Assassin Contracts: Timers & Moonlighting?

[Choofed]

Hey there,

I've been noticing with assassins we're sort of seeing a situation where contracts are only being placed perhaps 15, to 30 minutes before the hit takes place and only with small amounts of gold. The immediate follow up is the contractor who takes it gets paid a large stipend for their services privately.

This feels a bit off. Ideally contracts should be accessible for all guild members, and the actual handler of the money should be the guild specifically. We shouldn't have private payments happening, essentially moonlighting the guilds services.

To make this construtive, I had some ideas that perhaps there should be a few hour or even a day delay before a contract goes live so that every guild member can have an equal shot at going for the reward. And the guild should also clamp down on moonlighting, it wouldn't be hard for the DMs to investigate individual hits just to make sure there isn't a overwhelming bypass of the guild its self.

These are just thoughts here, but the current state of 100k to 200k thrown down on a whim in short duration hits and not a properly paid out high value bounty means that it's only appealing to very select guild members who are in with the contract placer, instead of widely available to everyone with a class token.

[BlankStare16]

Even better than adding a delay before the contract goes live would be adding a 1-3 day delay before the target is able to pay off the contract. I suspect that the majority of the reason people are presently trying to do an end-run around the Guild is to gain a chance to get a contract off on targets who are wealthier than themselves and can thus pay off even large contracts with impunity.

[Eyeliner]

Or maybe... remove the possibility of paying to cancel a contract. At the very least settlement leaders shouldn't be able to... if you have a position like that you should have enough people around to protect you.

[Svrtr]

Its definitely cheesy, and would agree with this change on the condition that assassins who are hired by cities to tell their settlement leads about contracts are forbidden and kicked out of the guild if they out contracts for their settlement leader to them.

The paying for a contracts 30 minutes before a hit seems to be a symptom of assassins who work for settlements just to be informants for said settlement

[Yvesza]

People being paid outside of the guild and giving the guild a tiny fraction of the actual cut sounds... Really bad? Assassins by nature are political and I can totally see why they'd be super involved in settlements, cutting them out of that just seems like it'd detract from roleplay rather than add to it.

With that said I think the guild in general just wants a fresh coat of paint, it's got a slew of weird issues that have been slowly adressed over time but it needs a bit of thought into a few areas.

People can just wander in and check their bounty, then pay it off immediately if they feel like it. They can check as often as they like and there's really no risk unless there's an actual bounty on their head, which they'll quickly discover. It leads to gamey behaviour and situations where an assassin might even kill a mark, except that mark paid off their bounty a few hours ago.

I really think that once a bounty has been paid, there should be a 'processing period' in which the bounty is still live and claimable but with a definitive deadline as to when it'll be closed.

I also think the minimum contract should be higher on settlement leaders, given the nature of what it accomplishes.

[DM Monkey]

It isn’t hard to investigate this, and it also really doesn’t happen as often as people spread stories that it does.

[silverpheonix]

From an outsiders view to the assassination system, it strikes me as more of a symptom of the curious habit of characters suddenly vanishing for a month once the contract is placed. Not that it should be the new meta, but I think it should be a valid strategy of "place the contract, then signal the team" (not talking about people getting paid under the table here) to deal with PCs that absolutely have the resources to either vanish or become exceptionally well guarded at a moment's notice. Why on earth would you let a VIP target have a week's notice to prepare for an attempt on their life? Besides sadism.

Granted, I've never had/placed a contract so maybe my impression is wrong.

Edit: I didn't see the other topic had been locked

[D4wN]

I think there's a lot that can be improved about the assassin system. I don't think you should be able to place a contract and then wait for someone to log in for example to claim it. Perhaps a waiting period after a contract is placed before you can claim it (call it processing time or whatever). I also don't think you should be able to just wait for someone with a large group of non-Guild members to gank someone and then have 1 assassin in the group claiming the bounty.

