lost ark unannounced change

[-XXX-]

Also, if smaller ships are supposed to be unable to fighter larger ones... Why does the larger one get the most powerful tool to prevent their escape?

Smaller ships are faster and it's supposed to be a game of catch rather than rock 'em sock 'em robots. The bigger ship needs to furl sails in order to score good hits, giving the smaller ship a chance to run for it at full sails. Otherwise they end up inefectually missing each other at full sails until one reaches local waters, unless extreme variance (boxcars happen) occurs.
For the record, a skeleton crewed Leopard (only 3 PCs on board = 75 crew sail max) narrowly escaped an encounter where it was chased by a fully crewed 100 sail Ark yesterday. I've seen Ironhelm just trounce 100 sail pirate brigs in a fraction of the time.

Just for comparison here:

• The arcane cannon yields the equivalent of a bombard shot
• The frost cannon is more akin to a light javelin

Sure, both are extra and any ship suffering a direct hit from either gets considerably slowed down, the arcane cannon just deals 8x more damage...

[Yvesza]

Also, if smaller ships are supposed to be unable to fighter larger ones... Why does the larger one get the most powerful tool to prevent their escape?

Smaller ships are faster and it's supposed to be a game of catch rather than rock 'em sock 'em robots. For the record, a skeleton crewed Leopard (only 3 PCs on board = 75 crew sail max) narrowly escaped an encounter where it was chased by a fully crewed 100 sail Ark yesterday.

I've seen Ironhelm just trounce 100 sail pirate brigs in a fraction of a time.

Just for comparison here:

• The arcane cannon yields the equivalent of a bombard shot
• The frost cannon is more akin to a light javelin

Sure, both are extra and any ship suffering a direct hit from either gets considerably slowed down, the arcane cannon just deals 8x more damage...

Smaller ships that can't escape are dead. This 'javelin' slows. It's also free to fire in addition to the normal weapons, so what exactly do smaller ships do?

I don't think either ships should have bonus weapons for what it's worth, again. This is just becomming an issue of the haves and have nots. Two ships are now strictly best in class and there's no way for anyone else to catch up.

[Misericordus]

If anyone needs me I will be leveraging my large network of powerful friends and elite roleplayers to build a superweapon that instantly vaporizes all online gloamings and half-giants when I say the secret codephrase "Luiren spring cheese."

Don't worry it only has enough juice for a single use and all of this will be supported by weeks of intensive channels energy roleplay in-game

[Scurvy Cur]

yeah, it was roleplayed. the whole thing was inspired ICly by the ark getting nearly sunk a dozen times even while staffing 100 sail and +5 ammunition. versus the Sea Leopard it seems strong, but the Ark was regularly getting 2v1'd by flagships, which drove the characters involved with the crew to seek upgrades.

the ice cannon was an actual fixture that was developed over a number of years.

I’m just curious if this indicates that player driven super weapon research will now receive broad brush mechanical support, or whether this is a one off thing?

Will private groups be able to research upgrades for non settlement vessels, since the Ark isn’t one either?

I have ideas and I am definitely willing to emote with friends for a year to add them to the ships I can use.

[Flower Power]

I'll emote for at least two weeks to get a Mantle-of-Doriath inspired Super Secret Elven High Tech Device that we can feed greater catalysts into to project a short-duration mist bottle effect on cooldown added to the Starlight, personally.

[Bazelgeuse]

If we can roleplay researching things that get added to the game, I want to get some alchemists and herbalists together so that we can come up with a use for Blueleaf Extract. One that doesn't involve a peddler or a trash barrel.

[Wrips]

"IC" change like the one that modified the Talos statue boon after sharrans "roleplayed" there.

[Scurvy Cur]

"IC" change like the one that modified the Talos statue boon after sharrans "roleplayed" there.

True.

Maybe we can get some human roleplay in the Maur dungeon to modify that boon? I’m down for some human roleplay.

[-XXX-]

Nobody bat an eyebrow when the Ironhelm got upgraded from a barely-floating galley to a steel-armored battleship with a laser cannon.
Why's the Ark suddenly a topic for conversation now?

[Curve]

None of this sits well with me at all and again, I'll stress this. This is entirely like being gifted an otherwise unobtainable ring of truesight, or a unique +5 weapon. Sure IC effort might've gone into it but I don't think that justifies the imbalance. I've put plenty of effort into my roleplay in the past, as have a LOT of others. Where do we draw the line on which kind of roleplay should be rewarded with unique boons? I think it's clear in that no amount of roleplay should offer it, but maybe I'm in the minority.

I agree with you.

[Scurvy Cur]

Nobody bat an eyebrow when the Ironhelm got upgraded from a barely-floating galley to a steel-armored battleship with a laser cannon.
Why's the Ark suddenly a topic for conversation now?

Cool whataboutism, but I’ll engage.

