HARBINGER FEEDBACK

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Amnesy
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Amnesy » Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:43 pm

Algol wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:51 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:31 pm

My only concern is the synergy with Paladin, since Paladin is a Lawful Good -only class.

Hexblade is awaiting an update, its features are enhanced and packaged under a revised class name: Harbinger. The updated class has strong roots in Hexes and Curses, and provides the ability to select one of 3 paths with different themes:

  • Crimson Count(ess), who brings blood arcana theme,

  • Cursed Razor, who specializes in curses,

  • Dark Seraph, who brings the most direct force.

None of this sounds like it should be available to characters of good alignment. So my question, is the synergy intentionally made for fallen paladins?

The paladin gets bonuses against detecting curse from a harbinger.

For detecting curses in general. Does not need to be issued by Harb.


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by kinginyellow » Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:58 pm

I've spent some more time reading through the document and properly thinking about the class, features and paths provided. This is all still just theorycrafting:

I agree with everything that was posted by Shadowy Reality as far as the base class Hitdice and ab/ac is compared to old Hexblade. Their math holds up.

The class gets 3 Pre Epic, and 3 Post Epic class feats to pick from.

I've mostly compared the paths to eachother and have thought about how their atrocities work in combination with what I think would be most builds for this.

First of all, it can't use UMD natively, but since its an arcane caster with up to 4th level spells, it can use most of the important wands without the need to take it. UMD would only really matter for using grimoires, but I can easily see a lot of people giving up 1 of their epic class feats to either get access to UMD for some of the stronger grimoires for either PVE or PVP and to get +3 AC from tumble, as the class also does not get it natively. I would consider this a budget Misfortune's Favor. You don't get +4 uni saves, you don't get defensive roll, but you get evasion, and if you take the Dark Blessing epic feat the uni saves wouldn't have mattered anyway.

You also need to consider +4 uni saves and defensive roll, vs access to Grimoire Timestop, Lesser Mind Blank, Breach. . .

Then you need to consider that in order to take advantage of its spell list, which you should since you can get pretty long lasting improved invis and extended haste, or other effects like Predator for blood count, you want at least 14 Charisma. A lot of your DCs also scale with charisma. I can see people going something like 16 / 8 / 12 / 14 / 8 / 16 and taking the +2 STR and CHA gifts, and then just going all in on STR from that point on, which means at best you're getting a +10 bonus from charisma modifiers to your ability DCs.

Assuming pure Harbringer, 12 + 15 + 10. That means most of your class abilities will have a dc of 37. Invocations will have a DC of 39. They can improved by +4 with Woe Drinker, which also increases damage. So, 41 for strikes and whispers, 43 for Invocations. If you take Hex of Acedia, 44 for Strikes and Whispers against targets of Dark Claim, 46 with invocations.

I actually don't think these DCs are bad at all. Combined with the fact that you can make Dark Claim also be a Breach 4, you could cast lesser breach, followed by this, and -maybe- you get to land your special effects. I can see a Harbringer actually managing to land its stuns and dazes if they go Dark Seraph in group pvp if there's a dirgesinger and someone with mindfog in their party. Not everyone is running 50 All Saves.

That said, assuming someone builds for the above, and they go all in on Harbinger:

I see divine patronage being taken 99% of the time. Since you're using charisma there's no reason to not go for a Divine Might / Divine Shield build.

I see Cursed Armaments being taken 99% of the time. Epic Prowess at epic levels is pretty good, uncapped Death Armor with refund is pretty good, and if you go for a 8 dex build you will need heavy armor. Access to exotic weapons without needing to take a feat is also pretty great.

And assuming someone goes for the above Hex of Acedia is the only fill slot. Where you may or may not take it based on wether or not you want to rely on DCs in PVP. I expect most people not taking it to favor instead something like Hex of Allucination since it helps with AB, or Mortality Undone for the DI and Epic Toughness, even if it ends up not matching what previous hexblade used to have.

If Cursed Armaments stacks with Eldritch Patronage I can see it being taken to maintain death armor, but I see this more as a PVE option. You won't run out of recasts in PVP before you've either died or the enemy ran out of non-item breaches. I also see it as low in the priority list to reapply if you've been hit by a breach. But, if you're taking this you're not taking Mortality Undone because of the ammount of class power slots you have pre-epic, so I also think even as a PVE option its a bad idea, as you're better off just not getting hit, and having death armor to do -some- damage in the fights you know you're going to get hit anyway.

