lost ark unannounced change

[woke moralist]

i sent this along to DMs earlier today, but now that this has been confirmed as a design decision it warrants a feedback thread. i’ll quote what i sent to the team here, and add a final tl;dr at the bottom.

hi,

the lost ark ship seems to have received a new update that was not announced anywhere. it has an additional weapon now that inflicts a slow (screenshots below), and I'm not sure if it also does a small bit of dmg too.

whether it does dmg or not, this seems pretty unfair. if you are in a 100 sail brigantine against a 100 sail galleon, your advantage is speed. you probably won't beat them in a straight fight, but if you're smart, you can maybe do some damage and get away. galleons are much more powerful with higher flat hp, dr, ability to use bombards or 2x heavy javelin.

now the lost ark, balanced around being slow, has a weapon that removes this slow and I don't really understand why. i think this just makes sailing more unfair. it's also not been announced anywhere.

as for my stakes and bias - i love sailing, and most of the time am sailing on a brigantine. it's already a risk for us if we get caught by a galleon, but the brigantine ships specifically have a speed boost ability that is unique to them. it just strikes me as unfair design that now the lost ark has a way to defeat this at no cost. their ship has not been frequently beaten by other sailors, they were very much a real threat even before this update and imo do not need this buff.

part of my problem is also that there was no collaborative story around this - no search (that I'm aware of) by the ark's crew for some powerful weapon that maybe other sailors could have banded together to try and stop. it's just a straight up buff that I only found out about when we got attacked last night.

thanks for reading

tl;dr thoughts,
1) the lost ark is a galleon ship that’s strong, but slower than lighter classes (brigantine/galley/cog). now they have a weapon that reduces speed of other ships. i think this is a bad design.

2) what is the intention of this weapon beyond giving the lost ark the means to win more?

3) there was a period when this weapon was being developed and implemented that nobody except a few (and presumably the ark crew, after the weapon was made live) knew about it. i feel that this is unfair and i think development should be more transparent.

and finally, i love sailing and appreciate that all work here is done by volunteer devs. i guess i want to make the point that this feedback comes from a good place of enjoyment for what we have and what AR/devs have created.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

it probably wasn't announced because it involved IC roleplay in the process, it was the same thing when the Ironhelm attached their magic cannon

[Enertis]

What about Ironhelm then or Chain shoot ? Also bed designe?

[woke moralist]

it probably wasn't announced because it involved IC roleplay in the process, it was the same thing when the Ironhelm attached their magic cannon

if there's been IC work behind it then fair enough, but i think my feedback on the design of this weapon still stands - i personally don't see how a big ship that's strong but slow should have the advantage of slowing other ships. it feels unfair. but as this has not been announced or documented, i don't know what the numbers actually are.

i think as a second point to that i'd say - if this was created by an IC plot, i certainly didn't know about it and my character has been sailing a lot over the last month. and i have not heard about it from any other, longstanding sail characters ic either. so my feedback on that would be that i think the plot could have done more to involve other sailing factions and generate some collaborative storybuilding and conflict. maybe it did, and maybe i was totally oblivious to it - i don't say that facetiously, either.

What about Ironhelm then or Chain shoot ? Also bed designe?

chain shot is available on both mangonel and bombard - which means it can be used by ships smaller than a galleon, so i don't think that's a problem no. again, the issue is just with the lost ark having this weapon in addition to their bombard. i guess they could theoretically use both this and chain shot to just really cripple speed? idk.

as for ironhelm, a different topic, but personally i don't really like the arcane canon either. but as i say, a bit off topic.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

yeah, it was roleplayed. the whole thing was inspired ICly by the ark getting nearly sunk a dozen times even while staffing 100 sail and +5 ammunition. versus the Sea Leopard it seems strong, but the Ark was regularly getting 2v1'd by flagships, which drove the characters involved with the crew to seek upgrades.

the ice cannon was an actual fixture that was developed over a number of years.

[Flower Power]

The Ark is a flagship. It's a Really Very Big Ship with more HP and DR than other non-flagship ships of its class, and since it's a galleon, that means most ships out there other than the Levy/Tempest/Ironhelm/Dread. It mounts Very Big Guns, or more smaller guns than other ships can carry.

Its sole balancing act was being slow and ponderous compared to smaller, lightly armed ships.

It now has two different abilities at its disposal that are unique to galleons and itself to slow other ships down, which render the sole point around which its power is balanced moot. This is not good design.

The Ironhelm's Big Special Cannon, for example, leans into its strength rather than counteracting its only weakness. It makes big holes in things. This makes it more good at what it's good at, rather than just rendering it a ship with No Real Drawbacks Now. This is good design.

[Lewtzy]

The Ironhelm's Cannon is also AB capped at 16.

This ice shot thing appears to have no such limitation. which is a bit extreme.
If anything, I'd at least place a hard cap on the Ice Cannon AB.

It's a cool idea. But I feel it could be rebalanced a bit better.
I'm not even sure what the CD is for example.
Or what ammo it uses.

