatelover]

Kenji said,
Oh, it only robbed some level of simplicity? That's a fairly tame assessment. I'd say the overhaul is about to take away all of the class's simplicity and make Monk one of the more, if not the most, complicated classes there is! And I can understand where the pushback and concern are coming from for this design decision.

I think getting rid of the simple classic monk is the issue. It wouldn't be right to say "I don't like these new monk classes and don't want to play them," but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't like to play them, so the same holds true of the classic monk.

Arelith has a diverse player base. Some people enjoy "studying" builds and strategies. Some of us are bad at PVP and PVE and just want to play something fun where we do not have to have 80 windows open and rely on reaction speed just to do PVE. Please keep ALL players in mind (trying desperately not to say older and slower, but there it is)

So, make all the new monk paths.... but can you leave the classic one??