Either way, I echo what Shadowy Reality said about the Improved Cursed Weapon line because of 5/- essences existing. Especially on Cursed Razor and Dark Seraph. Dark Seraph suffers from how popular entropy damage is at the moment, cursed razor is splitting damage between 2 damage types, which means potentially both can be hit with the 5/- immunity. Also, psychic damage is resisted by a surprising ammount of monsters in PVE fully. I helped a friend level a starpact warlock in the underdark recently, and until he could get his entropy beam (and withering ray) he was relegated to fire blades duty since most targets would only take magic damage from his eldritch blast.

Then there's the epic powers.

Woe Drinker on paper might be good for PVE and PVP for specific paths. I can see woe drinker permitting the Melee blood Count atrocity to actually be pretty disgusting as a finisher when people are low on HP.

The Breach Hex is insane.

The Oathbreaker hex is also insane.

Improved Dark Claim is bad. Its a purely PVE thing in my opinion, and goes directly against taking the breach or oathbreaker hex. Those two you want to use at the start of a fight, and they synergize with what the dark claims do. Count does a DoT, Dark Seraph increases its elemental damage and you want it to run out on something that's super tough when its low on HP so the DoT damage helps kill it. (I don't like this part of the Dark Seraph Dark Claim btw.) You also want cursed razor's hex to be applied at the start of a fight so you deal more damage with your atrocities and weapon imbue.

Crown of Malevolence is amazing since if you're going +10 Charisma you have little reason not to take it to get +10 uni saves.

Greater weapon hex is bad because you need improved weapon hex to get it, so it comes with the requirement of having given up a class feat slot for it. I, again, agree with alkmost everything shadowy reality said about it when he analysed this skill, I think in the context of what you need to give up for it, its even worse.

I don't like Misfortune's Favor, as if I'm going to give up an epic feat slot for evasion, I'll just take rogue levels.

Then there's the atrocities themselves and specific path abilities.

So far my thinking is that Blood Count(ess) and Dark Seraph are about on par with each other, and Cursed Razor needs a look at.

Even before I made the mistake of thinking Blood Count(ess) DR from killing a claimed target would stack with EDR for PVE facetanking, it seems like the comfy choice for PVE with its ability to self heal with almost all of its atrocities.

Its strike atrocity is probably the best out of all of them because of its scaling nature with missing % HP, and synergizes with its dark claim letting it heal and get DR from killing something with an atrocity, which is what you're going to want to be using this for in PVE. In PVP this ability is still a finisher, and depending on how it works, if its a free attack action like a divine smite, it can be used to snipe low HP targets in melee before they can use potions depending on how much damage you can frontload into it. It is also the only ability that has no saving throw to fully resist its unique effect.

I like it in concept a lot, I need to try it in practice.

Before I talk about Royal Decree I need to talk about all the ranged atrocities. All of them have relatively low the damage scaling. But at the same time, it is not written anywhere what type of action this is. If its a free action, its fine. If it takes an action to cast, it is very situational use.

The fear effect is meh. Again, depends on if its a free action or not so you can tell a pve target to go away for a while.

The kill on cast on 20% or lower hp target on a DC I'm not sure how I feel about. This is another ability that goes against Improved Dark Claim, since it already forces that roll if you actually took that ability, and if you don't, if the whisper is a free action and you're in melee with your hexed target I guess you could throw this out before trying to use the strike atrocity to guarantee the kill? Otherwise you can try to kill people running away from you on low HP, but the save being targeted is one that's commonly high, so I don't see this succeeding often.

Blood Homunculus access on a cooldown and vermillion stars is pretty cool.

The Invocation I'll need to test if it heals enough in PVE to be worth. Even if it was a standard action to use it might be good.

Cursed Razor I'm mixed on.

+4 DC on Bestow Curse. I only see this used for RP. Even with 100% refund on bestow curse, the best CC is either incapacitation or death. I do not like this.

Baleful Polymorph I like a lot more but I'm mixed on since I don't see the DC on it ever becoming viable since it doesn't receive the Atrocity DC treatment.

