Surface Evil Needs Another Home

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Ruzuke
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Ruzuke » Fri Feb 16, 2024 8:50 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:42 pm

IMO even if we had an overtly evil version of Cordor, it'd likely be empty most of the time.

Between Dis, Sencliff and Shadovar there's already enough places for evil characters to exist, gather or find NPC services.
Thing is, these are hubs that one would also expect to find PC interaction and RP in, but that doesn't really happen so much because of the established "condemnation for association" RP culture.
Even neutral and secretly evil characters often shy away from (non-hostile) interactions with other seedy characters out of fear of being framed as evil collaborators - this then frequently pushes the nature of conflicts further into MOBA territory.

For the exact reasons you mentioned I believe it would be filled with people who want to play evil characters. Dis, Sencliff, and Shadovar are nice but evil characters cannot be seen associated with the well known evil. Otherwise they risk being branded evil and cast out of Cordor, Bendir, Myon, and Guldorand. Summoning undead and fiends outside of Guldorand will still get characters into trouble as will be near characters who do so.

Having a place which says: No summoning evil in our city, but outside of it we don't care will allow my warlock to do warlock things without being kicked out of his home. Then even if he is branded evil and kicked out of Bendir, Myon, Guldorand, and Shadovar he has a home he could go back into and RP.


BurntGnome
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by BurntGnome » Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:27 pm

I think the best solution is to just rebuild Wharftown as a faction base, like how Westcliff/Radiant is now treated. Npc houses surrounding a Logjam/Axehold style building, with a stack of quarters that can be used as faction headquarters for various groups with one group managing access, much in the way how the Winter Guard and the Skull Crag Rangers shared it. Wharftown does not need to be a full on settlement, it just needs to be able to support groups who want to base out of it. This will not impact hub population much, if any, but give people space to do RP.


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by perseid » Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:25 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:43 am

I'll admit it: I'm about to get piled on. There's gonna be a lot of disagreement here. I've had too much to drink and I feel like making an unpopular opinion thread.

Sencliff, while awesome in its own way, is IMO far from adequate as a headquarters for team evil on the surface. The system on Sencliff rewards a very high sail skill and land pirate is very much something that is hard to put together. I've seen the popular wisdom of "Be the change you'd like to see" slam head first into powerful in-game incentives too many times to entertain it any further.

Your typical good player in Skal has lots of options. He can join the radiant heart or become involved in politics or law enforcement on probably 75% of the server's land mass. Your typical evil player on Skal has two options: Pre-arrange for epic skill focus in Skal and accept a mostly conflict free life of circular sailing against NPC mobs or take a slave collar.

Sailing is fantastic in its own way and the hub can be a lot of fun, but it feels like bad guys are being redirected to remote corners of the game world where it's hard to generate conflict without a rare slave harvest or DM approved raid. I think we need some kind of bandit camp, necromancer friendly settlement or something in that vein. Preferably in a higher level area to reduce incidents and accusations of real or imagined griefing.

It feels like a full time job finding people interested in pillage and plunder and RP based antagonism. Sailing in circles and talking about shop profits with underdark schemers does very little to build tension and create panic on the surface. Once you leave Skal, being the bad guy feels sad and boring.

I anticipate massive disagreement but I'm a big boy and I can take it. :(

I might be the weird one here, but I think people overfocus on Sencliff as a pirate haven. That's obviously the mechanical focus and what a lot of its design leans towards, but if you actually stroll around Sencliff you'll find it's also a haven for non-sailors including hedgemages, people on the run from the law, and just generally nefarious individuals.


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Waldo52
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Feb 18, 2024 4:49 am

As the OP I feel pretty bad about ducking out of my own thread for several days. Work got in the way, and by now there's too much to respond to so I'll address some of the things I've read that caught my attention.

The idea of utilizing Dis and the Shadow plane as new hubs for evil do not strike me as particularly helpful. The server already supports this kind of deeply isolated evil RP extremely well with Sencliff and the underdark server. If you want a remote and relatively safe space to explore evil RP with other evil characters Arelith has you covered pretty well.

Suggestions like bringing back Wharftown and evil-ing Guldorand sound much nicer to me. Wharftown might be a little problematic because this would undermine the hard work of the actual players who led the storyline of its destruction. Guldorand is apparently joined to the hip to Myon, which is a problem there. But in general I would support either of these, the use of any other existing settlements like the logging camp, or the creation of a small new settlement.

