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Hello,
The primary thread for Harbinger/Hexblade feedback.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&p=330291#p330291
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How is the reworked Hexblade class going to affect Star Pact warlocks? They get current Hex class ability from Hexblade at 2/3 strength, but the announcement didn't mention them at all, so it's unclear if they automatically inherit the reworked class abilities for Harbinger, or will continue to use the old versions.
Ithalan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:30 pmHow is the reworked Hexblade class going to affect Star Pact warlocks? They get current Hex class ability from Hexblade at 2/3 strength, but the announcement didn't mention them at all, so it's unclear if they automatically inherit the reworked class abilities for Harbinger, or will continue to use the old versions.
It is not affecting starlock at all. The original code for Hexblade is not touched. Even if the class is disabled and replaced, the code for the original hexes remains as is.
No impact for Warlock so far.
Looks edgy. Might make one.
I see in the text document a lot of the time the saves to resist being mentioned as "saves vs curses". Does this mean that curses are bypassing spellcraft bonuses to saves?
The reason why I'm asking is I assume when the class was designed it was designed with the consideration of save bloat.
kinginyellow wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:59 pmLooks edgy. Might make one.
I see in the text document a lot of the time the saves to resist being mentioned as "saves vs curses". Does this mean that curses are bypassing spellcraft bonuses to saves?
The reason why I'm asking is I assume when the class was designed it was designed with the consideration of save bloat.
Saving throws vs. curses always include Spellcraft, as I couldn't think of a "mundane" way to bestow a curse.
What is the rationale for the Hit Die to have been reduced from d10 to d8?
Most martial classes are d10 or d12. Hexblade (and now Harbinger) has a spellbook similar to Paladin and Ranger, both of which are d10. Spellswords are d8 and they have a considerably better Spellbook and similar weapon enhancements.
I already have an idea I want to test out on PGCC once this goes live then I'll give feedback on how broken it might be.
But in theory. . .
Blood Count's on-kill effect for their new hex can give up to 11/+6 DR. That will stack with the 9 DR from EDR III. You can help this have even more value by getting the 10 % DI bonus feat. I wonder how self sustaining that would be on a 2-hander. You could legitimately turn every fight into a damage race with soak DR that's that high, and potentially sustain the buff throughout an entire dungeon with the Epic Dark Claim effect.
Please don't nerf it before I get to try it.
DR does not stack like that it takes the highest. So against +5 and below weapons you would have 11 DR, agains +6 weapons you would have the 9 from EDR3.
Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 6:30 pmDR does not stack like that it takes the highest. So against +5 and below weapons you would have 11 DR, agains +6 weapons you would have the 9 from EDR3.
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_reduction
I'm fairly certain it would be 9 DR against +6 weapons, 20 against +5 according to the text on here, and my own lived experience (however bad my memory has gotten).
Trying to understand the Weapon Hex feat line, does it provide a damage increase to the weapon damage dice itself? So a shortsword becomes a d8 weapon rather than a d6. Or does it improve the damage dice provided from the hex itself, the 1d6/2d4 damage that is effectively an essence?
A summary with some numbers I have looked into by comparing with existing the Hexblade class.
HP
-60 HP from Hit Die reduction (-20 if Mortality Undone is taken)
AB
-1 AB from Curse Weapon (from +6 to +5)
+2 AB from Hex of Hallucination
-2 from default Hex (old Hex gave -5 and Hex of Rust gives -3)
-1 when all considered
Physical DI
Down to 10% from 18%
Physical Vulnerability
Up to 20% from 15%
AC
+2 from Hex of Rust (none previously)
-2 Hex of Hallucination bonus down to -3 from -5
AC neutral from what I can see.
Atrocities
Atrocities will end with around 31-33 DC (+2 for Whispers + 4 for Invocations) with an additional +4 from Woe Drinker, which bumps Invocations up to 41 DC and Strikes to 37. In this day and age, the side effects will only fail on a natural 1 as is the issue with other spells relying on DC. Immunities also apply. With that said they do provide some utility in ranged effects that the Hexblade did not have before.
Spell List
Definitely better, the addition of Grease, Cloudkill and Breach are the best additions. Death Armour, Lesser Mind Blank and Lesser Spell Mantle are also nice but likely not worth the cast as they will be immediately be breached in PvP, better saving those slots for Hastes and the offensive breaches and cloudkills.
The Paths
These are really hard for me to evaluate, they all look fine with no major contender, just doing different thematic things. Black Blade of Disaster without concentrations checks has potential to be really good.