I don't see the greater curses being used in PVE either. Access to curse storm on a cooldown is pretty great.

The Harbinger's Curse worth will be judged by how impactful the greater curses can be in PVP. My only concern with this ability and the new curses in general is t he development of a meta where you hostile someone to curse them, then run away, and repeat until you've debilitated them enough to actually openly engage in pvp. This, of course, assuming they aren't a cleric with enough CL to just remove their own curses.

All of its atrocities have a DC attached to it that targets reflex to slow, immobilize, or force people near you. This is good against characters that dump Dex, but those are usually also characters you don't want to be close to, and might be able to outtrade you and kill you. More about this in Dark Seraph.

Dark Seraph I see being Cursed Razor but better.

It doesn't get any unique effects. Its elemental damage is just 1 type instead of being split to 2 so it can better bypass 5/- resistance and benefits more from the damage vulnerability (as you can roll more total damage).

Bleak Prophecy is entropy vulnerability. That's good. Bleak Prophecy's expiration effect goes against your goal of killing a claimed target before dark claim expires, and in PVP assumes that combat encounters are going to last longer than a minute.

Access to Black Blade of Disaster on a CD is great.

Hellstrike can be a 2 round stun. Slow is good. Stun is better. Stun flatfoots. Stun means no actions at all, not even running away. It is also targetting will, which I see as the better saving throw to target, as it is the most likely to not be that high especially on other martials. It will suck against clerics, and you can breach wizards. But all in all, if you're fighting a caster, you're usually winning if you're in melee and attacking them anyway.

Abyssal Lance is a daze. The teleport effect of Cursed Razor is probably better if someone is trying to run away from you, especially because the daze might only last 1 round, and dazed targets can still walk away. The teleport also can't just be ignored with a spell, while all of Dark Seraph's abilities are blocked by mind blank.

Apocalyptic cry I see mostly as a PVE tool that can make space. If all of these take actions to use, it is probably the weakest invocation out of the 3.

As for suggestions for improvement.

I'd raise the hitdice of the class. I don't understand why it should be a d8 hitdice class even with access to free epic toughness, especially with how competitive the class feat slots are when it is primarily a martial class like paladin and ranger.

I'd suggest revising hex weapon feats as because of the above I also don't see people taking them. If you're taking one, you're likely taking both, and I don't see it being that worth.

I'd consider maybe giving some more pre-epic class feat slots, if not just 1 more. 3 Feels really restrictive, as I see most builds taking the same 2 every time (I might be wrong).

Revise the effects of Cursed Razor's atrocities. Dark Seraph locks people down better if that was the intention. the - dex on the entangle isn't that amazing if the targets were already low dex. The people you'd want to lower the dex of are likely going to pass the reflex save. Both are equally affected by immunity to the effect they want to trigger. Dark Seraph hates mind blank, Cursed Razor hates Freedom of Movement. If this is meant to be the dedicated curse class, maybe make the atrocities actually interact with curses as a method of application if we're sticking with it being tied to a DC. Especially because Bestow Curse, even on a 100% refund, likely won't be used in PVE in favor of just killing things.


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MissEvelyn
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:32 am

Algol wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:51 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:31 pm

My only concern is the synergy with Paladin, since Paladin is a Lawful Good -only class.

Hexblade is awaiting an update, its features are enhanced and packaged under a revised class name: Harbinger. The updated class has strong roots in Hexes and Curses, and provides the ability to select one of 3 paths with different themes:

  • Crimson Count(ess), who brings blood arcana theme,

  • Cursed Razor, who specializes in curses,

  • Dark Seraph, who brings the most direct force.

None of this sounds like it should be available to characters of good alignment. So my question, is the synergy intentionally made for fallen paladins?

The paladin gets bonuses against detecting curse from a harbinger.

That makes way more sense than when I read it 😅 Thanks for clarifying. Looking good so far ☺️


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Amnesy » Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:29 am

kinginyellow wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:58 pm

Greater weapon hex is bad because you need improved weapon hex to get it

Bleak Prophecy is entropy vulnerability. That's good. Bleak Prophecy's expiration effect goes against your goal of killing a claimed target before dark claim expires, and in PVP assumes that combat encounters are going to last longer than a minute.

