Surface "Enslavement" needed

[LurkingShadow]

I'm not opposed to a prison system on the surface, but personally I would take it one step further. Everyone on the raiding side accepts that if they die, it's a permadeath.

Why?

Because I still believe in setting integrity, and a raid from the underdark on the surface is usually the result of months if not years of planning and large groups from teh dark working together (sometimes is just a really strong drow house) when it comes to the forgotten realms. A raid on arelith is usually the result of having a strong group of 5-10 mechanically skilled players ready and willing, taking a portal over, and win lose or draw you get to do it again in a few days when that group is together again and bored.

That's a pretty serious disconnect from one to the other, and I personally think that anything that slows raids down and makes it more of a character end game thing rather than what that character does after leveling up for a few weeks until they get bored with it is a good thing.

I know, that's crazy talk.

Interesting concept but hard to implement and get people to agree to. Raids up and below will be much more gruesome and hard to arrange.

I think that's the point? I'm in agreement wholly with Babylon, mind you. It would add a lot of weight and make people consider if it's worth it or not.

I guess. It woulf be interesting but probably lessen the raids alot aswell. But perhaps for the better?

I do not agree with this, sadly. I also know after a reset, someone in a prison cell will spawn by the exit and not in the cell while a slave can be "forcefully called back".

that shouldn't be happening, locations are saved on log out and reset does a mass log out as part of its process

Weird, must been a hiccup then! I seen it a few times.

[Exordius]

i have always said that captured underdarkers should not be executed when they can be put to much better use as sla... erm as indentured servants. Why waste resources when you can exploit them.

[BurntGnome]

There is no good reason why "good" alignment characters should not be able to collar long term prisoners. Mechanical support for this would be a good thing. There is a very large difference in "slave" and "long-term prisoner". I believe mechanically, it should work the same, but RP'd differently and not barred from property ownership, but the ability to do this should be added. Punishment ultimately ends up being "kill the guy" or "exile the guy" and that's a boring narrative. Long term prisoners, via collars, opens up a more interactive way of dealing with criminals other than "die" or "be removed from the rp hub outright".

Alot of this can be RP'd, sure, but there is far more benefit to the overall roleplay environment by mechanically supporting it. There's very little to no reason to not support it.

[Kythana]

I have a better idea.

Remove slavery.

[Naghast]

For context, i've recently seen a character that had a slave clamp, which marked them as a slave of, and i quote

Slavemaster of Sibayad

So i think the 2 are actually separate in some way and surface slavery can exist.

Huh!? Is that new??

i actually don't know. All i know is that i've seen such a character, in hub.

[Hazard]

For context, i've recently seen a character that had a slave clamp, which marked them as a slave of, and i quote

Slavemaster of Sibayad

So i think the 2 are actually separate in some way and surface slavery can exist.

Huh!? Is that new??

i actually don't know. All i know is that i've seen such a character, in hub.

That's awesome.

[Hazard]

I'm not opposed to a prison system on the surface, but personally I would take it one step further. Everyone on the raiding side accepts that if they die, it's a permadeath.

Why?

Because I still believe in setting integrity, and a raid from the underdark on the surface is usually the result of months if not years of planning and large groups from teh dark working together (sometimes is just a really strong drow house) when it comes to the forgotten realms. A raid on arelith is usually the result of having a strong group of 5-10 mechanically skilled players ready and willing, taking a portal over, and win lose or draw you get to do it again in a few days when that group is together again and bored.

That's a pretty serious disconnect from one to the other, and I personally think that anything that slows raids down and makes it more of a character end game thing rather than what that character does after leveling up for a few weeks until they get bored with it is a good thing.

I know, that's crazy talk.

100% agree.

[-XXX-]

Why would anybody engage in PvP with such hilariously uneven stakes?
Shaking things up in and shape or form should be incentivized and this would achieve the exact opposite.

[LurkingShadow]

Why would anybody engage in PvP with such hilariously uneven stakes?
Shaking things up in and shape or form should be incentivized and this would achieve the exact opposite.

Work prisoners or slavery for UD? Or the mentioned raiding perma death?

[-XXX-]

The permadeath ofc.

Btw. the argument that "team evil" has the upper hand because of the slavery system is flawed:
Enslaving requires consent - players can absolutely opt out of it. And even those who decide to play along can get rid of collars on their own.

