Removing Outcast and Pirate Tags

[Aradin]

I like the idea of the freedom of writing whatever, I'm sure in theory most of us do. But the customisable ones would require more Dm enforcement/work, for fear people would either go super edgelord, or 'not actually an outcast at all'

I love the idea of giving people freedom, but I think a big list may ultimately be the better option now you say it. Notably, the new character experience for the underdark outcast start should hammer in you're a outcast and have done something vile or are vile a little more. I can totally see people being like "I'm an outcast because my parents didn't approve my marriage."

There's nothing stopping us opening a big submissions thread for character limit provided 'outcast tags' that we occasionally add onto.

Just spitballing, you could have the tag always start with "This character is an outcast. You heard their crimes had something to do with..." And then the player would choose from a list of vague but clearly evil things that they could tailor their personal RP around. Having the list is also a good example-setter for people who might initially want to choose outcast with a "my parents didn't approve of my marriage" outcast character concept (a fine character concept in general, but not for the Arelith-specific definition of "outcast").

A few examples. "This character is an outcast. You heard their crimes had something to do with...

• ...committing a string of murders."

• ...committing treason against their sovereign."

• ...conspiring with dark powers."

As the outcast, you'd just pick the option closest to your concept. It's enough information to have other players get a bead on you from across the room, but not too much information that anything concrete is given away without you choosing to do so.

[Choofed]

A few examples. "This character is an outcast. You heard their crimes had something to do with...

• ...committing a string of murders."

• ...committing treason against their sovereign."

• ...conspiring with dark powers."

Yeah this is the stuff! And we could make loads of them.

[Cybren]

If people took the outcast start for a mechanical advantage and then we had to add the tag because they weren’t properly roleplaying the fictional position of being an outcast maybe the issue was actually that being an outcast conveyed a mechanical advantage

[Ad Astra]

If you don't like the outcast system, don't make outcasts. Simple as.

So, feedback on a flawed system should not be given, right?

My opinion on pirate tags is that they're basically meaningless these days, and being a dread pirate is almost comically unnoteworthy in most of the settlements unless there's a big war going on. If pirate tags meant more, I might complain more, but right now, unless you've gone through the steps to make a name for yourself, most people shrug at dread pirate tattoos outside of like, Cordor, I guess.

I don't play Surface much lately, so I'll have to largely take your word on that, but it also doesn't differ from my understanding of the dread pirate situation. That being said, many dread pirates are known to spies who work for the surface as confidants of Underdarkers. The Dread Pirates who aren't allowed in every settlement are the dread pirates you don't see. Because they're not going to get themselves killed.

-

Quite frankly, being an Outcast is one of the worst player experiences available. If I'm being fully honest, Underdark gameplay is overall pretty unpleasant an experience in the end. I have regretted the choice to make my character an Outcast time and time again. They were originally going to be made Surface side, but I decided to play the concept with a friend and the character did become one of my absolute favorites, but. At the end of the day, Outcast is the death of roleplay.

It has become this weird sort of situation where it feels like no one should see the tag. After-all, there have always been other ways to spot outcasts who are lacking for bluff. And if you really want to know something about who is in Andunor, you should have spies. If you care enough about something, you should do something.

How the system works now is quite frankly we have an overwhelming abundance of Surfacers in the Underdark. They are often the only way for an Outcast to get some fresh rp so they aren't interested in just chasing them out a lot of the time. And those characters who just share drinks with monsters are totally unknown to the surface. Why?

Because they don't have the outcast tag.

The Outcast tag imho is toxic to rp.

Dread pirate kinda feels more like a not allowed in Cordor or Brog, safety in Andunor kind of deal. If piracy got a little more crazy, maybe more settlements would bar them. You know, out of the...one and three quarters that allow them. The one is Bendie Dale. The three quarters is Guldorand. So it's not a perfect situation. And besides, elves are kind of notorious (from my own observances) for gang violence in Guldorand's streets before running back into their district, so not like you are actually safe in Guldorand. Just don't get unlucky and don't go near the Elves.

And dread still has that consequence of choosing to associate with the Underdark. As I stated before, you won't see those dreads in the settlements because they're not choosing death.