Quick clarifications:
Improved and Greater weapon hexes can be taken independently, and their effects stack.

Bleak Prophecy damage hits just before the Dark Claim runs out, so it should still trigger a bonus if it kills the claimed creature. If it does not, please report it as a bug.


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Hin_Justice » Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:39 pm

Crown of Malevolence.... Oh boy!

There aren't many evil alignment base classes that had Dark Blessing tied to it, given about the same time Paladin receives their version. So why does this matter?

This is yet another re-tune of a class that is forcing evil characters down the class-purity rabbit hole for a trait that is needed for saves buffing. All the while, the LGs can dip without taking ANY prerequisites for a prestige class. They only have to invest in as little as 3 paladin levels to get what they need for other types of builds that use Divine Might/Shield.

You see the problem here, right? Harbinger - a base class with BG and Paladin qualities, is forced to pick paths to get some of this for free, while staying near-pure to obtain Crown of Malevolence for Dark Blessing. Meanwhile Paladin remains the easiest Class to dip into for CHA/Divine Might&Shield power building.

This angers me a lot. Because there is no evil class equal in base class and progression to Paladin. So... when does Paladin get it's Dark Blessing moved to level 22, or 26, or 30? Hexblade was the closest evil class to Paladin until this update. Now? It reads like yet again, Paladin/Paladin-dipping is overlooked.

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Algol
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Algol » Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:13 pm

Blackguard gets dark blessing at level 2, both paladin and blackguard get turn undead at level 3. It is equlivent to paladin for dip purposeses, since prerequisites for it in Arelith is just 6 bab


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Hin_Justice » Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:40 pm

Algol wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:13 pm

Blackguard gets dark blessing at level 2, both paladin and blackguard get turn undead at level 3. It is equlivent to paladin for dip purposeses, since prerequisites for it in Arelith is just 6 bab

This is not a base class though. And you have to meet the prerequisites to take it. So no, it's not Paladin's equal. Nor is Liberator or Anarchist. All of these require X amount of AB and other things. Base classes either don't have a requirement, or have alignment requirements. But they can be taken at level 1.

So Paladin is still the min/max CHA-based power build class choice. And non-fighters wanting Dark Blessing or Good's version of it, have a much longer wait for prestige classes with said feat b/c mage classes don't progress in AB as fast as other classes do.

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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:26 pm

Hin_Justice wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:40 pm
Algol wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:13 pm

Blackguard gets dark blessing at level 2, both paladin and blackguard get turn undead at level 3. It is equlivent to paladin for dip purposeses, since prerequisites for it in Arelith is just 6 bab

This is not a base class though. And you have to meet the prerequisites to take it. So no, it's not Paladin's equal. Nor is Liberator or Anarchist. All of these require X amount of AB and other things. Base classes either don't have a requirement, or have alignment requirements. But they can be taken at level 1.

So Paladin is still the min/max CHA-based power build class choice. And non-fighters wanting Dark Blessing or Good's version of it, have a much longer wait for prestige classes with said feat b/c mage classes don't progress in AB as fast as other classes do.

There is no mathematical method by which you cannot get 6 bab pre epic by level 13 and that's assuming only classes with 1/2 ab. If it is a 4 level dip you can always take it pre 20. With how fast it is to get to level 20 let alone 30 the wait is a minor inconvenience at best where most caster builds that take a 3 level dip already takes that 3 level divine dip from 27-29


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Quidix » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:00 pm

Overall - a lot of interesting mechanics, and I'm a fan of making it a non-good class instead.

On "Misfortune's Favor", I'd just consider swapping Defensive Roll for Improved Evasion, if there is a need to change it (which I'm not convinced of).

I like the concept of "Hex of Oath-breaker" a lot - nice to see a proper counter to divine plays.


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Wrips » Sun Dec 10, 2023 3:12 pm

Give Improved Turning somewhere in epics for those with Divine Patronage, it's a big feat for PvE convenience.


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by a poem for the firmament » Wed Dec 13, 2023 8:26 am

I noticed two things while testing different Harbinger builds.

1) Whispers of the Past.

Feat gives +3 soft lore bonus. It does not function like soft lore from gear, and does not help with using scrolls. Is this intentional?