By comparison Exiles (used liberally in surface settlements)

• do not require consent
• cannot be terminated by the exiled character on their own
• aren't the best option for Andunor (since the exiled characters don't have many places to go)
• aren't even available for Sencliff

For full disclosure: I am not the biggest fan of the slavery system myself

[LurkingShadow]

The permadeath ofc.

Btw. the argument that "team evil" has the upper hand because of the slavery system is flawed:
Enslaving requires consent - players can absolutely opt out of it. And even those who decide to play along can get rid of collars on their own.

By comparison Exiles (used liberally in surface settlements)

• do not require consent
• cannot be terminated by the exiled character on their own
• aren't the best option for Andunor (since the exiled characters don't have many places to go)
• aren't even available for Sencliff

For full disclosure: I am not the biggest fan of the slavery system myself

Exile can also be used below, so anyone can use it. Right? I never seen someone exile a Drow in lets say Guldorand and a Sun Elf in Andunor.

[-XXX-]

Exile can also be used below, so anyone can use it. Right? I never seen someone exile a Drow in lets say Guldorand and a Sun Elf in Andunor.

That doesn't mean that it has never happened before or can't happen. What's your point?

Still, the argument stands: the slavery system doesn't give an edge to any side because it's entirely optional.

[AnselHoenheim]

It's true it's possible to enslave characters in Sibayad, sure, you grab this evildoer, they consent OOC, turn them into a slave and then....

It becomes weird.

Why it is weird? Easy, there is no "good" slave callers, and the slave callers are all situated in the Underdark in one way or the other, and there is no slaver caller in Sibayad, it would only be a detriment because, considering everyone can call a slave back, those of the Underdark will be the ones able to call for the surfacer owned slave.

At the same time, maybe the underdarker slave wants to get rid of the collar right, who are they going to contact...? The good-doers that captured him? And go against their city for removing his own collar..?

So yes, Sibayad slavery has a huge inconvenience right now and a flaw in the system

[perseid]

It's true it's possible to enslave characters in Sibayad, sure, you grab this evildoer, they consent OOC, turn them into a slave and then....

It becomes weird.

Why it is weird? Easy, there is no "good" slave callers, and the slave callers are all situated in the Underdark in one way or the other, and there is no slaver caller in Sibayad, it would only be a detriment because, considering everyone can call a slave back, those of the Underdark will be the ones able to call for the surfacer owned slave.

At the same time, maybe the underdarker slave wants to get rid of the collar right, who are they going to contact...? The good-doers that captured him? And go against their city for removing his own collar..?

So yes, Sibayad slavery has a huge inconvenience right now and a flaw in the system

It seems more like an underdeveloped part of the system than an inconvenience. If the idea is that the slavemasters use the same magical collars but with different brandings then it's not that weird that any caller would work on any slave. But I think it'd be good if the surface did have a caller to replace the one removed from Sencliff ages ago (maybe at the Shadovar tradepost?) just so that the system could be utilized by surfacers to the same degree as UDers even if it remains taboo in most of the settlements. I believe there's a slave caller in Dis already which means C&P is arguably covered for both Surface and the UD. Sibayad not having its own caller is weird I agree but it's also tiny so I just don't know if it feels like a huge issue there.

The permadeath ofc.

Btw. the argument that "team evil" has the upper hand because of the slavery system is flawed:
Enslaving requires consent - players can absolutely opt out of it. And even those who decide to play along can get rid of collars on their own.

By comparison Exiles (used liberally in surface settlements)

• do not require consent
• cannot be terminated by the exiled character on their own
• aren't the best option for Andunor (since the exiled characters don't have many places to go)
• aren't even available for Sencliff

For full disclosure: I am not the biggest fan of the slavery system myself

I think the argument for team evil having the upper hand is frankly pretty shaky as far as the slavery system. People have already covered that being enslaved is opt-in but the other side of that is that a slave escaping isn't opt-out for the owner. So the mechanical counterplay heavily favors the victim. That's not to say that it shouldn't but framing the advantage as being with team evil seems bizzare when that's taken into consideration.

[LurkingShadow]

Exile can also be used below, so anyone can use it. Right? I never seen someone exile a Drow in lets say Guldorand and a Sun Elf in Andunor.