I am glad that GrumpyCat is in here, paying attention to this one, and giving critique on ideas. It shows that while it is not easy to find a solution, they're here agreeing there is a problem, and wanting to hear ideas about how to fix it.

Admittedly, I don't think too badly of the tag being hidden. I don't really think much of the whole mechanical benefits part. If you just have spies...it is something you can work against in roleplay, and the ones without bluff get certain NPC interactions that can be damning for them.

While this probably isn't the most setting appropriate place for an Outcast to hold...it used to be the case that the Outcast served as a bridge between Surface and UD rp. Of late, we have burned that bridge down and any sense of collaboration in opposing storylines has become increasingly hard to accomplish. It just feels like "us" vs. "them." There are places in the multiverse where things don't work quite as expected. Where demons and devils walk the same street. So in such a magic polluted place as the island nation of Arelith, I don't see it as much of a negative thing for us to be setting weird.

Ultimately, I think that non bluff using outcasts were always pretty easy to spot. They were weird and avoidant and careful not to go places with people. In that, characters with bluff have always and will always hold the place that they do. An Outcast who never committed crimes against Arelith had a good chance of just getting by. But they will always be what they are to the Surface communities: an outlier. Something strange. Something not properly accepted.

There is no need to bar outcasts from any city anyway, considering the tag is a kill on sight marker in all of them.

But man does it make life harder on bluff characters to live at all. There is always a spotter. The bluff game is devastatingly hard. And someone will always make you take off your hood eventually. And once they see that Outcast tag. Goodbye, and enjoy your ride to the fugue plane.

[Algol]

I don't like the term "surfacer". I don't see why a random average human can't buy a home in Anduor but an outcast can. I think it'd be fine if Anduor was just a start for non-good humans and orcs without the tag, and I think it'd be fine if anyone could own a quarter there. Maybe a few exceptions like elves.

[AstralUniverse]

I don't like the term "surfacer". I don't see why a random average human can't buy a home in Anduor but an outcast can. I think it'd be fine if Anduor was just a start for non-good humans and orcs without the tag, and I think it'd be fine if anyone could own a quarter there. Maybe a few exceptions like elves.

Because why would a human who isnt fully evil up his arse willingly choose to live with monsters. That seems against the setting and common sense.

[Algol]

People chose to live in Antarctica or other dangerous places for months for various reasons, I don't think it'd be that weird to have someone settle there for their business or research.

[D4wN]

I think that if you read the warnings on being an Outcast before you choose to make one, it should have your expectations set as to how people will view your character. I've played two outcasts now and have found it very enjoyable so it may just be a matter of personal taste, but most likely expectations and people not understanding what they're really signing up for.

The wiki at the moment opens the introduction with:

Outcasts are typically native to the island of Arelith but have done (or been convincingly accused of) a crime or act so horrible that civilization has cast them out, refusing to deal with them at all.

Personally I think the above is pretty clear. You shouldn't make an outcast because you want to play with your friends in the UD and don't want to be a Drow or Monster if you're not going to play that vile evil person who did something to really earn that reputation. If you want to play with your friends in the UD without that, I recommend simply making a Drow or Monster. If you want the experience of being tolerated in both worlds, you could make a slave or a surfacer who earns the trust with both sides through inventive disguises etc. There are plenty of people like that around too. But ultimately, the setting seems very clear on the opposing sides and who's supposed to be where. Which, if you go against the status quo on how people believe you should act in society and who you should or shouldn't associate with, you can just simply expect consequences of your actions if you get found out. Which also creates more RP for a lot of people incl. yourself.

There's also nothing stopping you making a cool surface villain (group) without the restrictions an outcast has or a pirate, we definitely need more cool surface evils. There are so many options for people to work on gaining a reputation with Andunor and not be killed because they can't use the portals. Honestly, Andunor is so super tolerant atm towards anyone unless you're an elf, Paladin or known surfacer that I don't really see why people need to make an outcast these days unless you're really going for the whole "being shunned" thing.

I do definitely think there could be cool solutions for Outcasts. As I said, I'd like something like a reputation system but the expansion on the tag is also a very cool idea.

[The GrumpyCat]

People chose to live in Antarctica or other dangerous places for months for various reasons, I don't think it'd be that weird to have someone settle there for their business or research.