2) Spellbook does not have the spells listed on the class page. Most spells that are listed are not there. Spellbook looks like OG Hexblade spellbook with very limited options. Death Ward, breach, lesser spell mantle, baleful polymorph, redbolt, a ton of stuff in fact is not in. Lesser spell mantle ties to Shield ability that can be selected but is not there, while baleful polymorph has a boon in Razor path.

Edit.

Atrocity Strike and Whirlwind Attack share a cooldown.

  • Use atrocity strike
  • WW cannot be used until CD for the Atrocity is over

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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:13 pm

Nice changes. DC could be a bit lower but overall cool re-design. I really like +6 vampiric feature


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Amnesy » Wed Dec 13, 2023 3:44 pm

a poem for the firmament wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 8:26 am

I noticed two things while testing different Harbinger builds.

1) Whispers of the Past.

Feat gives +3 soft lore bonus. It does not function like soft lore from gear, and does not help with using scrolls. Is this intentional?

2) Spellbook does not have the spells listed on the class page. Most spells that are listed are not there. Spellbook looks like OG Hexblade spellbook with very limited options. Death Ward, breach, lesser spell mantle, baleful polymorph, redbolt, a ton of stuff in fact is not in. Lesser spell mantle ties to Shield ability that can be selected but is not there, while baleful polymorph has a boon in Razor path.

Edit.

Atrocity Strike and Whirlwind Attack share a cooldown.

  • Use atrocity strike
  • WW cannot be used until CD for the Atrocity is over

Whispers of the Past - I will look into this.
Spellbook - Intentional and mentioned in the release notes. Spellbook is shared with Hexblade on live and will be updated on Go Live.

Atrocity Strike and Whirlwind Attack share a cooldown. - by design, see wiki on instant attacks:

Instant Attack Feats (Activated):
Instant attacks share a cooldown timer: Dirty Fighting, Divine Smite, Eldritch Blast, Eviscerate, Elemental Maelstrom, Elemental Strike, Misericorde, Whirlwind Attack, (and on go live Atrocity Strike)
Using instant attacks lower attacks in the following round by 1. This is meant to offset the free attack gained by activating them.


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by miesny_jez » Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:54 am

I noticed something funny today.

The recent update to summons made them auto-guard their summoner.
This also applies to the Black Blade of Disaster spell.

Normally for BBoD it's not such a big deal as it forces concentration checks but for Harbringer Dark Seraph there are no concentration checks on the BBoD.

Which result in a very gimmicky behaviour of the mobs.

When you attack together with the BBoD they attempt to switch to Your character, land a hit, then they are forced to switch to BBoD due to auto guard and then they switch again to You character...

Result is that they land maximum of 1 hit per round as they are constantly switching targets.

Please remove either the auto-guard from the BBoD or remove the bheavior that forces the mobs to switch to Your character when they attack BBoD.

Other then that the proposed class design is really interesting.

I am concerned with how good of an anticaster can Harbringer become with all the available feats, divine saves+antisummon hex+maxed lesser mantle feat + BBod+evasion feat
Means the caster does not have a lot he can actually do against such a hexer while he can just recast mantles while the BBoD eats at the caster. Only counterplay in such is Mords right?


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Amnesy » Thu Dec 14, 2023 9:54 am

miesny_jez wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:54 am

I noticed something funny today.

The recent update to summons made them auto-guard their summoner.
This also applies to the Black Blade of Disaster spell.

Normally for BBoD it's not such a big deal as it forces concentration checks but for Harbringer Dark Seraph there are no concentration checks on the BBoD.

Which result in a very gimmicky behaviour of the mobs.

When you attack together with the BBoD they attempt to switch to Your character, land a hit, then they are forced to switch to BBoD due to auto guard and then they switch again to You character...

Result is that they land maximum of 1 hit per round as they are constantly switching targets.

Please remove either the auto-guard from the BBoD or remove the bheavior that forces the mobs to switch to Your character when they attack BBoD.

Other then that the proposed class design is really interesting.

I am concerned with how good of an anticaster can Harbringer become with all the available feats, divine saves+antisummon hex+maxed lesser mantle feat + BBod+evasion feat
Means the caster does not have a lot he can actually do against such a hexer while he can just recast mantles while the BBoD eats at the caster. Only counterplay in such is Mords right?

