CURSES FEEDBACK

[Amnesy]

Hello,

The primary feedback thread for curses.
Please always mention the spell/curse name when providing feedback.

[Skincaster]

Considering that Hags employ a plethora of Curses on their Victims, are Green Hags also getting Bonuses ? They haven't been listed in the Announcement.

[Amnesy]

Considering that Hags employ a plethora of Curses on their Victims, are Green Hags also getting Bonuses ? They haven't been listed in the Announcement.

It has been missed, something I will add.

[Choofed]

So first things first, going through the interactions between curses, greater curses, what comes from curse storm and so on adds a lot of nuance to curse selection and I like that. Knowing you can pick your standard curses (and some greaters), but can't pick and choose your effects from curse storm matters because it changes the outcomes you seek from recasting the spell.

I highly recommend everyone engaging with this thread thoroughly studies the difference between the spells and how they will function before the engage with the thread.

I'm going to look at this from a strictly PVP perspective, because it's where it interests me. You've already postulated PVP vs PVE effects in the document, that's dandy.

Some of the curse effects are very punishing, quite selectable, and may require immunities. In other instances I believe that the remove curse function will need to be more consistent, as it's lack of available counterplay against some greater curses may overtly hurt the viability of certain builds.

One curse that immediately worries me is Curse of Narfell, a will save heal inversion spell. By it being selectable, assumedly, from the Bestow Curse greater options it's become a pretty much must pick against people with poor will saves, like rogues and the likes. This I believe is too powerful against them, as removing it is a CL check due to the greater curse effect is going to be extremely painful. I have similar concerns with the Curse Of Sunstar.

What I would recommend here is that Remove Curse always removes curses after 2 rounds regardless of if they passed the CL check (And also provides curse immunity for those 2 rounds). If you are immediately making people dump action economy to fix, you're on a winner already, and if their healing is inverted it's already putting them in a sudden extreme pressure scenario.

[Naghast]

The only thing that really saddens me here is moving curses from transmutation to necromancy.

Other than that, it turns a useless spell into a useful one.

[Amnesy]

One curse that immediately worries me is Curse of Narfell, a will save heal inversion spell. By it being selectable, assumedly, from the Bestow Curse greater options it's become a pretty much must pick against people with poor will saves, like rogues and the likes. This I believe is too powerful against them, as removing it is a CL check due to the greater curse effect is going to be extremely painful. I have similar concerns with the Curse Of Sunstar.

Curse of Narfell can be migrated onto the normal curse category as a balancing point for PvP as well.

[Svrtr]

One curse that immediately worries me is Curse of Narfell, a will save heal inversion spell. By it being selectable, assumedly, from the Bestow Curse greater options it's become a pretty much must pick against people with poor will saves, like rogues and the likes. This I believe is too powerful against them, as removing it is a CL check due to the greater curse effect is going to be extremely painful. I have similar concerns with the Curse Of Sunstar.

Curse of Narfell can be migrated onto the normal curse category as a balancing point for PvP as well.

Apologies if it does as I didn't get to check last night but does it have an obvious vfx?

I think that the combination of the ability of an ally to heal you thinking they are helping combined with heals like mass heal, the health to damage should either

1) have an extremely obvious vfx
2) limit the damage from healing harshly
3) just be removed and make it negate healing

Or some combination. The fact that an ally can murder you thinking they are helping alone is of concern

[Skincaster]

Quick Note: Druids do not have the Normal "Bestow Curse" Spell available to them, only the 8th Level "Bestow Curse, Greater". Guess this is a Bug ?

[Naghast]

Actually
Idea that was given to me

Split curses into curses of body (following transmutation spell focus for dc and empowerment) and curses of spirit (following necromancy spell focus for dc and empowerment)

Necromancy is already bloated as-is - it can literally contest every single saving throw, has an igms counterpart (albeit worse, but with lifesteal), etc.
And transmutation is kinda sad in terms of non-buffs.

Let them have some stuff!

(Also really hoping black blood is a curse of body bc i find the idea of werewolfi'fying someone absolutely amusing)

[Android Sufferer]

Some of the curse effects are very punishing, quite selectable, and may require immunities. In other instances I believe that the remove curse function will need to be more consistent, as it's lack of available counterplay against some greater curses may overtly hurt the viability of certain builds.