Equally I'm totally not opposed for there being a waiting period before a contract can be paid off for example. I think the amount for settlement leaders to pay off a contract is already very steep and sufficient. But having a timer on the contract before you can pay it off seems more than fair.

Basically, allow the target time enough to know there is a contract on them so they can take precautions (if they don't check the guild regularly, that's on them) and allow the Guild members enough time to collect the bounty or come up with a plan to collect it / make an attempt. Perhaps also just extend the time a bounty is active before it expires. I would not be opposed to that either. It can take a long time to come up with a plan to have someone assassinated, especially if they are a settlement leader.

It needs to be fair and right now it's not.

[Amnesy]

A couple of ideas,

After the contract is placed there is a time window where Assassins can bid on the contract, if no bid is placed within X time it is first come first serve to claim (this time should be no bigger than a half or a third of the election time).

After the contract is claimed, based on the bounty size:

• If a certain threshold is crossed: the bounty can't be paid out immediately (the lock for the bailout is longer the higher the bounty size is), and the lifetime of the contract increases as well.
• If a certain threshold is crossed: and the bounty is paid out by the wanted target, there is a period where another bounty cannot be placed on the target unless it is of (noticeable) higher value than the previous one.
• If it is not already the case, make the subject of assassination harvestable only if the PC, before death, had been subjected to the 'Assassinate' ability of the Assassin that holds the right to execute the contract.

[Diegovog]

I think there's a lot that can be improved about the assassin system. I don't think you should be able to place a contract and then wait for someone to log in for example to claim it. Perhaps a waiting period after a contract is placed before you can claim it (call it processing time or whatever). I also don't think you should be able to just wait for someone with a large group of non-Guild members to gank someone and then have 1 assassin in the group claiming the bounty.

Equally I'm totally not opposed for there being a waiting period before a contract can be paid off for example. I think the amount for settlement leaders to pay off a contract is already very steep and sufficient. But having a timer on the contract before you can pay it off seems more than fair.

Basically, allow the target time enough to know there is a contract on them so they can take precautions (if they don't check the guild regularly, that's on them) and allow the Guild members enough time to collect the bounty or come up with a plan to collect it / make an attempt. Perhaps also just extend the time a bounty is active before it expires. I would not be opposed to that either. It can take a long time to come up with a plan to have someone assassinated, especially if they are a settlement leader.

It needs to be fair and right now it's not.

I agree.

And extending is really necessary because some people do go very inactive after a bounty.

A couple of ideas,

After the contract is placed there is a time window where Assassins can bid on the contract, if no bid is placed within X time it is first come first serve to claim (this time should be no bigger than a half or a third of the election time).

After the contract is claimed, based on the bounty size:

• If a certain threshold is crossed: the bounty can't be paid out immediately (the lock for the bailout is longer the higher the bounty size is), and the lifetime of the contract increases as well.
• If a certain threshold is crossed: and the bounty is paid out by the wanted target, there is a period where another bounty cannot be placed on the target unless it is of (noticeable) higher value than the previous one.
• If it is not already the case, make the subject of assassination harvestable only if the PC, before death, had been subjected to the 'Assassinate' ability of the Assassin that holds the right to execute the contract.

Assassins shouldn't bid on anything. It's already a huge risk for them to assassinate and a lot of gold goes into prep. And you're simply locking other assassins to be able to assassinate and making the Guild waay too ineffective.

[Amateur Hour]

Possibly a terrible idea, but I'll float it anyway.

It seems (based on hearsay, I have never ICly interacted with the assassin system) like the current system works like this:

1. Barry Badguy places a 1 million gold bounty on Tabby Target through the guild. Barry Badguy's name is not accessible at all unless there were witnesses/scrying/etc. (Question: does this expire if no one touches it?)

2. From that second on, any assassin can see that there is a 1 million gold bounty on Tabby if they go to the guild, alongside any other bounties.