I have already asked Kalopsia to exclude BBoD from the auto -guard.
It has the same tendency for confusing AI on normal spell use as well (since concentration can be played around).

Certainly, it will require more play and observation, with the time for both system shock - learning new adversaries and how to react to them.


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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Naghast » Fri Dec 15, 2023 5:46 am

Warning: long-Snuggybear wall of text.

Okay, so
After playing with the class a bit i can safely say that i absolutely love the class's theme, and themes of every single path it gets.

Crimson count being a blood knight with stat drains and innate lifesteals feels really fun to play with

Cursed razor is hands-down my absolutely favorite path out of three, having a pull, curses and ability to slow and stun things feels super glorious

Dark seraph hits like a truck (frankly all paths do) and contests will saves like no one's business (altho bbod losing guard makes it worse as boss killer)

It's very fun to play, and interesting to build too - it's got many good picks for rumors of war. I can think of multitude of ways to make a harbringer. So kudos for that. And the dc's being high, considering that the things that trigger the dc's are essentially 1/fight, is really not a bad thing! Atrocities have a very minor effect on failing the save anyway, and cursed razor, being the only one with multiple SLA's that can potentially cc for long duration, has it randomised, so you only really have to deal with one hard cc to pray off of you if you do fail the save, usually. Speaking of which...

...here come the negatives.

Because as cool and fun the class feels, in terms of power it feels...
Underwhelming?
Weaker than current hexblade, even. Which is not something i expected to write after getting so hyped about it.

Imma start with Dc's
Because while they seem high, they're actually not. Against geared people on pgcc, or even people with just good consumables game, i had these abilities fail much more often than succeed. And they're, like i said, long cooldown. 1/fight essentially.

In this regard, i'd actually take Sincra's option of making atrocities weaker but saveless lmao. Currently they're really good at noobstomping, but a prepared player can deal with them rather easily (sounds familiar, heh)

Rumors of war are good, and some feel like must-picks, but others kinda...
Feel like a trap, really?

Example would be improved and greater weapon curse, which i did picked mostly for 6 vamp regen and 26 sr for free. Compared to other options...

Plus overall, if you look at it, base harbringer's stats are

not great
You end up picking rumors to fill up the gaps but you also end up with a lot other spaces just, empty.

I had to spend two rumors, one epic, on something given by simply dipping blackguard.

And without mortality undone, harbringer is squishy as all hells (480 hp at base con 14), and even with it it's surprisingly not durable

Lack of tumble and inability to dip into it due to losing too much means your AC is gonna be weirdly low. Dark claim giving 2 dodge ac by default could help but in reality it's just gonna feel off, like you have less ac than you actually do. Like, i got 58 (59 with +4 barkskin) ac when testing, but god it felt like i had just 50 or something like that.

And your ab is also fairly underwhelming. Assuming a 14 str mod human, you'd have...
47.
48 if you got epic prowess.

It seems to heavily rely on AC drains, which can't be fully relied on. Your dark claim can be cleared out. Sure, you can chuck a thunderstone to proc your fear, but unless you invested a lot (feats and etc), your dc will probably be around mid 30's on that. Which isn't that great for something with cooldown, again.
And without them, you heavily struggle to land hits at anything.

You're also generally very feat starved, especially if you pick divine patronage.

Overall it just felt like i was struggling to grab things that i had no problems having on old hexblade.

As i had turn undead, cha to saves, both curse weapon upgrades, +4 DC upgrade to make the dc's land and mortality undone to not be murdered when someone sneezes in my general direction-

I literally could not pick any other rumor. So there's certainly a big tradeoff for the things i had.
And once again, felt like just a weaker hexblade.

In return, however, i did dealt a lot of damage. In fact, i hit like a truck, 50+ raw damage per hit, with crits getting upwards to 130 even. So there's that.

The problem is, i could rarely land a hit against anyone with good ac (talking about div builds or dex builds), which made all this damage matter less.

And taunting in someone's face felt like a borderline suicide as i was flatfooting myself right in front of them.

And please for the love of GOD make atrocity invocation actually cast around you.
As it is right now, it's aoe is a god damn lie.