That doesn't mean that it has never happened before or can't happen. What's your point?

Still, the argument stands: the slavery system doesn't give an edge to any side because it's entirely optional.

Well, Guldorand, Beastlaw, Exiling Drow is meaningless when they are not alllowed inside.

[LurkingShadow]

It's true it's possible to enslave characters in Sibayad, sure, you grab this evildoer, they consent OOC, turn them into a slave and then....

It becomes weird.

Why it is weird? Easy, there is no "good" slave callers, and the slave callers are all situated in the Underdark in one way or the other, and there is no slaver caller in Sibayad, it would only be a detriment because, considering everyone can call a slave back, those of the Underdark will be the ones able to call for the surfacer owned slave.

At the same time, maybe the underdarker slave wants to get rid of the collar right, who are they going to contact...? The good-doers that captured him? And go against their city for removing his own collar..?

So yes, Sibayad slavery has a huge inconvenience right now and a flaw in the system

It seems more like an underdeveloped part of the system than an inconvenience. If the idea is that the slavemasters use the same magical collars but with different brandings then it's not that weird that any caller would work on any slave. But I think it'd be good if the surface did have a caller to replace the one removed from Sencliff ages ago (maybe at the Shadovar tradepost?) just so that the system could be utilized by surfacers to the same degree as UDers even if it remains taboo in most of the settlements. I believe there's a slave caller in Dis already which means C&P is arguably covered for both Surface and the UD. Sibayad not having its own caller is weird I agree but it's also tiny so I just don't know if it feels like a huge issue there.

The permadeath ofc.

Btw. the argument that "team evil" has the upper hand because of the slavery system is flawed:
Enslaving requires consent - players can absolutely opt out of it. And even those who decide to play along can get rid of collars on their own.

By comparison Exiles (used liberally in surface settlements)

• do not require consent
• cannot be terminated by the exiled character on their own
• aren't the best option for Andunor (since the exiled characters don't have many places to go)
• aren't even available for Sencliff

For full disclosure: I am not the biggest fan of the slavery system myself

I think the argument for team evil having the upper hand is frankly pretty shaky as far as the slavery system. People have already covered that being enslaved is opt-in but the other side of that is that a slave escaping isn't opt-out for the owner. So the mechanical counterplay heavily favors the victim. That's not to say that it shouldn't but framing the advantage as being with team evil seems bizzare when that's taken into consideration.

Favours the victim? You can sell the slave onward. Or release an annoying one, right?

[perseid]

It's true it's possible to enslave characters in Sibayad, sure, you grab this evildoer, they consent OOC, turn them into a slave and then....

It becomes weird.

Why it is weird? Easy, there is no "good" slave callers, and the slave callers are all situated in the Underdark in one way or the other, and there is no slaver caller in Sibayad, it would only be a detriment because, considering everyone can call a slave back, those of the Underdark will be the ones able to call for the surfacer owned slave.

At the same time, maybe the underdarker slave wants to get rid of the collar right, who are they going to contact...? The good-doers that captured him? And go against their city for removing his own collar..?

So yes, Sibayad slavery has a huge inconvenience right now and a flaw in the system

It seems more like an underdeveloped part of the system than an inconvenience. If the idea is that the slavemasters use the same magical collars but with different brandings then it's not that weird that any caller would work on any slave. But I think it'd be good if the surface did have a caller to replace the one removed from Sencliff ages ago (maybe at the Shadovar tradepost?) just so that the system could be utilized by surfacers to the same degree as UDers even if it remains taboo in most of the settlements. I believe there's a slave caller in Dis already which means C&P is arguably covered for both Surface and the UD. Sibayad not having its own caller is weird I agree but it's also tiny so I just don't know if it feels like a huge issue there.

The permadeath ofc.

Btw. the argument that "team evil" has the upper hand because of the slavery system is flawed:
Enslaving requires consent - players can absolutely opt out of it. And even those who decide to play along can get rid of collars on their own.

By comparison Exiles (used liberally in surface settlements)

• do not require consent
• cannot be terminated by the exiled character on their own
• aren't the best option for Andunor (since the exiled characters don't have many places to go)
• aren't even available for Sencliff

For full disclosure: I am not the biggest fan of the slavery system myself

I think the argument for team evil having the upper hand is frankly pretty shaky as far as the slavery system. People have already covered that being enslaved is opt-in but the other side of that is that a slave escaping isn't opt-out for the owner. So the mechanical counterplay heavily favors the victim. That's not to say that it shouldn't but framing the advantage as being with team evil seems bizzare when that's taken into consideration.