One curse that immediately worries me is Curse of Narfell, a will save heal inversion spell. By it being selectable, assumedly, from the Bestow Curse greater options it's become a pretty much must pick against people with poor will saves, like rogues and the likes. This I believe is too powerful against them, as removing it is a CL check due to the greater curse effect is going to be extremely painful. I have similar concerns with the Curse Of Sunstar.

What I would recommend here is that Remove Curse always removes curses after 2 rounds regardless of if they passed the CL check (And also provides curse immunity for those 2 rounds). If you are immediately making people dump action economy to fix, you're on a winner already, and if their healing is inverted it's already putting them in a sudden extreme pressure scenario.

+1

My major concerns are:

Moving significant debuffs away from the restoration norm. It's another button for the quick bar and another stack of scrolls, bloat for the sake of it.

The lack of transparency and visual clarity on debilitating debuffs (this is an assumption, but a strong one considering detect curse is in)

Save vs die without immunity (healing inversion, is essentially that for anyone without innate remove curse)

The huge griefing potential (can't find a good CL remove curse caster? Enjoy that)

Ideas:

Having restore clear curses, if you have no other debuffs on you. Greater restore clear everything.

Pray restoring them as normal (I'm not sure if this is already a thing, but I'm assuming not)

Remove curse remove lesser curses immediately (even if you had a regular debuff) and greater curses after x rounds dependant on a CL check.

NEP and UEF providing blanket immunity to curses. Remove individual anti curse measures (mind/death immune etc). This would streamline and differentiate the curse gameplay on both sides.

[Skincaster]

Some of the curse effects are very punishing, quite selectable, and may require immunities. In other instances I believe that the remove curse function will need to be more consistent, as it's lack of available counterplay against some greater curses may overtly hurt the viability of certain builds.

One curse that immediately worries me is Curse of Narfell, a will save heal inversion spell. By it being selectable, assumedly, from the Bestow Curse greater options it's become a pretty much must pick against people with poor will saves, like rogues and the likes. This I believe is too powerful against them, as removing it is a CL check due to the greater curse effect is going to be extremely painful. I have similar concerns with the Curse Of Sunstar.

What I would recommend here is that Remove Curse always removes curses after 2 rounds regardless of if they passed the CL check (And also provides curse immunity for those 2 rounds). If you are immediately making people dump action economy to fix, you're on a winner already, and if their healing is inverted it's already putting them in a sudden extreme pressure scenario.

+1

My major concerns are:

Moving significant debuffs away from the restoration norm. It's another button for the quick bar and another stack of scrolls, bloat for the sake of it.

The lack of transparency and visual clarity on debilitating debuffs (this is an assumption, but a strong one considering detect curse is in)

Save vs die without immunity (healing inversion, is essentially that for anyone without innate remove curse)

The huge griefing potential (can't find a good CL remove curse caster? Enjoy that)

Ideas:

Having restore clear curses, if you have no other debuffs on you. Greater restore clear everything.

Pray restoring them as normal (I'm not sure if this is already a thing, but I'm assuming not)

Remove curse remove lesser curses immediately (even if you had a regular debuff) and greater curses after x rounds dependant on a CL check.

NEP and UEF providing blanket immunity to curses. Remove individual anti curse measures (mind/death immune etc). This would streamline and differentiate the curse gameplay on both sides.

Moving away from the Resto Norm is good, it's already way too much of an easy "Fix all" Button. Only Greater Curses aren't affected by Resto and Harbinger can only apply those at Random, not selectively. It's an 8th Level for Casters with DC so looking at 10% success at best.
Think we can all agree that Heal Inversion is way too strong (even at 5% Chance) so there'll likely be a change there but other than that I see no reason why one needs yet another Debuff covered by 24/7 Blanket Immunity.
Not knowing what exactly you are Cursed with is the whole Point of Detect Curse and would also make no sense IC to know without such means. Diseases/Poisons don't give such Information either without Detect Poison for example.
Let's also not just immediately jump to Griefing assumptions and assume the worst of people, if it happens that's what reports are for and PvP Rules need to be respected aswell.