You gotta run up to an opponent, essentially touch range, and use it on them, to trigger the aoe around you. It's clunky and hella unfun to use.

Summary:

The class is very very cool and very very fun to play

It is, unfortunately, erring on the weaker side of power balance: definitely feels more like a noobstomper, with mechanics that fold when faced with someone equipped with necessary consumables.

A few rumor options are just tempting but feel like a trap, a few must-haves feel like they give much too little for their investment (examples: two rumors for essentially a div dip. 2 rumors for essentially vamp regen, 26 sr, and some damage boost. And now you're left with just 1 pre-epic and 1 epic rumor)

Crimson count/ess has really cool theme going around it, and feels good for general pve. Not sure what i'd add there.

Cursed razor feels like the MEMES Path to take, with entangles, pulls and stuff. The only thing i'd add here specifically is let the harbringer pick the curse they inflict with their SLA's. At least their single target one. Relying too much on rng can be annoying.

Dark seraph strikes me as... Honestly the best? It's got a summon, an aoe CC, and other will cc's on their atrocities. Not sure what i'd add there.

And for whole harbringer i'd unironically merge a few rumors into a single one. Perhaps improved and greater weapon curse rumors could become one? Divine patronage and crown of malevolence? Just, something to make the tax, uh... Less.

Plus unironically i'd take Sincra's offer to make atrocities saveless but a tad weaker. The effect is negligible anyway, it'd at least make them land when used.


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miesny_jez
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by miesny_jez » Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:55 pm

So I tried few Harby builds around on my Ogre char who was previously as Hexblade and can give my feedback on building and using extreme case melee-only harbs.

So first of all race: Ogre = no casting, so I cannot give feedback on curses and I will focus just on melee.

In comparison too previous hexblade, harbi is stronger. Is it broken I don't think so. I really like the class design and it's theme now.. it just clicks correctly. Additional power comes mainly from claim interaction with atrocities and more skill pool.

The paths which are great are Count and Serapth. Cursed razor is really meh.. unless you can reach some sensible DC numbers razor is just weak.

Count path is very very good, damage upfront, sustain and heal all in one go. Bleed damage is rarely blocked and Attrocity strike even will do physical DMG on bleed immune creatures ( neglect hex says hi). Count is just great.

Seraph ends up a weaker choice because it's +20% is not really that high if you do 2d4 of entropy on hit. It's dark claim bonus damage at end is luckluster and nonsensical as there will be rarely a thing that will survive a full minute of being smashed in the face. Aka Serapth DMG on end of claim will rarely make any difference. I would suggest reconsider and maybe add a stacking entropy debuff or a way to spread it instead? The only thing for seraph that can put it on par to Count at the moment are stun dazes/ on atrocities but of course you need Ch for that to work. Now you could say Attrocities are also boosted by 20%, yes they are but the problem here is Dark Claim.

Dark Claim generally is good as it generates such a fun interaction with paths abilities but the problem is if you kill something fast you are suddenly out of gas as most of the interaction is based on dark claim. Things on Arelith die very fast these days you will very rarely have an enemy that can stay alive for a whole minute of the dark claim.. and then you are on cooldown.

This is especially touching on Serapth because you want to hit your dark claim target for the bonus damage, stuns etc. Razor is much better as it's more about curses and DC's, Count.. can just Dark claim something else and focus something else while using Attrocity only on the claim target and still benefit for the whole duration. Serapth cannot do that he is designed to hit the dark claim target and he will kill it fast and then wait.. and wait.. and wait until claim is back. This is not fun to be honest, would really be great to have a way to chain claim on Serapth or lower the cooldown.

Now let's to bonus feats.
As I on my ogre was not interested in any CH DC requiring feats I thought that 2x weapon improvement feats will be a great choice.
But it turns out it's not it's simply not enough. With 3 to 5 available bonus feats for Harbringer (21 to 26 level builds) every bonus feat is taken already, there is simply no space for fun new feats. Hallucination, Alcudia and Neglect are staples for direct damage knockdown builds, which leave 1 to 2 available feats only.

