Westcliff would be a neat actual settlement

[Quizmar]

Westcliff has a lot of potential, I know it's supposed to be a small logging camp, but I believe it would be a cool place to turn into a real settlement. It would kind of have a skal vibe to it
-there are 5 buildings that don't have interiors, these could all be residences
-it could use a planar portal
-the logjam could also house residents, and simply taking the Skal lodging house upper floors would do nicely
-amnian sailor should offer rides from guldorand to westcliff

[Itikar]

It used to have more facilities, but they were reduced in order to emphasize Guldorand proper as a settlement.

Was it a good decision? I am not privy or familiar with Guldorand enough to say, but there sure were people who were sad about that development back then.

In general, I think that the move to deemphasize minor settlements or modify them to be less easy to live in did not really provide any benefit or create new spaces to play in. I still mourn the changes to Shadow Wharftown and Sibayad personally.

[Hazard]

lol, all the suggestions here are things Westcliff used to have, when it was a real settlement called Guldorand.

Chances of them just putting everything back seem low, considering they just got rid of them, but... Yeah. Would be cool.

[Biolab00]

Much of the Westcliff facilities are removed or shifted in the past because there's lack of population in Guldorand for a couple of RL years when it was first introduced. Plenty of efforts other than that were also given to actualize the current successful population and RP potential in Guldorand.

Though...I do agree that Westcliff is in an awkward state because of accessibility issues among other things.
But there should be other more important priority though. Just like other settlements could enjoy a rework...and i think those managing The Sharps is already waving their flag if there's any hint of progress possible.

[Iceborn]

Not going to lie, this made me chuckle out loud.

What is now Westcliff used to be called Guldorand, and it was kinda a 'big' settlement of the island.
It was tiny, yes, a bank, the Logjam, the monastery, that was pretty much it, but it used to have a bit of an influx of high rollers and big movers and sometimes it used to have more pull and push power than the big cities.
From an outsider perspective anyway, I never stayed long in Guldorand and most of my characters are Darkers.

I don't think going back in history to make Westcliff guldorander than it is now is a good idea, though in the future it may be expanded again, if the server keeps growing in consistent playerbase to warrant another city.
I know I wouldn't mind a few houses and a fast travel method around.

[Sincra]

This will not be happening as it divides the player group.

Irongron specifically has downsized the player space in Westcliff as when Guldorand was put in it split the playerbase as some of the older players were existing in Westcliff but influencing Guldorand and thus not contributing to the city in a visible way, which as I'm sure can be understood is problematic for a new city.

Now you may argue that because Guldorand Is thriving this wouldn't be an issue but I can assure you it would be as I still see faces and names of the old crowd about who mention and try to continue representing Westcliff but from within Guldorand.
If it was restored it would once again split the groups.

Personally?
I feel when the Town was destroyed not long prior to the opening of Guldorand it should have stayed that way, which would have smoothed the initial transition.
But we have what we have as a midway.
Honestly it could still be downgraded further into just the logging enclosures.

I actually feel much the same way about Jotunhold and how they linger near the city, vote in it, but rarely have any involvement in the city. They are a phantom voter base that is divided because they don't have to bear concern for eviction or choices around the city.

[Irongron]

I'm very much against returning to small settlements on the surface, and much prefer mini 'nations' with a very large voting block. Right now we have (on the surface at least) 200+ voters outside of Bendir (I would still prefer one 'Earthkin' settlement with 3 leaders from each respective race).

Why?

Well a small electorate means that a settlement is easily dominated by an OOC player clique, can easily become stale/empty/isolated and cannot realistically compete in brokerage bidding. It really just makes for a more dynamic and interesting political climate.

I do think a return of Wharftown would be beneficial, if we had the overall numbers to justify it.

The Underdark is a little different, the playerbase is significantly lower, but there is also a reasonable argument to be made for something beyond Andunor.

Guldorand itself is intended as a nation though, so the powers of eviction should reasonably extent to Westcliff and any other quarters within its territory.

[Edens_Fall]

The Underdark is a little different, the playerbase is significantly lower, but there is also a reasonable argument to be made for something beyond Andunor.

Perks up with curious interest.

[AstralUniverse]

I do think a return of Wharftown would be beneficial, if we had the overall numbers to justify it.