[perseid]

I realize there's some merit to discussing the balance implications of these sorts of things but I'm going to be lazy in that regard because I think it's misleading to imply there was much of an existent balance to sailing already. So from that perspective without a hard numerical comparison between this and things like the Arcane Cannon or other vessel unique weapons/abilities I don't think there's actually much to argue over. A slow ship with a slowing weapon doesn't seem inherently paradigm shifting in an environment everyone just lenses if they're about to lose anyway. To the matter of judging if it was rped though, I realize it's unpopular to chime in about semi-recent roleplay but if we're going to lob around accusations about it not having been an inclusive enough event I'd just like to throw onto the pile of people affirming it was an ongoing matter for some time that saw input from a number of characters and certainly enough for there to have been a risk of word getting out.

[Yvesza]

I'm not sure how I feel about ships quietly getting otherwise mechanically unattainable (And very significant) upgrades, IC effort or not it just seems... Unfair? Does this mean that all ships are going to receive significantly powerful weapons, or are we going to just be living in a system of haves and have nots?

I'm a little dissapointed because this seems to run counter to the otherwise fair nature of the server, we're moving into territory where your ability to compete is no longer about having a ship, a crew and a bard... But all of those -and- owning one of the two ships with significantly improved armaments.

Personally I'd just like to see an even playing a field and not one that's going to be tilted towards players that were in the right place at the right time. IC effort or not, this is similar to a player asking (and being given) a +5 weapon on the back of a DM quest.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

The Ironhelm's Cannon is also AB capped at 16.

This ice shot thing appears to have no such limitation. which is a bit extreme.
If anything, I'd at least place a hard cap on the Ice Cannon AB.

It's a cool idea. But I feel it could be rebalanced a bit better.
I'm not even sure what the CD is for example.
Or what ammo it uses.

perm essences.
the cooldown is longer than the arcane cannon and it does about the same damage as a javelin
the ab is capped but I don't know where at. I watched NPC ships deflecting the shots recently though

[Lewtzy]

perm essences.
the cooldown is longer than the arcane cannon and it does about the same damage as a javelin
the ab is capped but I don't know where at. I watched NPC ships deflecting the shots recently though

So the screenshot above is not the ice cannon firing but just the bombard/Mango?
Since that shows an average 100 sail/5=20 + 5 + foig = 27. on the AB of something that hits right before the ship is hit by the ice pulse.

(Also possible my math is off ofc.)

[In Sorrow We Trust]

perm essences.
the cooldown is longer than the arcane cannon and it does about the same damage as a javelin
the ab is capped but I don't know where at. I watched NPC ships deflecting the shots recently though

So the screenshot above is not the ice cannon firing but just the bombard/Mango?
Since that shows an average 100 sail/5=20 + 5 + foig = 27. on the AB of something that hits right before the ship is hit by the ice pulse.

no idea, wasn't there to see it

[woke moralist]

if the lost ark was losing to other flagships and being 2v1'd, i don't see how this is the solution. what does the slowing weapon add to their survival? it feels more like it's intended for catching smaller, faster ships, and sinking them.

would a thicker hull not have made sense for a 2v1? more hp, higher dr? something like this. i don't see how this weapon meaningfully prolongs their survival in a 2v1, unless it's purely for their own escape in which case the unintended consequences are now that brigantines, galleys and cogs are now even more vulnerable to it than they already were.

i'm not aware of many 2v1 instances against the ark in the last month, so i can't speak to how often it is happening. but it seems to me like there's other solutions there - in the first instance, splitting their own crews between ships of the cliff or aligning with the dreadnought.

[Lewtzy]

Since it has also been upgraded to a flagship, it gained approx 85 health and 1 dr lvl on top of the cannon. So it did gain a thicker hull.
It's a cool change, but I think it probably just needs a bit of tuning to ensure there is some form of balance with it. That's all.

Cause currently, it's the Tempest/Leviathan, with an Ice Cannon.

[woke moralist]

I did not know it was also upgraded to a flagship as well as getting the cannon (I must be out of the loop on the flagship part). I think that just reinforces my opinion even further.

[nicebreakfast]

My opinion as a former pirate player :

I think it should be :

• upgraded to flagship (because honestly - pirates should have a flagship long time ago)
• keep as a galleon + ice cannon

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i'm not aware of many 2v1 instances against the ark in the last month, so i can't speak to how often it is happening. but it seems to me like there's other solutions there - in the first instance, splitting their own crews between ships of the cliff or aligning with the dreadnought.

splitting is a valid tactic, but not usually an option with how much sencliff population fluctuates. it can go from being super active one day to nearly completely dead the next, and kind of comes in waves

I'll not address dreadnought alliance because although that's a thing it never really made sense for the setting of sencliff as presented

as for the other ships, the leviathan has a boarding advantage with the onboarding portal but I have suggested to look at the other ships to AR, especially the tempest and starlight. ironhelm is extremely strong when utilized properly, but if we're keeping it the way it is, then other ships should get something to compensate

[Svrtr]

Just an outsider with no stake in this particular case, but on a purely balance perspective, giving a weapon with big damage is fine. The slow, however, does seem unjustified and like it doesn't aid in flagship v flagship combat nearly as much as it allows for the ship to prey on smaller ships who would have the chance to escape via speed

Cool cookies earned in rp are cool but balance wise it does set a precedent that is at least a tad concerning, if sheerly for the slow part.