Some of the on-kill bonus are weird. In PvP they don't fit a role as you will not be killing people left and right. It incentivises me to summon a rat, Dark Claim and kill it for the bonus and then wait for Dark Claim to come out of cooldown so I can start whacking with the bonus.
Hex and Curse Feats
I generally like these, most of the old ones remain and with some new ones giving different possibilities.
Hex of the Hex-breaker Hex of the Oathbreaker and Hex of Arcane Hunger are all really good.
Greater Weapon Hex, Improved Weapon Hex and Improved Dark Claim to not convince me. The Weapon Hex feats would stack up to 2d8 Elemental damage, 5/- being blocked by defensive essences. Massive Criticals and SR are nice but likely not worth the feats.
Improved Dark Claim is not amazing, the issue with Dark Claim's cooldown is not the d4 part but rather the 1 turn. If it cut it down to 30 seconds as the current Hex is it might be worth it.
Mortality Undone reducing DI from 18% to 10% seems unnecessary, Hexblades always needed that to be competitive and not die as easily in both PvP and PvE. Even the EDR build still died quick enough to your average weaponmaster.
Are the new tools worth the loss of HP, AB and DI? I am not sure.
EDR will not stack with extant Damage Reduction, it will takethe highest. You can think of EDR as 9/+21 DR, which will not stack with, say,the 10/+5 of Stoneskin. You'll either get the 10, or the , but you'll never get 19. This is why Stoneskin actually does nothing for a DwD with EDR, because they effective have like 16/+21 DR.
It WILL stack with Damage Resistance, which is a different property.
TimeAdept wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 6:46 pmEDR will not stack with extant Damage Reduction, it will takethe highest. You can think of EDR as 9/+21 DR, which will not stack with, say,the 10/+5 of Stoneskin. You'll either get the 10, or the , but you'll never get 19. This is why Stoneskin actually does nothing for a DwD with EDR, because they effective have like 16/+21 DR.
It WILL stack with Damage Resistance, which is a different property.
Why you gotta kill my dreams like that man 
I’ll post analysis when I stop laughing, cackling, and wheezing as I read the class release thesis.
I'm loving most of the changes but being denied a familiar until level 7 really bothers me. I'll explain.
My own character has five hexblade levels. I deliberately chose hexblade for the flavor and because it's the only class that grants access to Discipline, full BaB for a fourth attack with a familiar. This was a suboptimal choice compared to say, fighter or even ranger. The familiar has no real utility outside of being a social prop and scouting to its death. Having a familiar in the first few levels allowed me to build exactly the kind of character I wanted with a noticeable hit to efficiency in combat which was fine because we're on a role playing server anyway.
If this change goes through I'll have to either neuter my character sheet completely with seven levels of hexblade or delete the character because I have to chose between maintaining his flavor and maintaining a viable character. This will be a big problem for me and maybe a grand total of one or two other people on the server (lol).
There have been a lot of complaints in the last couple years about sweeping changes causing a constant cycle of character rolling. A lot of times these sweeping changes occur for solid balance reasons: I'm looking at those players who have historically tried to monk their way out of playing the same game as everyone else. But when those changes set out to fix a problem that never existed and damage current characters it can be extremely demoralizing.
TL;dr: Moving familiar access from level 4 to level 7 puts arbitrary constraints on characters who want to take a few levels in a melee class and get a familiar. If there's a problem that this change was intended to solve, I'm not aware what it was.
I also have concerns regarding hex weapon. The old curse weapon was extremely buggy, and had some problems:
-Curse weapon seemed to override any other bonuses on weapons. If you had, for example, a plus two weapon and a curse weapon value of plus one, your attack value would actually decrease instead of maintaining the higher plus two.
-Curse weapon would disappear when you un-equipped a weapon. The use of the ability would be lost. This meant that taking out a bow to shoot a single shot or putting away your weapons in town could ruin your day.
Assuming these old bugs are no longer present, I think hex weapon looks brilliant.
As for the positives:
-I actually like how charisma to saves no longer comes standard. I also like that you can still build for it if you want to. This simultaneously helps differentiate us from blackguards and makes blackguard cross-classing more meaningful.
-While I'm biased because as I've stated I play more of a hexblade dip character, I really like how the hexblade scales now. Some of the hex weapon abilities (assuming they aren't as buggy as the current curse weapon ability) will be useful even with a several level investment in the class. Accursed will is good weather you have 4 hexblade levels and a charisma of 6 or you're fully committed to the class. I think we're going to see more people substituting a few levels of fighter or blackguard for a few levels of hexblade, which is good for the sake of build and character diversity.