The Underdark is a little different, the playerbase is significantly lower, but there is also a reasonable argument to be made for something beyond Andunor.

Who are you and what have you done to IG

[Spriggan Bride]

I always found smaller communities much more welcoming on Arelith. Cordor and Guld and even Anundor are very difficult for me to get involved with. Granted I am naturally shy and don’t play prime time hours but the communities there are so large, and with so many strong personalities that nobody gives a damn about an unknown face and if you’re not immediately fascinating— or a new character of a known player— you get ignored. It’s a shame to see small settlements get pushed out since they tended to need bodies more and were always willing to give an unknown a chance.

[Quizmar]

I'm very much against returning to small settlements on the surface, and much prefer mini 'nations' with a very large voting block. Right now we have (on the surface at least) 200+ voters outside of Bendir (I would still prefer one 'Earthkin' settlement with 3 leaders from each respective race).

Ok instead of it being a proper settlement, how do you feel about just adding more residences and easier access? Make it a chill RP spot and somewhere relaxing for people to use as their homebase, without messing with the votes and stuff. I don't know if residences are tied to votes or whatever, but it would be a cool spot to just hang and RP

Something similar for the UD would be cool, a relaxing hamlet with amenities and residences that doesn't really have much to do politically, maybe this could be part of the answer to the UD's lack of certain resource woes, discussed in your other thread. Maybe some fancy druidic tree which allows certain surface plants to grow nearby. Darklight grove perhaps? Darklight camp

[Paint]

Westcliff used to have more quarters and such. It's been stripped down on purpose to not detract from the fortress city, so adding quarters to it or reinstating it as its own settlement would be walking back a lot of effort put into de-emphasizing it. It's a shame, because it's a lovely area, but hey.

[Cuchilla]

I wouldn't like to see Westcliff return as a settlement. But maybe it would be nice to have the possibility to make the boat stop there, instead of the actual one-way boat (out of Westcliff). (How did it get there in the first place, one might ask)

I can't remember the arguments why you no longer can take the boat to Westcliff from Brog and Guldorand, so I might have missed a point there.

[Sincra]

I'm very much against returning to small settlements on the surface, and much prefer mini 'nations' with a very large voting block. Right now we have (on the surface at least) 200+ voters outside of Bendir (I would still prefer one 'Earthkin' settlement with 3 leaders from each respective race).

Ok instead of it being a proper settlement, how do you feel about just adding more residences and easier access? Make it a chill RP spot and somewhere relaxing for people to use as their homebase, without messing with the votes and stuff. I don't know if residences are tied to votes or whatever, but it would be a cool spot to just hang and RP

Something similar for the UD would be cool, a relaxing hamlet with amenities and residences that doesn't really have much to do politically, maybe this could be part of the answer to the UD's lack of certain resource woes, discussed in your other thread. Maybe some fancy druidic tree which allows certain surface plants to grow nearby. Darklight grove perhaps? Darklight camp

This is is exactly the issue however.
The Logging camp is Guldorand territory, as is Westcliff.
By this virtue alone any attempts to open it up again creates a play area that is outside the city but is still trying to influence it via votes as it will ultimately impact them.

As such it is unwise to restore Westcliff, it would have to be a seperate township with elections again to warrant a split, something I am confident the founding council would not allow, just as much as they should not be giving away territory of Guldorand to anyone.

Also the Undergrove already has a magic root tree, I believe it even has growing plots!

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm very much against returning to small settlements on the surface, and much prefer mini 'nations' with a very large voting block.

I love the ideas this sentence forms in my brain. It is however the kind of thing that needs to make sense to matter. I could sit here and rattle off a ton of ideas that will be just glazed over, but instead I'm going to give a prime example of what has been done that could have been awesome but because some kinks weren't worked out on creation turned out to be a disaster. Myon being part of Guldorand while not actually being part of guldorand. Making it right would have been easy, and could have gone one of two ways.

1) Myon was destroyed, elves need to be part of guldorand to surivive.

2) Put more emphasis on the "evermeet" aspect of the guldorand elves and leave the myon government powerless even in the elven district. You could have created a backdrop of rivalry, in so much as it would fit elves. "For centuries the high brows in Evermeet ignored Arelith, leaving Myon to its own devices and to form its own culture. Now that they are here, they can't help but be judgmental toward aspects of traditional elven culture that has slipped over the years in Myonian society, which in turn has led to a slight resentment from the myonians."