Favours the victim? You can sell the slave onward. Or release an annoying one, right?

Favors the victim in the meta-sense that slavery is entirely opt-in and escaping slavery has no counter-mechanic. If a slave wants to go free there's ultimately nothing that's going to be able to stop them. Which again, I'm not saying is a bad thing but it's weird to me that people actually think the power balance leans towards the slaver mechanically.

[LurkingShadow]

It seems more like an underdeveloped part of the system than an inconvenience. If the idea is that the slavemasters use the same magical collars but with different brandings then it's not that weird that any caller would work on any slave. But I think it'd be good if the surface did have a caller to replace the one removed from Sencliff ages ago (maybe at the Shadovar tradepost?) just so that the system could be utilized by surfacers to the same degree as UDers even if it remains taboo in most of the settlements. I believe there's a slave caller in Dis already which means C&P is arguably covered for both Surface and the UD. Sibayad not having its own caller is weird I agree but it's also tiny so I just don't know if it feels like a huge issue there.

I think the argument for team evil having the upper hand is frankly pretty shaky as far as the slavery system. People have already covered that being enslaved is opt-in but the other side of that is that a slave escaping isn't opt-out for the owner. So the mechanical counterplay heavily favors the victim. That's not to say that it shouldn't but framing the advantage as being with team evil seems bizzare when that's taken into consideration.

Favours the victim? You can sell the slave onward. Or release an annoying one, right?

Favors the victim in the meta-sense that slavery is entirely opt-in and escaping slavery has no counter-mechanic. If a slave wants to go free there's ultimately nothing that's going to be able to stop them. Which again, I'm not saying is a bad thing but it's weird to me that people actually think the power balance leans towards the slaver mechanically.

To me? Its like being served a steak with potatoes but no sauce. Waiter refuses to give me the sauce.
The other guy asks the waiter, "Can I have the sauce?" waiter says yes.

There is no sauce for portions of the server but there is also the weird Sibayadi sauce that lacks the spices since it lacks a slave caller.

Half past two, I think I should go sleep with these weird parables.

But yes, there is a meta component.

[Yma23]

I'm not so much against the idea displayed here, but rather the tone it was delivered in.
I mean it's honestly asking for exactly the same thing as this: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=44737
But that thread seems to come from a far better place.

The prison island idea suggested there is fun, I feel. I hope it happens. It could be awsome. But if we're looking at other ideas then three things to keep in mind - especially as this seems to be examined with a surface/underdark bias in mind, rather than more 'good/evil'

a) If this is based towards Underdark, how do you balence it with the monster rules? Slaves in the UD have free reign because they're... well slaves. Dms don't enforce surface races down there much, but DO enforce monster races visiting surface settlments, because of NPC reaction. With that in mind, how do you balence this? With that in mind- whatever is come up with must be kept away from an ostentatiously surface npc setting.

b) How do you make this something that 'goodly' pcs agree too? It's all very well to say 'make surface enslavement a thing' but you also have to sell it to the surface pcs. There was once a clamper on Sencliff, but it was removed because it made Sencliff so unpopular, hence the abolition movement now.

c) How do you make this FUN for the players involved? And yes, IN Character slavery is, or at least can be, a lot of fun. I've had a real blast with it in the post and I know I'm not alone in this. If you make whatever system you put in sound like it's absolutly miserable, then no one will agree to it, and you may as well not have it. Give it an aspect of fun (like the prison island has the possiblity to be!) and it's much more appealing and might work.

[DM Monkey]

Give yourself 20 minutes on the surface and suddenly, 20-30-40-50 max'd out toons you have not seen in months or years all login in at the same time and utterly crush and destroy your 4-5-6 people party in about 10

This should be reported if you want to see it fixed.

[LurkingShadow]

I'm not so much against the idea displayed here, but rather the tone it was delivered in.
I mean it's honestly asking for exactly the same thing as this: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=44737
But that thread seems to come from a far better place.