It's not a matter of danger so much, it's a matter of being willing to sit back and watch countless evils enacted before and around you, and being absolutly relaxed about that.

Keep in mind that Arelith is a T rated server, and because of that we can't really go into some of the more terrible things that likely occur in the underdark. And that's fine, to be clear, that shouldn't change... but consider the equivilent isn't living in Antartcia. The equivilent is living next to Auschwitz. Living next to all that horror, torture, death - as a free civilian mark you - and choosing to do absolutly nothing about it.

I'm not going to condemn anything IRL of course. But in terms of the DnD alignment system, to CHOOSE to live in a place of pain, torture, mutilation, slavery, and far worse? To live and assist the monsters down there on a daily basis? That doesn't occur to me as a good aligned option.

[Diegovog]

It used to be pretty bad in the UD when outcast had no consequences and there were more outcasts than anything else. I'm 100% in for the outcast tag.

For the pirate ink, not at all. I already think pirates don't have much benefit besides their rental. Especially now that good-align ships can turn on only encountering evil ships, pirates only have a much higher risk of exposure and being kicked out of settlements.
IMO pirate ink should be completely concealable unless the player chooses to show it through command.

[D4wN]

The pirate ink comes with the same warnings when you talk to the tattoo guy as an outcast gets before they choose that and a slave gets before they get a collar.

You can sail and do privateer type RP or join one of the surface navy crews without being a Pirate. When you become a Pirate, you become a bandit of the sea. A thief. Quests involving shooting down merchant and Cordorian vessels and boarding and raiding them. I think it's very fair to see at least the tattoos of a Dread Pirate and I think the concept behind that is that they have worked hard to earn those tattoos happily showing them off as well as having earned the reputation of the biggest, baddest pirate in town. They already hid all other ranks, which I thought was the right decision but I don't think they need to remove dreads. You can always cover yourself or invest in bluff or perform etc. Especially now that Pirates are welcomed in Guldorand, they have more than just Sencliff to RP.

[Nobs]

Many pirates dont go up to dread.

What do you get from it?

1 acces to a portal to leave the cliff.
2 you get to buy a ship. (but not realy as they are always taken)
3 you get to use the smugglers for free.

[The GrumpyCat]

You also get access to a specific set of writs, which you can take alongside other writs (giving you effectivly four a day? Unless I'm missing something?) - a small boost to gold and xp. (Granted - RH and Assassins get this too)
You also get the ability to purchase pirate locked shops/quarters - and the quarters have their signs on the inside, giving a level of anonymity
At startup you can start as level 7

I am not putting the above here to argue that the tag is 100% worth it or not as pirates. But I feel the above should be mentioned as other perks.

[Flower Power]

You also get access to a specific set of writs, which you can take alongside other writs (giving you effectivly four a day? Unless I'm missing something?) - a small boost to gold and xp. (Granted - RH and Assassins get this too)
You also get the ability to purchase pirate locked shops/quarters - and the quarters have their signs on the inside, giving a level of anonymity
At startup you can start as level 7

I am not putting the above here to argue that the tag is 100% worth it or not as pirates. But I feel the above should be mentioned as other perks.

Those are generic pirate perks, though.

They were saying people don't go all the way to the maximum pirate rank, Dread Pirate, because the rewards offered by it pale in comparison to being immediately outed (and typically blacklisted from inclusion in RP anywhere else on the server) as a pirate.

Being a pirate opens up access to a specific lot of content. Becoming a Dread Pirate immediately closes off practically everything else for practically no gain other than clout no one will respect anyways.

[Diegovog]

IMO the small perks don't outweight the drawbacks of having the ink (at least dread ink)

Sencliff has come a long way from what it used to be, there are definitely benefits and it's super fun rping a pirate, way more than I expected. It's just still better doing piracy without being mechanically branded a pirate by the ink. Also, I don't see much benefit in going all the way to Dread unless you want the infamy, or in case there is (never) a long-lease pirate ship available.

By allowing the ink to be easily covered, it forces this "infamy" to be much better rped by people actually finding out said character is really a dangerous pirate through rp. Without the pirate having the terrible consequences of being mechanically branded a dread pirate.

Or maybe give more palpable perks to Dreads? Maybe an extra "dread-only" short-lease vessel similar to a flagship?