-All the paths look fun and effective.
Hells. That's a lot to unpack. Looks awesome from initial read. Will test more in depth soon. The introduction paragraph basically say "yo I'm an edgy mage. I got my powers from.... somewhere... and now I'm an edgy mage. fear me".
One question tho.
Misfortune’s Favor
+4 to universal saves. Receives Evasion, Defensive Roll. !! Universal saves bonus is not applied if the PC has Dark Blessing or a similar effect (CHA to SAVES) like Crown of Malevolence.
I mean... is it not supposed to be Improved Evasion for Epic dodge angle? why Defensive roll and just Evasion otherwise... a typo perhaps, or is it not meant as an Epic Dodge angle at all?
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:43 pmHells. That's a lot to unpack. Looks awesome from initial read. Will test more in depth soon. The introduction paragraph basically say "yo I'm an edgy mage. I got my powers from.... somewhere... and now I'm an edgy mage. fear me".
One question tho.
Misfortune’s Favor
+4 to universal saves. Receives Evasion, Defensive Roll. !! Universal saves bonus is not applied if the PC has Dark Blessing or a similar effect (CHA to SAVES) like Crown of Malevolence.I mean... is it not supposed to be Improved Evasion for Epic dodge angle? why Defensive roll and just Evasion otherwise... a typo perhaps, or is it not meant as an Epic Dodge angle at all?
It is plain Evasion and Defensive Roll. It was not meant to be a gateway to Epic Dodge.
might as well replace defensive roll with something else because it is pretty useless except as a requirement for epic dodge. The rest of the class looks pretty good. I havent done any deep math yet but nothing really strikes me as overpowered so far. One thing that slightly concerns me is the potential damage on that ability that scales with the target's missing health. doing an extra 40 damage on hit vs someone with 50% hp for example seems.... pretty good.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Upon first glance and attempts to begin building and checking out how the pieces move and interact, my immediate thought was:
"Where is the (+x against Dispels) its counterparts [Ranger, Paladin] both have, at 21st?"
This small feature is build-enabling for many, and other classes have this to increase build diversity, and enable it to not suffer for the smallest of dips. Perhaps this feature could, too, be added in here?
Maybe for Misfortune's Favour... instead of Defensive Roll... Luck of Heroes might be a good choice? Overall, it would then give either a +5 to Uni Saves, or a +1 and Evasion, if they already have CHA to saves?
Fix to PC deletion on PGCC and too open feat selection are in the works.
My only concern is the synergy with Paladin, since Paladin is a Lawful Good -only class.
Hexblade is awaiting an update, its features are enhanced and packaged under a revised class name: Harbinger. The updated class has strong roots in Hexes and Curses, and provides the ability to select one of 3 paths with different themes:
Crimson Count(ess), who brings blood arcana theme,
Cursed Razor, who specializes in curses,
Dark Seraph, who brings the most direct force.
None of this sounds like it should be available to characters of good alignment. So my question, is the synergy intentionally made for fallen paladins?
MissEvelyn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:31 pmMy only concern is the synergy with Paladin, since Paladin is a Lawful Good -only class.
Hexblade is awaiting an update, its features are enhanced and packaged under a revised class name: Harbinger. The updated class has strong roots in Hexes and Curses, and provides the ability to select one of 3 paths with different themes:
Crimson Count(ess), who brings blood arcana theme,
Cursed Razor, who specializes in curses,
Dark Seraph, who brings the most direct force.
None of this sounds like it should be available to characters of good alignment. So my question, is the synergy intentionally made for fallen paladins?
As per the harbinger details document:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ghu ... ue&sd=true
It's any non-good alignment
MissEvelyn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:31 pmMy only concern is the synergy with Paladin, since Paladin is a Lawful Good -only class.
Hexblade is awaiting an update, its features are enhanced and packaged under a revised class name: Harbinger. The updated class has strong roots in Hexes and Curses, and provides the ability to select one of 3 paths with different themes:
Crimson Count(ess), who brings blood arcana theme,
Cursed Razor, who specializes in curses,
Dark Seraph, who brings the most direct force.
None of this sounds like it should be available to characters of good alignment. So my question, is the synergy intentionally made for fallen paladins?
The paladin gets bonuses against detecting curse from a harbinger.