Otherwise the new Curses remain yet another useless DC Spell that in the rare Instances of it actually hitting is removed within 3 seconds.
Not a big Fan of the whole "Oh you got affected by this High Level Magic? Just drink this 200GP Cure All Potion and you are fine." in general, especially since the Save Bloat on the Server is so damn insane. (In case it wasn't obvious)

[Android Sufferer]

Moving away from the Resto Norm is good, it's already way too much of an easy "Fix all" Button. Only Greater Curses aren't affected by Resto and Harbinger can only apply those at Random, not selectively. It's an 8th Level for Casters with DC so looking at 10% success at best.
Think we can all agree that Heal Inversion is way too strong (even at 5% Chance) so there'll likely be a change there but other than that I see no reason why one needs yet another Debuff covered by 24/7 Blanket Immunity.
Not knowing what exactly you are Cursed with is the whole Point of Detect Curse and would also make no sense IC to know without such means. Diseases/Poisons don't give such Information either without Detect Poison for example.
Let's also not just immediately jump to Griefing assumptions and assume the worst of people, if it happens that's what reports are for and PvP Rules need to be respected aswell.

Otherwise the new Curses remain yet another useless DC Spell that in the rare Instances of it actually hitting is removed within 3 seconds.
Not a big Fan of the whole "Oh you got affected by this High Level Magic? Just drink this 200GP Cure All Potion and you are fine." in general, especially since the Save Bloat on the Server is so damn insane. (In case it wasn't obvious)

My comments were on the curses, not Harbringer.

How are you arriving at 10% best? It would surely vary considerably between builds? I don’t believe the average will save is 36 either.

Everything should have counterplay, and done right it has a cost. Drinking a potion comes at a gold cost, and an action cost. Having something which does not have those, is bad, as people on the other side of it don't have fun and they're just as important as you.

I dont really understand the last part. Are you also not a fan of "You just got bonked 5 by this guy with a club, who is literally stronger than a dragon but didn't die"? Or really absolutely anything that exists in dnd? You have to roll with the game part.

[Skincaster]

Moving away from the Resto Norm is good, it's already way too much of an easy "Fix all" Button. Only Greater Curses aren't affected by Resto and Harbinger can only apply those at Random, not selectively. It's an 8th Level for Casters with DC so looking at 10% success at best.
Think we can all agree that Heal Inversion is way too strong (even at 5% Chance) so there'll likely be a change there but other than that I see no reason why one needs yet another Debuff covered by 24/7 Blanket Immunity.
Not knowing what exactly you are Cursed with is the whole Point of Detect Curse and would also make no sense IC to know without such means. Diseases/Poisons don't give such Information either without Detect Poison for example.
Let's also not just immediately jump to Griefing assumptions and assume the worst of people, if it happens that's what reports are for and PvP Rules need to be respected aswell.

Otherwise the new Curses remain yet another useless DC Spell that in the rare Instances of it actually hitting is removed within 3 seconds.
Not a big Fan of the whole "Oh you got affected by this High Level Magic? Just drink this 200GP Cure All Potion and you are fine." in general, especially since the Save Bloat on the Server is so damn insane. (In case it wasn't obvious)

My comments were on the curses, not Harbringer.

How are you arriving at 10% best? It would surely vary considerably between builds? I don’t believe the average will save is 36 either.

Everything should have counterplay, and done right it has a cost. Drinking a potion comes at a gold cost, and an action cost. Having something which does not have those, is bad, as people on the other side of it don't have fun and they're just as important as you.

I dont really understand the last part. Are you also not a fan of "You just got bonked 5 by this guy with a club, who is literally stronger than a dragon but didn't die"? Or really absolutely anything that exists in dnd? You have to roll with the game part.

I am aware that you are talking about Curses, I simply mentioned Harbinger to point out that they cannot be selective about it because it's a full on Meele Class that can get high DCs for their Curses.

10 + 8 + 6 + 14 = 38 DC. Lets assume the worst Will Save I have seen so far in PvP, which was 34 (without Spells that boost Saves). That leaves us with 20% (Best case scenario, this happened once). A Value that isn't really hard to reach. This is based on my own experience in PvP mind you.

Where did I say there shouldn't be Counterplay ? There is already Counterplay there in the Form of Remove Curse, Pray and Resto (with the exception of Greater Curses on that one) aswell as already existing Immunities covering a good chunk of the Curses. Why add yet another Blanket Immunity Effect to the Mix ? So it costs 2 Breaches to finally get to attempt hitting it ? Where's the fun there.