The prison island idea suggested there is fun, I feel. I hope it happens. It could be awsome. But if we're looking at other ideas then three things to keep in mind - especially as this seems to be examined with a surface/underdark bias in mind, rather than more 'good/evil'

a) If this is based towards Underdark, how do you balence it with the monster rules? Slaves in the UD have free reign because they're... well slaves. Dms don't enforce surface races down there much, but DO enforce monster races visiting surface settlments, because of NPC reaction. With that in mind, how do you balence this? With that in mind- whatever is come up with must be kept away from an ostentatiously surface npc setting.

b) How do you make this something that 'goodly' pcs agree too? It's all very well to say 'make surface enslavement a thing' but you also have to sell it to the surface pcs. There was once a clamper on Sencliff, but it was removed because it made Sencliff so unpopular, hence the abolition movement now.

c) How do you make this FUN for the players involved? And yes, IN Character slavery is, or at least can be, a lot of fun. I've had a real blast with it in the post and I know I'm not alone in this. If you make whatever system you put in sound like it's absolutly miserable, then no one will agree to it, and you may as well not have it. Give it an aspect of fun (like the prison island has the possiblity to be!) and it's much more appealing and might work.

If my post came off as crude, I simply got frustrated about these situations and I can be a bit direct in how I present something. I seen one to many, one sided situations and I do not see the fun in it as its a losing battle of, maybe fending them off this time but the next they might win and the Andunorians start to racketeer. To me, there is no mechanical way of stopping them from taking a break beyond the possible PvP rule.

A) I think there is a hang up on "Surface slavery". I simply point at a similar mechanic. Be it the prison island or not. Also, there is a monster law. But a lot of Andunorians are not under the monster law, Half Orcs, Duergar, Humans.

B) You point out that any state in Faerun has laws and systems in place to put people in jail. Even the "good".

C) What is the difference from being enslaved in Andunor? Make it a set time of having to work out in the forest, gathering resources or this prison island. If suddenly the "fun" aspect of being a slave is questioned when people ask for more creative ways to handle things above, so should we question the aspect of the "fun" of being a slave below.

I do not see how Andunor Slavery = FUN! RP CREATOR! But as soon as the surface players ask for similar tools to counter the raid kidnappings its "Surface Prisoner/Indentured Servitude = Not fun". What is the difference?

Also, if "good" cannot do anything but release their captives, it ends up in what I said, fighting them off until you get defeated and captured. This is a circle of unending, never solveable situations. I would not be suprised if some players agree to the slavery to put an end to things, that would not in my analyzing of the situation, be a plausible scenario.

[LurkingShadow]

The prison island does sound interesting. Would create for RP situations and escape plots. It would just need to be well thought out by the DM and Dev team. Which im sure they would do if this became a real thing.

[MissEvelyn]

I love the prison location idea, but not so much the way the technical execution is presented.

Deleveling and releveling is decidedly not fun. Having to re-allocate all your skill points, feats, spells, and etc. simply doesn't sound fun to me. And then imagine if you are caught again after escaping, now you have to do all of that again.

I'd much rather see a debuff to stats that scales with your level, than prisoners having to relevel. This, I feel, would make Prison Ship/Island much less tedious to be in.

[LurkingShadow]

I love the prison location idea, but not so much the way the technical execution is presented.

Deleveling and releveling is decidedly not fun. Having to re-allocate all your skill points, feats, spells, and etc. simply doesn't sound fun to me. And then imagine if you are caught again after escaping, now you have to do all of that again.

I'd much rather see a debuff to stats that scales with your level, than prisoners having to relevel. This, I feel, would make Prison Ship/Island much less tedious to be in.

Like item that mechanically lowers items? Like a level drain maybe?

[MissEvelyn]

I love the prison location idea, but not so much the way the technical execution is presented.

Deleveling and releveling is decidedly not fun. Having to re-allocate all your skill points, feats, spells, and etc. simply doesn't sound fun to me. And then imagine if you are caught again after escaping, now you have to do all of that again.

I'd much rather see a debuff to stats that scales with your level, than prisoners having to relevel. This, I feel, would make Prison Ship/Island much less tedious to be in.

Like item that mechanically lowers items? Like a level drain maybe?

Level drain hadn't even crossed my mind, but that's brilliant! That way no releveling is required when you're free, and thanks to saved spellbooks spellcasters won't have it tedious either.