Another debate I run into repeatedly is weather evil characters need a hive of scum and villainy where zombies and demons run free or if we need a more subdued area for shady characters. In this one regard I think Sencliff is actually an excellent model. The one rule for entry is that you can't have a good alignment, but players have to sort these morals out for themselves. I have encountered several pirates who will actively shun necromancers, although there's a player enforced rule against actually attacking fellow ink. The fact that people can't agree on how evil Sencliff is supposed to be could be seen as a bug, but I see it as a feature. So the "what degree of depravity should be accepted?" question can be solved organically through the emergence of a local player base and need not ever be neatly resolved.

I would also add that while the sailing system does sabotage good/evil interactions by isolating evil players, a similar system where evil land based characters could set up a road for robbery would be hilarious. Once a road is declared as being under attack, Instead of random Cordorian vessels, NPC town guard patrols or NPC travelers could appear who ask about your business and go hostile when you say you're out plundering.

A land-robbery mode would solve a few problems:

It would make land robbery more fun, especially in less trafficked high level areas. A
If you set your ambush and don't find any player characters to engage with for robbery RP for literal hours, you still have a pirate style experience with XP and gold from random encounters robbing travelers and law enforcers. This would actually incentivize bandit role play mechanically.

Killing random NPC travelers and guards for their gold would be an evil act, and finding out that an area was currently occupied by bandits would facilitate opportunities for good versus evil role play when locals get wind of brigands in the area.

I realize that placing an elaborate suggestion in a feedback thread is frowned upon, but it's an objectively amazing idea so there's that. Anyway, apologies for the digression. The main point remains: there's actually no place to be a prolific naughty boy without sailing in circles or otherwise hiding from conflict with other players. This is not just a problem of server culture or lack of initiative, Arelith just makes it a virtual impossibility through basic geography and in-game incentives or lack thereof.


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Dr. B
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Dr. B » Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:24 pm

Hazard wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:31 pm

you'd atleast have groups of players constantly going there to attack it themselves. It'd need to have some beefy defenses, or something.

I may be out of the loop, but you need DM authorization to attack a settlement, no?


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Kuma » Sun Feb 18, 2024 3:17 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 4:49 am

Wharftown might be a little problematic because this would undermine the hard work of the actual players who led the storyline of its destruction.

no. no that one's fine. in fact i quite like that. bring wharftown back. the players arent an issue there. not at all.

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Waldo52
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Feb 18, 2024 4:54 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:24 pm
Hazard wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:31 pm

you'd atleast have groups of players constantly going there to attack it themselves. It'd need to have some beefy defenses, or something.

I may be out of the loop, but you need DM authorization to attack a settlement, no?

I think that's still the case, but if the place could only survive because DMs agreed to say "no" all the time that would be a problem because it would be very meta. It would kind of be a plot hole.

I agree that we would need unusually beefy defenses. Narrow passes, murder holes, unusually strong NPC guards who tell non-evils to leave and can hostile them after ten seconds, a magical gate that fails once per full moon, I don't know. It would probably need something "extra". But it's not impossible in principle.


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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:46 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 4:54 pm
Dr. B wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:24 pm
Hazard wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:31 pm

you'd atleast have groups of players constantly going there to attack it themselves. It'd need to have some beefy defenses, or something.

I may be out of the loop, but you need DM authorization to attack a settlement, no?

I think that's still the case, but if the place could only survive because DMs agreed to say "no" all the time that would be a problem because it would be very meta. It would kind of be a plot hole.

I agree that we would need unusually beefy defenses. Narrow passes, murder holes, unusually strong NPC guards who tell non-evils to leave and can hostile them after ten seconds, a magical gate that fails once per full moon, I don't know. It would probably need something "extra". But it's not impossible in principle.

This kinda leads to a problem I mentioned earlier though doesn't it?

Just look at this thread

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=44782

The problem then would be that there would be complaints that there are guys attacking people in the wilds, dragging them away for rp in their highly defensive settlment, and everyone else gets frustrated because they can't strike back.

This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:02 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:46 pm

The problem then would be that there would be complaints that there are guys attacking people in the wilds, dragging them away for rp in their highly defensive settlment, and everyone else gets frustrated because they can't strike back.

I actually think pvp in the wilds is the best type of pvp on so many levels.

1) it doesn't disrupt the setting.

2) its random more often than not, so that means no side stacking. You got who you got with you, win lose or draw.

3) It makes people think twice about running around alone spamming runic dungeons or whatever, and forces people back into a group mentality.

4) it leads to more interesting encounters with a larger myriad of outcomes, because more often than not no one is there with the intent of adding kill notches to their sword or whatever.