Completely missing the Point there at the end but also giving an example of something with little Counterplay that's no fun for the other Player. My point is that the Counterplay should involve more than just "Press 1 Button if all else fails" that is also the Counterplay to everything else that manages to affect you.
If Resto affects Greater Curses, even with a few Rounds of delay, then why even have the whole Curse 'Rework' at all.

[Android Sufferer]

A Value that isn't really hard to reach. This is based on my own experience in PvP mind you.

Where did I say there shouldn't be Counterplay ? There is already Counterplay there in the Form of Remove Curse, Pray and Resto (with the exception of Greater Curses on that one) aswell as already existing Immunities covering a good chunk of the Curses. Why add yet another Blanket Immunity Effect to the Mix ? So it costs 2 Breaches to finally get to attempt hitting it ? Where's the fun there.

Completely missing the Point there at the end but also giving an example of something with little Counterplay that's no fun for the other Player. My point is that the Counterplay should involve more than just "Press 1 Button if all else fails" that is also the Counterplay to everything else that manages to affect you.
If Resto affects Greater Curses, even with a few Rounds of delay, then why even have the whole Curse 'Rework' at all.

Anecdotal evidence isn't really useful when you can calculate exact save spreads. Many classes suffer with saves even with maxed gear, and many people do not have maxed gear.

I want to narrow the debate here to greater curses, I thought that was clear. While lesser curses have counterplay in the form of Remove curse, greater does not unless you can innately cast it. Something you cannot immunise against, or remove is not fun for the other party.

Having NEP/UEM a blanket immunity for curses would make a few of them stronger, but simplify the mechanic. You can't breach CLA or DW for example, so curses with mind/death immunities would be better. Note the suggestion was not an additional immunity effect, but an instead of.

I'm not really sure what to say to the idea that someone only suffering a few Rounds of a greater curse, on top of an action cost for removal, makes them worthless.

Anyway, to sum up the major issue.

Currently the 'counterplay' for some curses is "don't fail your save" / "innately cast remove curse". I don't think that's good.

[Skincaster]

A Value that isn't really hard to reach. This is based on my own experience in PvP mind you.

Where did I say there shouldn't be Counterplay ? There is already Counterplay there in the Form of Remove Curse, Pray and Resto (with the exception of Greater Curses on that one) aswell as already existing Immunities covering a good chunk of the Curses. Why add yet another Blanket Immunity Effect to the Mix ? So it costs 2 Breaches to finally get to attempt hitting it ? Where's the fun there.

Completely missing the Point there at the end but also giving an example of something with little Counterplay that's no fun for the other Player. My point is that the Counterplay should involve more than just "Press 1 Button if all else fails" that is also the Counterplay to everything else that manages to affect you.
If Resto affects Greater Curses, even with a few Rounds of delay, then why even have the whole Curse 'Rework' at all.

Anecdotal evidence isn't really useful when you can calculate exact save spreads. Many classes suffer with saves even with maxed gear, and many people do not have maxed gear.

I want to narrow the debate here to greater curses, I thought that was clear. While lesser curses have counterplay in the form of Remove curse, greater does not unless you can innately cast it. Something you cannot immunise against, or remove is not fun for the other party.

Having NEP/UEM a blanket immunity for curses would make a few of them stronger, but simplify the mechanic. You can't breach CLA or DW for example, so curses with mind/death immunities would be better. Note the suggestion was not an additional immunity effect, but an instead of.

I'm not really sure what to say to the idea that someone only suffering a few Rounds of a greater curse, on top of an action cost for removal, makes them worthless.

Anyway, to sum up the major issue.

Currently the 'counterplay' for some curses is "don't fail your save" / "innately cast remove curse". I don't think that's good.

[Edited] Misread the Spreadsheet.

Read the Effects, they aren't ment to only last a few Rounds. They are Effects that do nothing over that short amount of Time and so yes, only having them last for a few Rounds DOES make these useless. (The obvious exception to that statement here being the Heal Curse)

Don't see the problem with not having an immediate Cure for non intrusive Debuffs that don't affect Combat Ability at all.