This was absolutely complained about when it went in. I think you’ll find, if you bother to read the posts, that basically everyone in here would support removing the laser cannon that got added to the tempest when an active dev was high sheriff and then transferred to Brog when he lost an election.

The double standard I’m more interested at the moment, however, is why “Ark loses 1v1 to flagships” is grounds for a hull strength buff, and “Ark can’t 2v1 is grounds for adding a new weapon”, but “Brigantines now cannot escape the Ark if it uses its magic snare gun” is simply the correct and logical intended result.

[Biolab00]

The Ark is a flagship. It's a Really Very Big Ship with more HP and DR than other non-flagship ships of its class, and since it's a galleon, that means most ships out there other than the Levy/Tempest/Ironhelm/Dread. It mounts Very Big Guns, or more smaller guns than other ships can carry.

Its sole balancing act was being slow and ponderous compared to smaller, lightly armed ships.

It now has two different abilities at its disposal that are unique to galleons and itself to slow other ships down, which render the sole point around which its power is balanced moot. This is not good design.

The Ironhelm's Big Special Cannon, for example, leans into its strength rather than counteracting its only weakness. It makes big holes in things. This makes it more good at what it's good at, rather than just rendering it a ship with No Real Drawbacks Now. This is good design.

A little misinformation in this post actually.
Lost Ark is a galleon ship that has the same HP and DR as the First and Second Sisters Galleon ships.
A Fully crewed Flag ship -always- defeat a Fully crewed Galleon ship unless it's two Ships against One Ship.

[-XXX-]

This was absolutely complained about when it went in. I think you’ll find, if you bother to read the posts, that basically everyone in here would support removing the laser cannon that got added to the tempest when an active dev was high sheriff and then transferred to Brog when he lost an election.

It was actually my character (hilariously enough the same character who spent the past 6 months getting shot at by it) who brokered the deal between the Thayvians and thane Oak. This was the result of extensive diplomatic RP and IG negotiations - so no, it really wasn't a mere scorned Dev's whim, as you'd like to make us believe here.

And I do not recall any complaints back at the time because despite Ironhelm's impressive stats, Brog navy simply didn't have the sailors to crew it properly when it went live and the Roses blew us out of the waters with ease - to a point when we had to court pirates to leave us be until we got our sea legs. Guld didn't even have any active navy to talk about, so if there were any complaints coming from them, it'd be about losing a toy they never showed any interest to play with to begin with.
It took a few months before Brog stepped up its sailing game and it became apparent that the Ironhelm might be a little too good.

[Wrips]

"IC" change like the one that modified the Talos statue boon after sharrans "roleplayed" there.

True.

Maybe we can get some human roleplay in the Maur dungeon to modify that boon? I’m down for some human roleplay.

Let me invite my dev friend first, so he has every roleplay instance documented before he goes on with the change.

[l3laze]

Brigs can escape the Ark in a 1v1 situation, It happened just under 24 hours ago and the Ark was using a bombard + the ice cannon.

I believe the staff is waiting before making a public announcement to carry out the various tests on the ship and how it behaves in situations listed by some of you.

Right now, from my personal opinion, it seems that the ice cannon doesn't have as drastic an impact as the Ironhelm, which is capable of twoshotting a brig using it with a bombard and +5 powderstones.

A brig with 100 sail scores has no hope of winning against a flagship with 100 sail scores, if it were possible then it would be a bad design, because having at least 6 people on a ship with 100+ sail would be useless if 3 people with 100 sail score can emerge victorious on a brig. Imagine if a cog with a single light ballista could beat a galley or brig, it would be the same comparison made by some here.

It is well known that Sencliff needs a Flagship, a port island made up of pirates who dedicate their time (and their builds) to sailing.
I believe that should have an impact on RP, setting, fame, mechanics.

As for the cannon, chain shots will be implemented in some time and I believe they will have the same effect as the cannon, which means having a huge advantage over flagships by being able to slow them down.

[stoneheart-]

Nobody bat an eyebrow when the Ironhelm got upgraded from a barely-floating galley to a steel-armored battleship with a laser cannon.
Why's the Ark suddenly a topic for conversation now?

amusingly, the Ironhelm also got its "upgrade" because of a developer's character. This did not go unobserved, by the way. Maybe it wasn't a topic of conversation on the forums, but it was definitely noticed.

[Scurvy Cur]

I should probably be clear, I’m a big fan of all the rp respecters out there. And if the determination by the team is that there will be greater support going forward for module changes based on player rp, then I for one welcome our new inventor rp overlords.

I’m simply looking to clarify whether this is, as SK seems to imply, nothing more than a reaction to rp, and something that anyone can do by RPing the development of a new module feature, for example, a ship weapon, for long enough, or if this is, as XXX and blaze seem to be indicating, a balance change to make the Ark a flagship+ naval pvp threat, built to outperform settlement flagships in a side by side comparison, because it has been determined by the team at large that the pirate faction ought to do so.