Now that's not to say that there aren't pitfalls, but most of them are already accounted for in the rules because pvp in the wilds is already allowed. But I don't think the inability to "strike back right now" is one of them. I understand the "capture" circumstance, but not only does the captee have to agree to go that route its by at least social rule that the captors give them an out for escape. It doesn't need to be "you stole one of ours and now we have to march in and save them". In fact, that sort of storytelling rarely makes any sense anyways. And again, how long and how deep the captee wants to let it go is entirely up to them, they can always request that the bad guys just kill them and respawn if it's not working for them.


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Waldo52
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:23 pm

Grumpy Cat, while I really like that a member of the DM/Development/Boss team is taking this thread seriously and is actively posting, and I've really enjoyed the questions/commentary you've been offering I actually agree with Babylon System here. The problem you're describing sounds pretty barbaric and dare I say... medieval? It's strikes me as kind of setting appropriate.

Brigands and evil-doers on the road is a classic example of a historical and fantasy world problem that Arelith makes almost impossible after Skal content ends. It feels like the vast majority of good/evil conflict on the servers is something that has to be scheduled in advance and mutually consented to, if it's even occuring.

You bring up valid points about the bad things that could potentially happen with Good v bad conflict, but I'd argue that what's currently happening in this regard is already pretty bad (ie: almost nothing).

If people get killed or abducted by bad guys, that's just the setting. Bounties, lawman and vigilante justice and prisoner rescue are all compelling aspects of the server and giving active baddies a home would only make them more compelling.


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:29 pm

Oh to be clear, I've ABSOLUTLY no problem with attacks in the wild, I think that's fine.

I don't even personally have a huge problem with the idea of not being able to recover people after. I try, personally, to be as chill about these things as possible. That feeling of powerlessness is irritating sure, but ultimatly you have to take a breath, get over it, and respect players abilities to tell stories. It's why I don't mind - even like - the Slave system. It helps do that.

But I wanted to put this here to make clear that this is a complaint that will arise, and we need to be ready for it and understand that it's going to happen and ask ourselves... are we ok with that?

And if the majority of us are? Great. Lets do it. I know I am personally. But it's good to bring these issues to light so we can make decisions with eyes open.

This too shall pass.

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Waldo52
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:29 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:29 pm

ABSOLUTLY

I agree with everything you said. Especially this. I will spell it just like you going forward, full caps and all.


Wethrinea
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Wethrinea » Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:53 am

As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, I think the main problem is the lack of a "legitimate evil polity" to drive home the point that evil exists and can't be eradicated by player actions.

By this I do not mean an Andunor style surface settlement where "everything goes", or Sencliff which is a free haven for criminals, as a such a place would have no legitimacy in the eyes of the rest of the island.

This would by necessity mean an LE type of polity which does have a recognized government and territory protected by the same plot armour as other settlements enjoy. The difference would be that it's laws would be much more permissive of evil acts. Not murderous chaos, but things like the study of necromancy, fiend summoning, trade in goods that are illegal elsewhere etc.

But it would need laws. Corrupted, full of loopholes for the rich and well connected, bent and twisted to suit the needs and ambitions of the incumbents and to suppress the masses, to serve as a veneer of legitimacy.

Magic aside, there are plenty of examples like this in the real world one could take inspiration from. Polities that one have to engage with because they are there, not because you like them.

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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Joe46 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:15 am

Wethrinea wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:53 am

As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, I think the main problem is the lack of a "legitimate evil polity" to drive home the point that evil exists and can't be eradicated by player actions.

This would by necessity mean an LE type of polity which does have a recognized government and territory protected by the same plot armour as other settlements enjoy.

But it would need laws. Corrupted, full of loopholes for the rich and well connected, bent and twisted to suit the needs and ambitions of the incumbents and to suppress the masses, to serve as a veneer of legitimacy.

Magic aside, there are plenty of examples like this in the real world one could take inspiration from. Polities that one have to engage with because they are there, not because you like them.

Uhh... You mean Cordor? Yes, I think you mean Cordor, yes Cordor exists

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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Wethrinea » Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:35 am

While Cordor most certainly has the potential to be the legitimate evil polity, it is not there today. If King Edward decreed that the city is open to "advances in the science and understanding of undeath and extra-planar relations, as well as inventive mercantile practices", then I think necromancers, warlocks/other fiend summoners, enterprising crooks and nefarious plotters would have a place to be on the surface that would not be immediately targeted for attacks by "team good".

It would, while appalling to many characters, be an evil polity that they would have to learn to live with. And I think that would be healthy to both server culture and nuanced RP in general.