[D4wN]

What does it close off exactly?

Pirates can freely chill without repercussions in Sencliff, Andunor and Guldorand. And with a little investment you can be in cover likely in most places without being exposed unless you go to Cordor maybe. Basically the only places you can't openly wander as a Pirate these days are Cordor, Bendir and Brog. And I daresay only the first is likely the harshest with enforcing that.

[Edens_Fall]

Make recognising an outcast, like dread pirate tattoos, a lore check. These should easier the higher level they are, so a level 3 outcast is a nobody and only someone with lore 100 is 'aware' of the background of the character. A level 30, the DC is probably just 25 or something, because they'll be a max level high power and thus notable big baddie.

Make the outcast tag viewable by underdark races. So a dude who's picked up the notoriety of eating people doesn't have to then prove himself to drow when his outcastiness has allowed him to start in andunor.

Make people have to set text with their outcast tag. We know these can be adaptable texts under the stats because they work on manacles. With people able to enter their own text, they could tell players what they learn from their past.

I don't think the second point would fly, because I think that makes it too difficult for surfacers to enter Andunor. At the least, that's generally been the argument prior. Possibly a Lore check for the Underdarkers too sure? Or some other skill check

If we then consider how large the UD has grown with the various other mini-settlements such as saltspar, upper trade post, and the locks. . . . Is it really that much if a concern anymore?

Edited: for Grammer

[Eira]

Good or non-monster has always had higher standards than evil or monster. Apathy is a great trait of evil. And it's more likely that someone be judged by their actions in the Underdark, than on surface.

"The Tolerant Surface" has never existed in lore.

Monsters have made their way up, and it has been successful with subtlety, cunning, and effort. They are different kind of experiences, and are supposed to be.

[The GrumpyCat]

They were saying people don't go all the way to the maximum pirate rank, Dread Pirate, because the rewards offered by it pale in comparison to being immediately outed (and typically blacklisted from inclusion in RP anywhere else on the server) as a pirate.

Being a pirate opens up access to a specific lot of content. Becoming a Dread Pirate immediately closes off practically everything else for practically no gain other than clout no one will respect anyways.

Ahh! Ok absolutly fair point. My apologise I misunderstood.

Good or non-monster has always had higher standards than evil or monster. Apathy is a great trait of evil. And it's more likely that someone be judged by their actions in the Underdark, than on surface.

"The Tolerant Surface" has never existed in lore.

Monsters have made their way up, and it has been successful with subtlety, cunning, and effort. They are different kind of experiences, and are supposed to be.

Eira pretty much has it on point here.
It's for the same reason historically that Surface Settlments had kill scripts, but Andunors didn't.

Most surfacers tend towards the 'good' alignment, and people associate it (OOCly) with tolerance, love, peace et cetera. So (historically anyway) if an outcast or even monster race came up to the surface with a sob story, quite often it'd be accepted. I don't think this is quite so much the case now, but that's been borne of many, many years work.

In counter argument, when Outcasts were first introduce to Andunor, they were quite often just killed at the docks unless the player took the slave collar. Now again - this was early days of Andunor and the team stamped down on it pretty hard, but there was a LOT of pushback against legitimate outcasts. The Underdark is full of Evil people, who are more than happy to maim/torture/kill and who are very happy to be hostile-on-sight to surfacers, given that the roleplay of their races often does push for that sort of thing.

This is no aspersions on either side, but it's just the way it was and... to a degree... the way it still is I think?

[perseid]

They were saying people don't go all the way to the maximum pirate rank, Dread Pirate, because the rewards offered by it pale in comparison to being immediately outed (and typically blacklisted from inclusion in RP anywhere else on the server) as a pirate.

Being a pirate opens up access to a specific lot of content. Becoming a Dread Pirate immediately closes off practically everything else for practically no gain other than clout no one will respect anyways.

Ahh! Ok absolutly fair point. My apologise I misunderstood.

Good or non-monster has always had higher standards than evil or monster. Apathy is a great trait of evil. And it's more likely that someone be judged by their actions in the Underdark, than on surface.

"The Tolerant Surface" has never existed in lore.

Monsters have made their way up, and it has been successful with subtlety, cunning, and effort. They are different kind of experiences, and are supposed to be.