[Kythana]

So devs can now just play in factions/groups and create things for them?

I thought that there was an attempt at transparency here, given that devs aren't allow to play classes they're working on.

Apparently not.

[-XXX-]

a balance change to make the Ark a flagship+ naval pvp threat, built to outperform settlement flagships in a side by side comparison

That assumption would be a hyperbole. Both the Tempest and the Leviathan are much faster than the Ark.
The ice cannon's slow effect can merely mitigate the speed difference (unless they consistently keep getting hit by it - which would indicate a major sail score difference) and it's DPS is too minor to play any decisive role during 1v1 flagship battles.
Keep in mind that variance is still the most important factor during ship battles - a bombard crit (around 50 dmg) can strongly tip the scales when the ships are evenly matched. Having then the option to deal 3 extra damage on a very long cooldown doesn't really seem like battle defining trait here, does it?

It'd be akin to complaining that somebody can never beat an opponent who uses a +1 temp essence that they themselves don't have availabe at the time.
But a mention of the guy who's getting an extra APR every other round by comparison gets dismissed as whataboutism...

[helitron]

Just to clarify. The Wailing Maiden (aka Lost Ark) was released as a full blown flagship with 6 sail slots. At the time, there were not many sailing crews/builds around and all ships were suffering from not having enough sailors to fill all slots. So the decision was made to de-grade it to a Galleon (reduce to 5 sailors and reduce HP/hull DR). Now, the upgrade to flagship was reverting it to its original and intended condition.

Also the Ironhelm, once it was converted to an Ironclad, it was still a Brigantine! The users asked to upgrade it to a Galleon/Flagship - and nobody complained about it. Not even talking about the arcane cannon.

[woke moralist]

Just to clarify. The Wailing Maiden (aka Lost Ark) was released as a full blown flagship with 6 sail slots. At the time, there were not many sailing crews/builds around and all ships were suffering from not having enough sailors to fill all slots. So the decision was made to de-grade it to a Galleon (reduce to 5 sailors and reduce HP/hull DR). Now, the upgrade to flagship was reverting it to its original and intended condition.

so this change also wasn't announced? and if that's the case, then it hasn't just been upgraded to a flagship - it's now got all the boons of a flagship with the addition of a unique weapon. this just really isn't fair.

[LurkingShadow]

yeah, it was roleplayed. the whole thing was inspired ICly by the ark getting nearly sunk a dozen times even while staffing 100 sail and +5 ammunition. versus the Sea Leopard it seems strong, but the Ark was regularly getting 2v1'd by flagships, which drove the characters involved with the crew to seek upgrades.

the ice cannon was an actual fixture that was developed over a number of years.

I’m just curious if this indicates that player driven super weapon research will now receive broad brush mechanical support, or whether this is a one off thing?

Will private groups be able to research upgrades for non settlement vessels, since the Ark isn’t one either?

I have ideas and I am definitely willing to emote with friends for a year to add them to the ships I can use.

Can we just sneak on a ship with barrels of powder and blow it up? Cause one of my chars said she would do this to her enemies. Pandoras Box need to be closed for a reason.

EDIT: To me, Pirates should always be underwhelming compared to settlements with real navies. They are pirates, not navies. Soon as a nation decided to handle them, pirates bite the dust historically.

[ClockworkRed]

As I understood there were two changes. The ice weapon and upgrade of the Ark from Galleon 5 sailors to Flagship 6 sailors. Not sure how the base stats were adopted.

Even though I do sail sometimes on the Ark I understand the OP. The sea area is not that large. When the Ark is active and hunting for PC ships during your sailing time, you basically might have very little chance to hide or escape on a smaller ship. It seems possible as was reported, but the question is how much harder it is now and if it prevents you from being able to explore outher quadrants. Additionally many of the quirks of the sailing system, which experienced Captains could use to hide their ship, are now patched, making sailing more dangerous.

Edit: As was said, the ice cannon ain't help much against flagships but the Brigs might have a hard time to outrun the Ark.

[MissEvelyn]

If Arelith wants to go against its reputation of showing favoritism towards "friends of dm/dev players", then maybe adding upgrades to something that mechanically benefits one side only is not the way to go about it?

Like a few others, I also don't have any stake in the sailing game, but I'm invested in the server enough to care that our reputation isn't further tarnished.

Unannounced wilderness and dungeon releases, on the other hand, I very much welcome, as they benefit everyone and not just one side. Plus it makes re-exploring Arelith more interesting and fun.

[Zaphiel]

As a former pirate player, Wailing Maiden (aka Lost Ark) being converted to flagship was a needed change and is welcome. However, adding a unique cannon seems unjustified to me (mechanics wise) when combined with the flagship change. I also agree that these kinds of mechanical changes should be announced.