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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Irongron » Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:32 pm

I've avoided replying directly to this thread for a while, mainly because I genuinely dislike the notion of 'team good' and 'team evil' and in fact think it harmful to setting & gameplay. I absolutely won't build towards it. Evil should be in competition with itself, and ideally most characters will hold aspects of both good and evil within themselves, and tell a story a good deal more nuanced than 'forces of light and darkness' nonsense.

I've played in Sencliff lately, and it's actually nice to see this in action. It's not full of an all-black snarky edge crowd then routinely goes looking to kill for the sake of it. I aimed for a somewhat anarchist anti-establishment vibe there, and for the most part this works quite well.

What I've zero interest in having on surface is a town where zombies stand around on the street, cartoon villains sneer at each other, and the main pass time is for level 30 gank squads to seek conflict for its own sake, devoid of any narrative or ambition. I removed the war system for this reason, and it was a large part that Wharftown was destroyed after many failed attempts to intervene and curtail the mindless PvP that originated there. Heck, Wharftown isn't even designed as an 'evil' settlement, and seeing it become such a place just undermined it.

I'm certainly not against having Wharftown return from the Shadow Plane, in fact the ground work has been laid for that, but the notion that it might return how it was in the months before its removal leave me inclined to let it rest in peace.

If one really wants to play 'absolute' evil, then sure - go to Dis.


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Choofed
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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Choofed » Tue Feb 20, 2024 1:53 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:32 pm

I've avoided replying directly to this thread for a while, mainly because I genuinely dislike the notion of 'team good' and 'team evil' and in fact think it harmful to setting & gameplay. I absolutely won't build towards it. Evil should be in competition with itself, and ideally most characters will hold aspects of both good and evil within themselves, and tell a story a good deal more nuanced than 'forces of light and darkness' nonsense.

I've played in Sencliff lately, and it's actually nice to see this in action. It's not full of an all-black snarky edge crowd then routinely goes looking to kill for the sake of it. I aimed for a somewhat anarchist anti-establishment vibe there, and for the most part this works quite well.

What I've zero interest in having on surface is a town where zombies stand around on the street, cartoon villains sneer at each other, and the main pass time is for level 30 gank squads to seek conflict for its own sake, devoid of any narrative or ambition. I removed the war system for this reason, and it was a large part that Wharftown was destroyed after many failed attempts to intervene and curtail the mindless PvP that originated there. Heck, Wharftown isn't even designed as an 'evil' settlement, and seeing it become such a place just undermined it.

I'm certainly not against having Wharftown return from the Shadow Plane, in fact the ground work has been laid for that, but the notion that it might return how it was in the months before its removal leave me inclined to let it rest in peace.

If one really wants to play 'absolute' evil, then sure - go to Dis.

I would say that Sencliff often has a little Andunor vibe with how intertwined it currently is with Andunor. I've seen my fair share of just undead hanging around the docks, and so on.

Conceptually I think Guldorand could be the true home for the nuanced less-establishment evil that a lot of people want. Thieves guilds and such, but by design having it tied at the hip with Myon has strangled it's ability to prosper in that direction because they have a militant divinely ordained people who have a very clear cultural direction from their gods.

I do believe for Guldorand to really come into it's own, and frankly propser into the largest city in the server, detaching it from Myon would be wise.


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by TheDoctor » Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:55 pm

Choofed wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2024 1:53 pm

Conceptually I think Guldorand could be the true home for the nuanced less-establishment evil that a lot of people want. Thieves guilds and such, but by design having it tied at the hip with Myon has strangled it's ability to prosper in that direction because they have a militant divinely ordained people who have a very clear cultural direction from their gods.

I do believe for Guldorand to really come into it's own, and frankly propser into the largest city in the server, detaching it from Myon would be wise.

There are some very evil type groups that have a very firm hold in Guldorland. Not gonna rattle them off but if you take a walk in Guldy or just look at some map pins you see it.


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by -XXX- » Tue Feb 20, 2024 3:24 pm

Myon being part of Guldorand sets the limits on how questionable or corrupt the city and its officials can get - once they cross a certain line, PvP Ragnarok follows (this is tried and tested = not just a hypothesis).

Sencliff having close ties to Andunor - as it stands right now, this is simply a consequence of toon distribution.
IG establishment is framed by the setting as leaning toward order and good, so good toons + neutral* toons usually band together to present a united front defending the IG establishment.
That sort of leaves all the toons that oppose it to stick together out of necessity to avoid getting overwhelmed by sheer numbers.