Eira pretty much has it on point here.
It's for the same reason historically that Surface Settlments had kill scripts, but Andunors didn't.

Most surfacers tend towards the 'good' alignment, and people associate it (OOCly) with tolerance, love, peace et cetera. So (historically anyway) if an outcast or even monster race came up to the surface with a sob story, quite often it'd be accepted. I don't think this is quite so much the case now, but that's been borne of many, many years work.

In counter argument, when Outcasts were first introduce to Andunor, they were quite often just killed at the docks unless the player took the slave collar. Now again - this was early days of Andunor and the team stamped down on it pretty hard, but there was a LOT of pushback against legitimate outcasts. The Underdark is full of Evil people, who are more than happy to maim/torture/kill and who are very happy to be hostile-on-sight to surfacers, given that the roleplay of their races often does push for that sort of thing.

This is no aspersions on either side, but it's just the way it was and... to a degree... the way it still is I think?

Wouldn't this have been an argument against the current system where only people who aren't monsters/pirates/outcasts can identify Outcasts from my understanding? Since it'd have been obvious at a glance "That person is from the home team". Interestingly imo this is part of why Dread Pirate works in the Underdark. Since in my experience while some Dread Pirates can still become maligned it acts as a signal that at least tells the locals "I'm probably unpopular with your enemies" and this gets the pirate a foot in the door as long as they're not something locally controversial like an elf.

[Edens_Fall]

They were saying people don't go all the way to the maximum pirate rank, Dread Pirate, because the rewards offered by it pale in comparison to being immediately outed (and typically blacklisted from inclusion in RP anywhere else on the server) as a pirate.

Being a pirate opens up access to a specific lot of content. Becoming a Dread Pirate immediately closes off practically everything else for practically no gain other than clout no one will respect anyways.

Ahh! Ok absolutly fair point. My apologise I misunderstood.

Good or non-monster has always had higher standards than evil or monster. Apathy is a great trait of evil. And it's more likely that someone be judged by their actions in the Underdark, than on surface.

"The Tolerant Surface" has never existed in lore.

Monsters have made their way up, and it has been successful with subtlety, cunning, and effort. They are different kind of experiences, and are supposed to be.

Eira pretty much has it on point here.
It's for the same reason historically that Surface Settlments had kill scripts, but Andunors didn't.

Most surfacers tend towards the 'good' alignment, and people associate it (OOCly) with tolerance, love, peace et cetera. So (historically anyway) if an outcast or even monster race came up to the surface with a sob story, quite often it'd be accepted. I don't think this is quite so much the case now, but that's been borne of many, many years work.

In counter argument, when Outcasts were first introduce to Andunor, they were quite often just killed at the docks unless the player took the slave collar. Now again - this was early days of Andunor and the team stamped down on it pretty hard, but there was a LOT of pushback against legitimate outcasts. The Underdark is full of Evil people, who are more than happy to maim/torture/kill and who are very happy to be hostile-on-sight to surfacers, given that the roleplay of their races often does push for that sort of thing.

This is no aspersions on either side, but it's just the way it was and... to a degree... the way it still is I think?

Wouldn't this have been an argument against the current system where only people who aren't monsters/pirates/outcasts can identify Outcasts from my understanding? Since it'd have been obvious at a glance "That person is from the home team". Interestingly imo this is part of why Dread Pirate works in the Underdark. Since in my experience while some Dread Pirates can still become maligned it acts as a signal that at least tells the locals "I'm probably unpopular with your enemies" and this gets the pirate a foot in the door as long as they're not something locally controversial like an elf.

That last part is interesting and not one I have really thought about. If we want to keep things in line with the staff's vision, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to make it so monsters/pirates/outcasts can't see pirate tags either just as they can't see Outcast then? This would ensure the only players about to make use of the OOC notification would be those on the surface while helping ensure Andunor remains an open "trade city" to all while reducing the local's ability to limit/grant access to any one group over another.

[perseid]

Ahh! Ok absolutly fair point. My apologise I misunderstood.

Eira pretty much has it on point here.
It's for the same reason historically that Surface Settlments had kill scripts, but Andunors didn't.

