Lore Master and Casters

[-XXX-]

LM allows certain mundane builds to act as both rock and scissors, relegating traditional casters to the role of (wet) paper.

Mundanes primarily take LM for access to WoF, secondarily (if they can get their Lore high enough) for access to Mord's and Timestop.
Mords and WoF are used to counter buffs and summons respectively = pretty much a big bulk of any spellcaster's gimmick.
Timestop facilitates the execution of these spells more tempo efficiently.

Now, casters need to maintain both high Disc and CL - taking LM means sacrificing one or another entirely for them. This isn't a comparable tradeoff that mundanes make - waiving discipline or losing 5 points of CL isn't the same as sacrificing 2-3 points of AB.

[Svrtr]

Granted to be fair mords scrolls are CL 17, so with loremaster they are CL 22 where as book cast mords with esf abj on a caster is 26, representing 20% higher chance to dispel each ward

Granted casters with loremaster and esf abj get CL 25 mords scrolls with 50% refund chance which is the only niche I can justify and it itself is probably problematic

Back to watching from a distance I go

[AstralUniverse]

I think the more hilarious part is actually Holy Sword scrolls which cannot be crafted anymore but can still be found in loot and hoarded for pvp.

base cl 15 + 5 lm = 20
cl cap on pally spellbook = 21.

So a battle cleric for example, or favoured soul or whatever with esf abjuration will have the same cl holy sword as a paladin with just gsf abjuration (which is overpowered, as we've established plenty of times). If said cleric or favoured soul didnt drop discipline and CL for loremaster, I would be concerned right there.

[svet]

I think the more hilarious part is actually Holy Sword scrolls which cannot be crafted anymore but can still be found in loot and hoarded for pvp.

base cl 15 + 5 lm = 20
cl cap on pally spellbook = 21.

So a battle cleric for example, or favoured soul or whatever with esf abjuration will have the same cl holy sword as a paladin with just gsf abjuration (which is overpowered, as we've established plenty of times). If said cleric or favoured soul didnt drop discipline and CL for loremaster, I would be concerned right there.

the more hilarious part is that you can't even use the scroll so there's nothing to worry about.

[AstralUniverse]

I think the more hilarious part is actually Holy Sword scrolls which cannot be crafted anymore but can still be found in loot and hoarded for pvp.

base cl 15 + 5 lm = 20
cl cap on pally spellbook = 21.

So a battle cleric for example, or favoured soul or whatever with esf abjuration will have the same cl holy sword as a paladin with just gsf abjuration (which is overpowered, as we've established plenty of times). If said cleric or favoured soul didnt drop discipline and CL for loremaster, I would be concerned right there.

the more hilarious part is that you can't even use the scroll so there's nothing to worry about.

They got disabled entirely? That's actually nice to hear.

[Subtext]

Now, casters need to maintain both high Disc and CL - taking LM means sacrificing one or another entirely for them. This isn't a comparable tradeoff that mundanes make - waiving discipline or losing 5 points of CL isn't the same as sacrificing 2-3 points of AB.

You don't even sacrifice 2-3 points of AB. There's the +1 AB secret and don't underestimate the use of some scrolls/ wands. Just from the top of my head:

• Divine Favor with +3 AB/Damage instead of +1. Yes, it only lasts a minute but 3 AB isn't to scoff at and the scrolls are very cheap.
• Bless Weapon with a +4 Enhancement bonus instead of +3 - which is awesome if you don't get +5 on your weapon anyway or the enhancement bonus stacks damagewise on the weapon.
• Aid with 10 minutes duration instead of 5, making it much more reliable to use
• 1 more AC from barkskin wands
• 3 AC from magic vestment. If you don't use a +4 shield, that allows for a custom enchanted shield

I don't see the value for mundanes so much in getting access to 9th level scrolls but more to be able to employ a range of cheaper buffs much more effectively. That really doesn't compare to the value casters get out of the class.

[Algol]

25 fighter 5 wm and 20 fighter 5 wm 5 lm have the same AC if you include the +1 ac from barkskin. Lore master has 1 more ac if both are using shield lotions and helmet of protection. 25 fighter has 1 more ab since they can grab 2 more great strength feats. I really don't think LM sacrifices anything of note.

[Svrtr]

Now, casters need to maintain both high Disc and CL - taking LM means sacrificing one or another entirely for them. This isn't a comparable tradeoff that mundanes make - waiving discipline or losing 5 points of CL isn't the same as sacrificing 2-3 points of AB.

You don't even sacrifice 2-3 points of AB. There's the +1 AB secret and don't underestimate the use of some scrolls/ wands. Just from the top of my head:

• Divine Favor with +3 AB/Damage instead of +1. Yes, it only lasts a minute but 3 AB isn't to scoff at and the scrolls are very cheap.
• Bless Weapon with a +4 Enhancement bonus instead of +3 - which is awesome if you don't get +5 on your weapon anyway or the enhancement bonus stacks damagewise on the weapon.
• Aid with 10 minutes duration instead of 5, making it much more reliable to use
• 1 more AC from barkskin wands
• 3 AC from magic vestment. If you don't use a +4 shield, that allows for a custom enchanted shield

I don't see the value for mundanes so much in getting access to 9th level scrolls but more to be able to employ a range of cheaper buffs much more effectively. That really doesn't compare to the value casters get out of the class.

While largely true for many of the benefits, the magic vestment one is less notable as the fighter bonus ac values don't work on vestments and only works on the inherent bonuses on the item. The +1 shield ac at 10 fighter makes a +4 tower shield as +5 via the application of a "temporary" property, but this bonus doesn't apply to other temporary buff sources like vestments

Although getting gate and time stop scrolls shouldn't be underated

[MissEvelyn]

This wasn't mentioned by anyone, so I'll do it:
Martials who dip Loremaster also sacrifice Hit Points. The hit dice for Loremaster is a d6, which no martials have. Even rogues on Arelith have a d8 hit dice.
For someone like a barbarian, that's cutting your hit dice in half for those levels.

[-XXX-]

This wasn't mentioned by anyone, so I'll do it:
Martials who dip Loremaster also sacrifice Hit Points. The hit dice for Loremaster is a d6, which no martials have. Even rogues on Arelith have a d8 hit dice.
For someone like a barbarian, that's cutting your hit dice in half for those levels.

Lesser secret of health gives 30hp (effectively turning that d6 HD into d12)

[Whosdis]

I do think Loremaster is sufficient in almost every way.

My one critique is that the class does not have Leadership. I have a friend more interested in RP than PVP so Loremaster is a fitting class, except she is an Enchantment Specialist, which means that the classes that would let her have no synergy whatsoever with wizard, such as specialist, bard, warlock, etc.