Antisummon looks really nice and fun, but direct save feat will save me much more often and dark claim is 1+ minute cooldown. I want it to land on the Caster and hasten the kill then waiting another 1 minute

Breach hex is so great, but.. it's my only epic bonus feat... And I can simply use a breach wand

Anti divine hex looks great too, but divine shield/might users are pretty rare and I get enough AB DMG through Attrocities claim to kill already

Malady looks promising, but there are better choices

Greater weapon hex is okish.. but it's essentially a SR26, which you can cover with a helmet, the DMG increase is very small

Saves/Evasion feat is a great choice probably the best one there

Black diamond is very good considering nearly 25% melees on the server are sneak builds (taken from server census) but there is no space available

Improved Dark Claim is good, but others are simply better, let it spread the claim out then it will be viable choice, the death effect is useless.

Crown, Woe drinker, armaments, patronages(both) are not for my build at all as they require more CH based cases

Morality is too weak to be considered as a viable choice.

So in conclussion bonus feats while looking very interesting I think most of them are slightly on the weak side or are too marginal to be chosen in a situation that we have only 3 to 5 available.

I will not be touching the summon spells because I already highlighted the BBoD issue before and Blood humumculus for Count is only a distraction bonus. Maybe if full 30 harbi count it could be worthwhile but I like my flexibility in builds.

Sorry for the long post


hackymysak
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by hackymysak » Mon Dec 18, 2023 7:53 am

I'm not certain if this has been posted yet or not, but it seems that Dark Claim can be used without breaking stealth which allows for you to breach from stealth.


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Opustus
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Opustus » Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:59 am

Maybe make the new feats' ingame descriptions follow a format consistent with base NWN? I think other Arelith feats have followed it.

https://ibb.co/54R9H7K

into

https://ibb.co/1zySLn2

Also, the Massacre feat feels superfluous. It's a feat that adds Gruesome Technique. Why not just give Gruesome Technique at level 17 and cut the middle man?

Lastly, the icon for Epic Harbinger doesn't follow the theme of other epic class icons, which is just the base class icon with little stars added.

Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

Amnesy
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Amnesy » Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:11 am

I am looking with Kalopsia to release Harbinger by the end of February.
While Patch 1 is on PGCC see full doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hIt ... ue&sd=true
There is a small Patch in the works that will tweak minor things and add Improved Turning to Divine Patronage (in mid-Epic level). Cursed Razor's improvement to its curse spell-like ability is considered in post-go-live.

All feedback is welcome now, especially where the features could be toned down.

Thank you


AstralUniverse
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:54 am

We cant even test any caster focused HB with this spellbook. Hard to give feedback on the main build architype of the class. I can say that 21 hb 4 fighter 5 wm mundane build is alright but that's about it.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Naghast
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Naghast » Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:41 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:54 am

We cant even test any caster focused HB with this spellbook. Hard to give feedback on the main build architype of the class. I can say that 21 hb 4 fighter 5 wm mundane build is alright but that's about it.

didn't that specific build just lose divine synergy? iirc it was moved to harbinger 23 with divine patronage


Quidix
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Quidix » Sat Feb 17, 2024 11:01 pm

I can't seem to select "Herald of the Grave" as a Rumor of War on PGCC - is that bug, or something intentional?


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Waldo52
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:08 am

The people demand familiars at level 5 again for their zainy dip builds.

Fighter is good but harbinger has a walking hand or a frog that licks people or something.

The hexblade wasn't perfect, but this change is random. If it's not broke, don't fix it.


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Whosdis
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Re: HARBINGER FEEDBACK

Post by Whosdis » Sun Feb 18, 2024 4:29 pm

I quite like the Harbinger. It takes the best part about Hexblade and evens it out whilst adding a lot more to the rest of their kit. Health is down but damage and AC are up on my end. The different paths add a LOT of flavor, which was something that was severely lacking in the Hexblade class.

The class allows for different combinations: Some very powerful but locked behind applications (probably a good thing but one 25/5 combination lets Harbinger get epic dodge, albeit costing 3 of their Rumors of War). The switching out of a flat +3 for CL synergies allows different styles of build varieties. Allows for a dex build with high AC and damage and with a simple combination of Silent Hunter with 3 rogue, 8d6 sneak attack die. Really the only thing "weak" is the saves but those can be patched up with some of the Rumors.


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