Most surfacers tend towards the 'good' alignment, and people associate it (OOCly) with tolerance, love, peace et cetera. So (historically anyway) if an outcast or even monster race came up to the surface with a sob story, quite often it'd be accepted. I don't think this is quite so much the case now, but that's been borne of many, many years work.

In counter argument, when Outcasts were first introduce to Andunor, they were quite often just killed at the docks unless the player took the slave collar. Now again - this was early days of Andunor and the team stamped down on it pretty hard, but there was a LOT of pushback against legitimate outcasts. The Underdark is full of Evil people, who are more than happy to maim/torture/kill and who are very happy to be hostile-on-sight to surfacers, given that the roleplay of their races often does push for that sort of thing.

This is no aspersions on either side, but it's just the way it was and... to a degree... the way it still is I think?

Wouldn't this have been an argument against the current system where only people who aren't monsters/pirates/outcasts can identify Outcasts from my understanding? Since it'd have been obvious at a glance "That person is from the home team". Interestingly imo this is part of why Dread Pirate works in the Underdark. Since in my experience while some Dread Pirates can still become maligned it acts as a signal that at least tells the locals "I'm probably unpopular with your enemies" and this gets the pirate a foot in the door as long as they're not something locally controversial like an elf.

That last part is interesting and not one I have really thought about. If we want to keep things in line with the staff's vision, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to make it so monsters/pirates/outcasts can't see pirate tags either just as they can't see Outcast then? This would ensure the only players about to make use of the OOC notification would be those on the surface while helping ensure Andunor remains an open "trade city" to all while reducing the local's ability to limit/grant access to any one group over another.

It does get a little nuanced in that theoretically a Dread Pirate can still be vaguely functional on the Surface compared to an Outcast who probably has to have a build strategy they're running (like a disguise). So I wouldn't say it's a perfect comparison. It's just still more than an Outcast can signal period since at the very least people know "That guy can maybe get around Guldorand but overall they're still likely one of us."

[Royal Blood]

I would say even outcasts are still regarded warily in Andunor. Especially if they are transitioning from surface to UD. Even if they are a surface outcast their nefarious actions don't always equate to acceptance in Andunor. Traditionally you need like an Andorian sponsor, aka someone who is reputable that can say "This person is cool" to get acceptance or like at a minimum not be attacked.

I think the rigidness towards these characters on both sides comes from the damage an unchecked spy can do.

Regardless, I think the tags unfortunately still serve a valid purpose at maintaining the two different camps and enforcing the role play expectations.

[Biolab00]

Not sure if this has been mentioned or referenced to, in the topic yet but,
Outcast PC are no different than any Surface PC for Andunor PCs (Drow, Gnolls, Kobolds, Goblins etc) because Outcast tag is only visible to the Surface PC but hidden from -ALL- Andunor PCs.

Therefore...Outcast tag does not have any purpose for RP-wise in Andunor except the mechanical advantage.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So, the way I see it, outcast and dread are two different things, so I will approach them differently.

1) Outcast as a background shouldn't even exist. It's pointless, ripe for abuse because of the benefits it gets, and goes against what the game should be about. If you want to be notorious criminal, go do criminal stuff in game and build up your rep. If you want to be involved with the underdark, take the time to learn the language(s) and get involved with them darkies if they letcha. I have never understood why giving someone off screen notoriety with benefits was ever thought to be a good idea, and how anyone expected it to land anywhere but here in practice.

2) Lumping dread in with this is just silly. Pirates already have it too easy, and I think we should go back to where every bit of ink had a spot check personally. Playing a pirate is a choice, and disguise is an option for those who want to infiltrate. But I will just stick with dread since thats how it is.

I don't know if things have changed a lot since I last played a pirate, but when I did I think I was thankful for forgotten realms having a respawn system otherwise we would have wiped out the population of Amn 4 times over. In fact, I'm surprised there isn't a bridge between arelith and Faerun at this point made from sunken ships piled on top of each other from the sea floor. Now the one thing that does suck is that anyone can kill amnian ships, even the cordorian navy if they wanted to, without any consequence...so it does kinda take away from being a dread in that regard. But that massive flaw aside, a dread still has had to do lots of evil stuff to get to where he is, even if it is crimes against the AI and therefore not really a crime in the mentality of many who play here. In other words, Dread pirates should be scary and well known, and that part is spot on on Arelith.