[Android Sufferer]

Sun sensitivity and forced lycanthropy are pretty relevant.

It wouldn't matter if there were 100, and 99 of them did absolutely nothing though. The 1 that does is still a problem.

That in mind, I'd refer to the Griefing point. If the intention of curses is to penalise people for an extended period outside of an encounter, is that something that should even exist as a tool for player characters?

[Fenran]

I personally think the expanded list of curses, effects, and means to RP around them are great in concept! While I'm sure a few tweaks might happen between now and a full launch, I'm looking forward to the new stories this can bring around.

I actually would enjoy stories or RP of being cursed and having to find someone capable of identifying/breaking them. I think that makes for a pretty neat story angle.

[Skincaster]

Maybe instead of outright purging Greater Curses, instead have Restoration suppress ongoing Effects for like 4 Minutes ? Similar to how Slow supresses the Effect of Haste when cast on top of it and vice versa.

This would mean you have Counterplay against it in PvP but also wouldn't make the whole permanence Mechanic of the Curse redundant.

Thoughts?

[Fava Beans]

With extensive use of evil blight, the random effect can be infuriating, since the effects cannot be reapplied, i have run into several instances where im dropping several evil blights that just do absolutely nothing, as the same effect triggers over and over and over, resulting in wasted spells, could a radial be added to evil blight to specifically choose one effect over the other?

otherwise, the spell is great, i love the various effects, it would jsut be nice to switch to the debuff i need for the situation

[Choofed]

Amnesy, with some time to play with the new curses.

Can we get a ritual to remove curses so we don't have to spam remove curse and rest 20 times?

[Amnesy]

Amnesy, with some time to play with the new curses.

Can we get a ritual to remove curses so we don't have to spam remove curse and rest 20 times?

I haven't played with rituals, but will look into this.

[serono]

As my character has spellcraft and the spell was identified but my character isnt meant to know the name and effects?
Its confusing!

[D4wN]

I've noticed a few bugs so far.

One is that the curses don't seem to transfer across servers. Using the curse of Sunstar for example is supposed to give someone debuffs I assume similar to Drow during day time. When the curse is cast on UD server, it doesn't apply when transitioning to another server.

Equally the curse of Ufrestra also doesn't transition. So I assume the same goes for the other curses.

[Goldforge]

Hey, so I have some feedback regarding the curses. I put my mechanical suggestions/feedback in bold.

I think the change of spell school from transmutation to necromancy for the curse spells is good, but perhaps we could keep them as dual-spell school spells that use the higher DC of whatever spell focus you have? Transmutation is already suffering for a lack of interesting tools, and Necromancy has been getting tons. The biggest issue with this is if the Transmutation spell school flag causes the spells to suffer the -6 DC associated with being a shadow weave user, which would make these spells suddenly useless to a large population of casters most likely to use this kind of magic, so they might also need to be flagged as shadow spells to prevent this? Perhaps individual curses could have individually different spell schools. Necromancy for undeath/disease related ones. Enchantment for the sleep/mind control ones. Transmutation for physical debuff/Curse of Isolation type curses.

Also, while Night Hag Pacts make sense to have bonuses to certain sleep-related curses, I wonder if this flavor feature could be extended to other curses for other pacts, to make the spell a more interesting choice for them and to open up spell-combos. An example of this is Curse of Obedience for a Star Pact warlock, as it fits the flavor of that Pact as they have access to the spell Command in their list. Some of the undead related curses would fit the Undying Pact, too.

Also, despite the spell school change to necromancy, Evil Blight is still a transmutation spell despite being effectively an AoE version of the lesser bestow curse, so it's DC is heavily, heavily nerfed for anyone that wants to spec into curses. I still think enabling both schools to benefit curses is the best and most sensible solution, and Evil Blight ought to benefit from the Necromancy spell school if all the other curses do. I also really, really wish the curses on Evil Blight were selectable from the radial menu, too.

While the curse information spreadsheet lists the effects, there is currently nothing published about how to achieve the 'empowered' effects of certain curses that are listed in that column.

I would like to see this radial menu treatment extended to other debuff spells. Currently Contagion is in a really, really bad spot. It doesn't take any DC from the caster stat, or from spell focus, and only rolls a disease save vs whatever the standard NWN DC for the random disease it picks is. At level 30, with GSF: Necro and 40 charisma, my warlock gets... DC 16 and 12 contagions. Magical poisons could also probably benefit from this same treatment.