[woke moralist]

brigantine crews are hit hardest by this because our advantage was a speed boost that we could use to run away from big ships like the ark and even more-so now that it is a flagship (another change that wasn't announced?). It's basically unwinnable for a brig in 100 sail v 100 sail flagship contest. this weapon really feels targeted against us, not other flagships. my bias, i'll gladly reveal, is that i do sail in a brigantine crew.

but now we're in a position where (again, numbers haven't been released) it looks that the ark can remove that speed advantage. so if we're in edgewaters and get caught without a lens, we're doomed.

sure, every ship could get it's own unique thing - i can't say i really like that personally, i think just the standard, same weapons across all ships approach is best. but even if we do go down this route, it means that until some point in the foreseeable future when we might get a special ability, sailing just got a whole lot harder for us and we didn't have any recourse via rp to be involved in this story. was this a DM led plot to get the weapon? i just haven't heard anything about it in-character at all.

and finally, i do think the development process for sailing should be more transparent. i'm not trying to snipe or criticize unduly - i really appreciate the work that goes into it and it's my favourite thing on the server. which is why i care about it a lot!

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Just an outsider with no stake in this particular case, but on a purely balance perspective, giving a weapon with big damage is fine. The slow, however, does seem unjustified and like it doesn't aid in flagship v flagship combat nearly as much as it allows for the ship to prey on smaller ships who would have the chance to escape via speed

Cool cookies earned in rp are cool but balance wise it does set a precedent that is at least a tad concerning, if sheerly for the slow part.

chain shots (once we get them) do the same thing. difference being that the ice cannon is flavored as ice and can be used independently of on deck weaponry

[woke moralist]

i will quickly add (my real final post for a bit) that i think chain shots are slightly different, because ships smaller than the ark will have access to them, too.

this unique weapon is a slow that will be in addition to those chain shots.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i will quickly add (my real final post for a bit) that i think chain shots are slightly different, because ships smaller than the ark will have access to them, too.

this unique weapon is a slow that will be in addition to those chain shots.

no that's what chain shots will do. my understanding of how AR implemented the ice cannon is that it uses the same basic template

unless there's some other thing it does.

[Kythana]

Don't really have a stake in sailing, so I can't comment there, but.

Really, really not a fan of unannounced changes. Don't really care if they're ic or not. Mechanically beneficial changes, especially ones that affect pvp should not be just treated like the wild west.

And yes, this includes unannounced changes in the past too. Awful design.

It also calls into questions of transparency and favoritism.

I.E, why is this one specific group allowed this? What are the reasonings behind it? Why wasn't feedback gathered from players it was going to affect?

The only reason I can see for releasing an unannounced benefit like this is to allow a player/group to blindside others.

[-XXX-]

Just an outsider with no stake in this particular case, but on a purely balance perspective, giving a weapon with big damage is fine. The slow, however, does seem unjustified...

I don't understand how excessive damage can be OK when a slow effect isn't percieved as such. Keep in mind that hull damage drastically slows any ship down, so dealing excessive damage IS also a slow effect.

Speaking of which - Ironhelm still packs hands down the most powerful broadside kick of all ships available ATM.
This represents an altered balance dynamic in the context of ship stealth tweak.

It's basically unwinnable for a brig in 100 sail v 100 sail flagship contest. this weapon really feels targeted against us, not other flagships. my bias, i'll gladly reveal, is that i do sail in a brigantine crew.

This sounds about right TBH. We're essentially talking about a 6 vs 4 PvP encounter here after all. I lost count of how many times the Ironhelm chomped off almost 40% of a 100 sail Liberator's hull (Leopard's carbon copy minus the sails and goons) with its opening salvo alone.
Brigs aren't supposed to fight even 1v1 battles against galleons and flagships - I've never been under the impression that ought to be the case either.

[Yvesza]

For the record the Iron Helm cannon isn't particularly fair either, sure opening up extra things to other ships would be nice but it really should be something either everyone can get, or no one. This is essentially just making one ship flat out better than all others.

Also, if smaller ships are supposed to be unable to fighter larger ones... Why does the larger one get the most powerful tool to prevent their escape?

None of this sits well with me at all and again, I'll stress this. This is entirely like being gifted an otherwise unobtainable ring of truesight, or a unique +5 weapon. Sure IC effort might've gone into it but I don't think that justifies the imbalance. I've put plenty of effort into my roleplay in the past, as have a LOT of others. Where do we draw the line on which kind of roleplay should be rewarded with unique boons? I think it's clear in that no amount of roleplay should offer it, but maybe I'm in the minority.