So, yea, nations are great, forcing people to work together or against each other, great. Slapping it together in a half assed fashion? Not so much.

[Spriggan Bride]

By this virtue alone any attempts to open it up again creates a play area that is outside the city but is still trying to influence it via votes as it will ultimately impact them.

As such it is unwise to restore Westcliff, it would have to be a seperate township with elections again to warrant a split, something I am confident the founding council would not allow, just as much as they should not be giving away territory of Guldorand to anyone.

I would bet most who want Westcliff to be its own thing don't want anything at all to do with influencing Guldorand. They want the small town experience again, which is very different than the big city vibes in Guld or Cordor, and in my experience a whole lot more accessible especially for players who aren't on 24/7.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

By this virtue alone any attempts to open it up again creates a play area that is outside the city but is still trying to influence it via votes as it will ultimately impact them.

As such it is unwise to restore Westcliff, it would have to be a seperate township with elections again to warrant a split, something I am confident the founding council would not allow, just as much as they should not be giving away territory of Guldorand to anyone.

I would bet most who want Westcliff to be its own thing don't want anything at all to do with influencing Guldorand. They want the small town experience again, which is very different than the big city vibes in Guld or Cordor, and in my experience a whole lot more accessible especially for players who aren't on 24/7.

You both are kind of missing the mark here, while being right in some aspects of what you are saying at the same time. I was floating around Guldorand when the city first opened and remember well the conversations of the time even if I can't say I had full access to the motivations behind the written opinions, as they are them and I am me.

Before the city, thanks to a disconnect with the setting, the small logging town of Guldorand was considered somewhat equal to Cordor. I used to make jokes about this all the time, how a city with a full-on navy and a connection to the most powerful nation on Faerun was considered equal to a small logging town on a mountain. The city was a much-needed adjustment to that dynamic, and one everyone in the town of Guldorand seemed to be behind. But then the great misunderstanding happened.

When the new city opened, the established faction of Guldorand expected they would get first pick of all the housing in the city. I can't tell you where they got that from but given how convinced they all were of it being true there was probably something said at some point that made them think that was the case, and after a bit of telephoning it became true at least in their mind. When that didn't match reality, folks hightailed back to the logging town we now call westcliff and just continued on with what was.

What that did was create an identical issue that still revolves around the elves of Guldorand. Instead of the first few months of Guldorand being a bunch of different factions vying for initial control, you had disgruntled elves holed up in Myon, disgruntled original guldorandians (coined it!) holed up in what is now westcliff, and a bunch of people like me walking around thinking "dafuq, this should have been the best time for this city." While the Myon thing is still a lingering issue, the changes to westcliff actually did some work and some great groups have come and gone through the city that more than likely would have failed had that change never happened.

That being said, there is another way to go about it that probably could make everyone happy, at least somewhat. And it's tied to what I highlighted above from what Irongron wrote. If the government of Guldorand was the central power, and the elven district was under that umbrella same as Westcliff, it could have actually made for amazing dynamics. And while it may seem like that slight difference already kind of exists, it certainly doesn't with the elven district and at the very least didn't play that way with the original return exodus back to Westcliff.

[Wethrinea]

I have been reluctant to comment on this thread as I have come to understand that there are stark differences in the understanding of what happened when Guldorand became a city instead of a logging camp, and what the motivations of the affected characters (and their players) were. For the server in general this is now an ancient dead horse not worth beating, but I feel compelled to point out that they were a little more nuanced what has been written so far in this thread.

Instead, I want to write about why Westcliff had, and still has, such an appeal for certain characters.

Like many others, I started playing on Arelith when the covid-plague hit in spring 2020 after a long hiatus from NwN, and started out on Skal. And man, that place is awesome for a brand new character, with the genuine feel of an isolated, vulnerable frontier town of limitless possibilities for the brave and crafty. Getting to level 16 and told to beat it by the Høvding, my character took the ferry to Guldorand (Westcliff) and discovered a small, isolated frontier town that he instantly felt at home in. It was small enough to have a natural gathering spot, enough services characters of any level, and situated squarely in a wild, dangerous region where even high levels could get mauled by bears and orc war bands if they were not careful.