Lastly, I think the system is super interesting and cool. As someone who primarily plays a character who has always been entirely built around the idea of debuffing (Pumpernickel) rather than direct damage it is a super fun and flavorful way to do this and none of the effects are particularly too crazy given the high average saves on the server in both PvP and epic dungeons, and the buffs that grant immunity to many of the effects.

[Amnesy]

I've noticed a few bugs so far.

One is that the curses don't seem to transfer across servers. Using the curse of Sunstar for example is supposed to give someone debuffs I assume similar to Drow during day time. When the curse is cast on UD server, it doesn't apply when transitioning to another server.

Equally the curse of Ufrestra also doesn't transition. So I assume the same goes for the other curses.

There was a safety 10-minute block for reapplying curses, just to make sure there was a window to remove them should they cause client crashes. This will be soon removed (probably this week). It should work better afterward.

Hey, so I have some feedback regarding the curses. I put my mechanical suggestions/feedback in bold.

I think the change of spell school from transmutation to necromancy for the curse spells is good, but perhaps we could keep them as dual-spell school spells that use the higher DC of whatever spell focus you have? Transmutation is already suffering for a lack of interesting tools, and Necromancy has been getting tons. The biggest issue with this is if the Transmutation spell school flag causes the spells to suffer the -6 DC associated with being a shadow weave user, which would make these spells suddenly useless to a large population of casters most likely to use this kind of magic, so they might also need to be flagged as shadow spells to prevent this? Perhaps individual curses could have individually different spell schools. Necromancy for undeath/disease related ones. Enchantment for the sleep/mind control ones. Transmutation for physical debuff/Curse of Isolation type curses.

Also, while Night Hag Pacts make sense to have bonuses to certain sleep-related curses, I wonder if this flavor feature could be extended to other curses for other pacts, to make the spell a more interesting choice for them and to open up spell-combos. An example of this is Curse of Obedience for a Star Pact warlock, as it fits the flavor of that Pact as they have access to the spell Command in their list. Some of the undead related curses would fit the Undying Pact, too.

Also, despite the spell school change to necromancy, Evil Blight is still a transmutation spell despite being effectively an AoE version of the lesser bestow curse, so it's DC is heavily, heavily nerfed for anyone that wants to spec into curses. I still think enabling both schools to benefit curses is the best and most sensible solution, and Evil Blight ought to benefit from the Necromancy spell school if all the other curses do. I also really, really wish the curses on Evil Blight were selectable from the radial menu, too.

While the curse information spreadsheet lists the effects, there is currently nothing published about how to achieve the 'empowered' effects of certain curses that are listed in that column.

I would like to see this radial menu treatment extended to other debuff spells. Currently Contagion is in a really, really bad spot. It doesn't take any DC from the caster stat, or from spell focus, and only rolls a disease save vs whatever the standard NWN DC for the random disease it picks is. At level 30, with GSF: Necro and 40 charisma, my warlock gets... DC 16 and 12 contagions. Magical poisons could also probably benefit from this same treatment.

Lastly, I think the system is super interesting and cool. As someone who primarily plays a character who has always been entirely built around the idea of debuffing (Pumpernickel) rather than direct damage it is a super fun and flavorful way to do this and none of the effects are particularly too crazy given the high average saves on the server in both PvP and epic dungeons, and the buffs that grant immunity to many of the effects.

The change to necromancy was twofold:

• Standardizing to SRD / D&D 3.5e.
• Having Shadow Shield block all curses (a breachable immunity).

I think the word-doc mentioned it, I'll add that information to the Excel and (hopefully Wiki if it is not there already) Empowered effects trigger if you have ESF or have levels in Harbinger Cursed Razor path.

I plan to adjust Evil Blight to be radial, will review it further once I have the script and SRD / D&D 3.5e Spell Compendium in front of me.

As for the Transmutation portfolio in general, let me think about it, come up with a couple of ideas, and talk with the rest of the team.

Lastly, for interactions with other races, perks, classes, and paths I am happy to review suggestions, you can DM me them, and I will make a short list, chat with the team, and add what is nice.

Thank you,