*plz note how good toons often manage to bully neutral toons into siding with them - something i hinted at earlier in the thread


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Feb 20, 2024 5:16 pm

"Sencliff allying with Andunor is literally a consequence of how the settlements have treated Sencliff" is a pretty common thing I hear in game


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Xerah » Tue Feb 20, 2024 5:44 pm

TheDoctor wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:55 pm

There are some very evil type groups that have a very firm hold in Guldorland. Not gonna rattle them off but if you take a walk in Guldy or just look at some map pins you see it.

Those have plot armour and are rarely actioned against. We've always been told that NPCs are backdrop and we shouldn't be expected to get DM involvement on them. This makes sense, so players naturally move towards engaging with PCs (who don't have that protection).

It would be great if Myon could be detached from Guldorand.

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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Azensor » Tue Feb 20, 2024 5:55 pm

Couldnt you just give sibayad the shadovar treatment?
It already has open slavery, its already far enough away from the other settlements to not really 'rub' against them to much.
Just give it some guards that have a similar script to the shadovar ones.


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by Choofed » Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:11 pm

TheDoctor wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:55 pm

There are some very evil type groups that have a very firm hold in Guldorland. Not gonna rattle them off but if you take a walk in Guldy or just look at some map pins you see it.

Plopping NPC factions down is all nice, but sadly not particularly effective in the day to day of the server. The reality is that player character groups who actually exert day to day control will dictate the flow of RP, and having a transition away a large group of religiously motivated and well armed elves with a history of succesful violence against opposition to their people has spelled disaster for many a group.

I could map in a hundred map pins of the 3000 Dark Knights of Bane, if no one's there to play them, they aren't stopping your getting shot for being in a gang of street rats in the freeport.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2024 5:16 pm

"Sencliff allying with Andunor is literally a consequence of how the settlements have treated Sencliff" is a pretty common thing I hear in game

Sure but realistically by design, being a dread pirate means that you are part of a uniformed organisation (the tats) that commissions bounties on trade vessels while being lawless and being tolerant of a lot of evil actions & practices. Any remotely lawful state, which is to say, every surface settlement is going to take opposition to the harassment of merchant vessels by virtue of the RP in a island nation.

Pirates in character can produce a lot of cope, but the OOC accepted reality is that they are Dread Pirates and they are dreaded because they are quite clearly pointed as a non-lawful non-good entity that kills and steals for profit on the high seas.


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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by -XXX- » Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:44 pm

The setting and its mechanical implementation doesn't really support an alliance between Andunor and Sencliff - many cultural, ideological and religious differences can be found between the two.

BUT

Here's why it's happening:

  • the overwhelming majority of surface characters makes 0 distinction between ink and outcast tag
  • individually Andunor's outnumbered by surface 5 to 1, odds are even worse for Sencliff
  • there are no alternatives for possible alliances - they can either stand together or stand alone (against EVERYBODY else)

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Re: Surface Evil Needs Another Home

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Feb 20, 2024 8:04 pm

Choofed wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:11 pm

Sure but realistically by design, being a dread pirate means that you are part of a uniformed organisation (the tats) that commissions bounties on trade vessels while being lawless and being tolerant of a lot of evil actions & practices. Any remotely lawful state, which is to say, every surface settlement is going to take opposition to the harassment of merchant vessels by virtue of the RP in a island nation.

Pirates in character can produce a lot of cope, but the OOC accepted reality is that they are Dread Pirates and they are dreaded because they are quite clearly pointed as a non-lawful non-good entity that kills and steals for profit on the high seas.

true, but let me tell you something funny:

you can achieve dread pirate status without sinking any non-evil ships; i.e. you can do the required work without ever taking a writ that asks you to go after Cordorians, merchant traffic, etc.

not saying this to justify less hostility towards dreads. it should not be that easy and I think dread should take more work.

my real point is that Sencliff has issues with being "just pirates". very few characters you meet there are classic "sail the sea, reave the ships and leave" types. historically, pirates actually were known to avoid killing sailors on board the ships they raided, because the goal was never to slaughter but to profit. there were some bad pirates, sure, but there are plenty of historical figures who weren't murdermonkeys.

here we're dealing with the pirate fantasy, which opens lots of doors. i don't know how many times I've seen pirates who actively tried to be just as bad if not worse than most monsters/outcasts and should have taken the outcast start instead. this certainly doesn't help with the public opinion of sencliff.

on the other hand, historically I know it has been very common for sencliff to be raided via land in larger numbers than sencliff ever has. sencliff rarely ever has as many people (and people who can fight as opposed to sailing) as the people who come to land to attack them, which has forced them to seek allies. if no one will parlay with pirates, then the only option remaining is the "hang em all" mindset, further perpetuating the cycle of scumbag archetypes


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