3. Alice Assassin can take the contract immediately. At that point, no other assassin can take the contract.

4. If Tabby goes to the guild, Tabby can see that there is a bounty placed on them at the guild but can't see any other bounties. Tabby can immediately pay off the bounty by paying 2 million to the guild, or 3 million if she's a settlement leader.

What would happen if the bounties were not:

1 million coin bounty on Tabby Target.

But rather:

A 1 million coin bounty on a female Strongheart halfling, pretty average around the waist. She looks nimble. Tall height. (i.e. basically the whole Investigate description.)

...with the name revealed after the bounty is taken?

[Edens_Fall]

I think there's a lot that can be improved about the assassin system. I don't think you should be able to place a contract and then wait for someone to log in for example to claim it. Perhaps a waiting period after a contract is placed before you can claim it (call it processing time or whatever). I also don't think you should be able to just wait for someone with a large group of non-Guild members to gank someone and then have 1 assassin in the group claiming the bounty.

Equally I'm totally not opposed for there being a waiting period before a contract can be paid off for example. I think the amount for settlement leaders to pay off a contract is already very steep and sufficient. But having a timer on the contract before you can pay it off seems more than fair.

Basically, allow the target time enough to know there is a contract on them so they can take precautions (if they don't check the guild regularly, that's on them) and allow the Guild members enough time to collect the bounty or come up with a plan to collect it / make an attempt. Perhaps also just extend the time a bounty is active before it expires. I would not be opposed to that either. It can take a long time to come up with a plan to have someone assassinated, especially if they are a settlement leader.

It needs to be fair and right now it's not.

I agree; these seem like valid improvements to the system at large. There is not really much more I can say on the topic that this post doesn't already cover concerning current perceived issues with the guild. For clarity's sake, I'll state I've never had an assassin PC, though I have been subject to a kill from time to time. The experience can range from great to disheartening depending on the RP one gets from their killers. I found it a rather mixed bag overall.

Editied for spelling, naturally.

[Xarge VI]

I'm worried some kind of ruling there might lock away some cool concepts. Years ago I had great time playing an assassin who was absolutely trash in a fight. (20something assasin 3 wizard, int based. You rarely reached 30 level in those days)

But rather than fighting his targets himself his expertise was in manipulating information and interactions to lead his marks in to deadly situations or just infiltration, stalking and then hiring a better fighter to do the actual fighting before collecting the paycheck.

Obviously the difficult thing with that style was that most bounties were collected before his work was done (If I recall right you couldn't pay bounties off those days) so it was much better when he was able to get private bounties while of course paying the tithe to the guild.

Discouraging the use of outsourced violence and private contracts in my opinion would take away a possibility of others playing these concepts that create quite a bit roleplay by how they operate.

Of course, as with every kind of rp- It can be done well or horribly.

[D4wN]

I'm worried some kind of ruling there might lock away some cool concepts. Years ago I had great time playing an assassin who was absolutely trash in a fight. (20something assasin 3 wizard, int based. You rarely reached 30 level in those days)

But rather than fighting his targets himself his expertise was in manipulating information and interactions to lead his marks in to deadly situations or just infiltration, stalking and then hiring a better fighter to do the actual fighting before collecting the paycheck.

Obviously the difficult thing with that style was that most bounties were collected before his work was done (If I recall right you couldn't pay bounties off those days) so it was much better when he was able to get private bounties while of course paying the tithe to the guild.

Discouraging the use of outsourced violence and private contracts in my opinion would take away a possibility of others playing these concepts that create quite a bit roleplay by how they operate.

Of course, as with every kind of rp- It can be done well or horribly.

There's something to say for that yes. It all depends how it's done. Being ganked by a group of people and then have a bounty collected feels pretty poor form. But I think a lot of Assassins also tend to rush the kills because contracts are either paid off super quick or simply expire. 1 RL month I feel just isn't enough time for most assassins to do cool infiltration type RP and trying to rush it then often leads to poor experiences overall.