No other settlement on the surface (save Skal) was, or is, like that. If you want the frontier experience without compulsory tree-hugging (unless you are measuring which one to fell that is), Westcliff is the place to be.

Even bereft of much housing, Westcliff still has the rest of the services it needs to function as a wilderness outpost. And if I were to offer any advice do the development team it would be that: Focus on Westcliff as an outpost of Guldorand, largely ignored by the city elite for everything but resources and taxes. Allow, and encourage even, frontier-type characters to base themselves there and come to loggerheads (har har) with the stuffed up city folk. Maybe put in an NPC Mayor that would represent the (NPC) mountain men, while also being beholden to the Council as part of the Nation of Guldorand. Station a small contingent of Garrison-soldiers that lament their fate of being punished with such a posting. Perhaps add access to citizen storage to the banker in the Logjam.

Westcliff does not need to be it own settlement or have a lot of housing to be a home for the right kind of characters. A few tweaks would go a long way.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

While I agree it's a dead horse, to use a cliche, those that never examine the past are doomed to repeat it. So, if you feel like you have something to add to the events surrounding that time that's being overlooked, let it fly. Often things both in our little nwn bubble and in the world outside are dismissed thanks to previous failure, when almost as often those things were good ideas that just needed a little tweaking. You never know when you might have the perspective that makes someone go "Eureka!, I know how to get it right this time!".

[Richrd]

I remember when the "logging camp" had more trees dead on the ground being chopped by half naked burly men than left standing ... now the place has an actual forest out the backdoor and is no longer a full on proper settlement.

Anyways. The city Guldorand exists. Arelith has enough settlements. Not every single player needs to own a piece of in-game property. Westcliff has an appeal to it but times change.

[Twohand]

I actually feel much the same way about Jotunhold and how they linger near the city, vote in it, but rarely have any involvement in the city. They are a phantom voter base that is divided because they don't have to bear concern for eviction or choices around the city.

You could say the same about Brogendenstein and its mountainside village, the Abyssal Fortress and any of the districts in Andunor, or even the Church of Bane and Cordor. Owning a quarter that can be evicted by a settlement leader is not a requirement for engaging with a city's politics, and if there is foul play of any kind, you know the DMs investigate it as they always do.

[AstralUniverse]

I actually feel much the same way about Jotunhold and how they linger near the city, vote in it, but rarely have any involvement in the city. They are a phantom voter base that is divided because they don't have to bear concern for eviction or choices around the city.

My character lives in a quarter without any settlement authority, but is a citizen somewhere, votes there sometimes if she feels like it, and falls exactly within what you define as 'phantom voter'. Happens all the time. It's a natural part of the game. Why is the Jotunhold any different than folks living in the Cricket cave or Sibayad?

Back in the day when I was the last trade minister in the old Guldorand, I remember a time when Tyros Ilaret, a banite who would never linger in Guldorand at the time as their hub, allegedly made all of his church becomes citizens in Guldorand in order to ALL 'phantom vote' and take over the settlement. That was actually pretty scary, in a cool way. It didnt work out because the town had enough active citizens that didnt want this to happen, but it could work and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Sincra]

Yes, you can say these things, except Jotunhold is explicitly on Guldorand territory so it has concerns over how it is ran.

I've witnessed these things happen so have nothing else to expand upon it.

[The First Vicar]

The Underdark is a little different, the playerbase is significantly lower, but there is also a reasonable argument to be made for something beyond Andunor.

Before we start on "Something beyond Andunor" can we PLEASE get an update to The Sharps that A LOT of the UD players have been asking for for a while now? We would like something more like how Greyport got redesigned. More shops and player housing etc, wanting to fill out The Sharps a bit more if we can and give it more life.

[Svrtr]

I'll refrain from commenting on the topic as I've no strong feelings, but just wanted to chime in.

Many at the Jotunold have been busy recently IRL, myself especially as I've been dealing with a series of unfortunate real life events, but there are IC agreements and roleplay surrounding the hold and guldorand politics and I would politely like to ask that roleplay be left in game and asked about IC if any are curious, and of course if concerns are raised reports are always worth while, but it has been a matter spoken of and discussed in character