[A Digital Vagrant]

There's something to say for that yes. It all depends how it's done. Being ganked by a group of people and then have a bounty collected feels pretty poor form. But I think a lot of Assassins also tend to rush the kills because contracts are either paid off super quick or simply expire. 1 RL month I feel just isn't enough time for most assassins to do cool infiltration type RP and trying to rush it then often leads to poor experiences overall.

The current 'settlement pet assassin' feels like a much more poor form situation imo, but a re-appraisal of the rules around being assassins is needed (and DM oversight, potentially, but I know that less is more) - especially regarding their interactions with settlements!

[D4wN]

I don’t think it’s that that bad nor do I know that this is true. There have been plenty of settlement leader assassinations and it takes 5 minutes to check on a contract. So I don’t really think that’s the greater issue.

[Aeryeris]

Given there have been at least four (4) successful settlement leader assassinations in the last half year, I would say the settlement pet assassin thing is quite overstated.

I have access to asssassins who could and would give me a list of active contracts. But for my character's personal safety it changes nothing. During times of high tension I simply visit the guild NPC multiple times per day. It is a very quick walk from a portal, the risk can be minimized and is definitely lesser than talking to assassins face to face for information.

I don't think having an assassin on hand for information is a game changer. Should it be a thing? I don't know nor really care one way or the other. But it would change very little in how quickly high profile characters learn of an active bounty on them.

[Diegovog]

I have access to asssassins who could and would give me a list of active contracts. But for my character's personal safety it changes nothing.

The fact that you have access to multiple assassins, that they give you a list of active contracts and that you don't think this is a big deal is a perfect anecdote of how silly this has become. Might sound too dramatic, but the contracts are almost public by now.
I wonder how many of these assassins actually do foot work and assassinate.

As a side note, on the mentioned problem of metagaming to the "death attack". Why not modify the class to have death attack only on the first sneak attack level (lvl 1) so they can still paralyze and then on the 3rd+ level, change it sneak attack (lvl 3+), that way instead of showing "death attack" it will show "sneak attack". So it's a very small window that there can be metagame and the paralyze gimmick remains intact because it's still there.
Something like this:
Lvl - Death Attack - Sneak Attack
1 - 1d6 - 0
2 - 1d6 - 0
3 - 1d6 - 1d6
4 - 1d6 - 1d6
5 - 1d6 - 2d6
and so on...

For more immediate solution if anyone is having trouble with metagame, I found out that Improved Sneak Attack helps conceal the "Death Attack" message as it will show all attacks being "Sneak Attack"

[In Sorrow We Trust]

death attack is still hard coded but probably a tlk update could change it

[Curve]

I have played two assassins, one when the system went in and one more recently. I'll admit that the guild has some inborn issues that have others have laid out. That said, the biggest problem that I have seen is that players interact with the guild like another system to be min-maxed rather than a tool for role-play.

[Bazelgeuse]

death attack is still hard coded but probably a tlk update could change it

Swap "Sneak Attack" for "Death Attack" and vise versa. Let's see how many people get accused of being an assassin after that.

[Kythana]

That said, the biggest problem that I have seen is that players interact with the guild like another system to be min-maxed rather than a tool for role-play.

That's what it is though. The primary reason someone is interacting with the guild is for the mechanical gain. After all, what roleplay are you getting out of it? You place the anonymous contract, and- That's it. You have finished your side of the roleplay. The next part comes with the death of the target, which may or may not even happen depending on payoffs.

If you want to actually roleplay, which includes: discretely finding a killer, negotiating terms, giving them info and opportunity, the better bet is going to be finding a group/player and directly interacting with them.

[D4wN]

I would love it if it was more two-sides / collaborative yeah. Like the ability to conduct a proper investigation, or maybe even bribe or persuade the Guild either through skills or gold to find out who placed the contract. I agree, it's very much a mechanical tool that doesn't create much in the form of a 2 sided story.