Arelith

The following Planetouched races, unless otherwise noted, may be selected on-creation in the awards menu by any "base race": Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Moon Elf, Lightfoot Halfling, Rock Gnome, or Shield Dwarf:

I understand this used to be the case as the other races were all mechanically subraces. However, that's no longer the case. Now, you can choose from any of the non-award races directly in the character screen.

With this in mind, it might encourage a little more variety if these were widened to any base race. It seems very odd that, for example, you can't have a Drow tiefling or a Gold Dwarf aasimar . This also puts the 'basic' races in a position of primacy that, depending on the area, they simply shouldn't have - seeing a dozen genesi humans in the Hub, but no Drow ones, does start to strain credulity at times.

Would it be mechanically doable to change these, something the DMs don't want to see, or is that just a case of Legacy Spaghetti?

Drow already way too powerful as a race... What a reason to push it even further?

Jencent wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:42 am

Drow already way too powerful as a race... What a reason to push it even further?

This, pretty much. If we change this (and I absolutely agree that it'd make sense from a setting standpoint!), these special races would either have to be limited to non-award races with ECL+0, or be forced to choose between the template race properties and their own base race ones.

Sun Elf Fire Genasi Shadow Mage

Dreams wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:02 pm

Sun Elf Fire Genasi Shadow Mage

Would pretty much be equivalent to a Deep Imaskari Shadow Mage.

Would +2 to a stat really make a race OP? I understand concerns for balance but I don't think 1 ab/ ac or spell DC would break the server. There are way more unbalanced things than that.

Algol wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:26 pm

Would +2 to a stat really make a race OP? I understand concerns for balance but I don't think 1 ab/ ac or spell DC would break the server. There are way more unbalanced things than that.

This is a good question and I am going to go a bit on a tangent and say the whole award races are a mess.
As soon as an award race with a slightly better stat line than base races is released there is outcry. This has made most of the award races not only restrictive compared to base races (but mostly human) but sometimes worse than their base race counterparts.

For example:
Half-orc Earth Genasi has a stat line of +4 STR +2 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA (with gifts)
Minotaur has a stat line of +4 STR, +2 CON, -2 WIS -2 CHA

But minotaurs are also large, hence -1ab/ac. This means Minotaurs are actually just plain worse at beating things when compared to an half-orc genasi. Why, I am not sure. On top of that half-orcs get Ambidex for free, making it easy to do a dual wielding strength build.

Half-Giant Fire are similar. +4 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON -2 CHA stat line but they are also large so they also have the -1 ab/ac penalty. The dex penalty also restricts then a lot more than wisdom, as it makes it a lot more difficult to take WM levels for instance or dual wielding.

Base humans end up having the same AB (and more AC) as the half-giant and minotaur due to being medium. It is really frustrating that many of the races stat lines pigeonhole these races to certain builds and even then you are more optimal with a base race or base race + genasi/aasimar/tiefling.

Why are we afraid to make these award races with very lore specific advantages slightly better (or even ab/ac neutral) than their human base counterparts at what they are supposed to be good at?

Not that I disagree entirely with the point being made, but the large races have a niche in being knockdown spammers, gaining +4 towards the check. With the AB loss from size, this isn't as potent as it could be, but it's still good.

Or, it would be good if knockdown wasn't bugged and terrible right now.

Algol wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:26 pm

Would +2 to a stat really make a race OP? I understand concerns for balance but I don't think 1 ab/ ac or spell DC would break the server. There are way more unbalanced things than that.

Consider instead for stuff like tieflings and aasimar that it's their +2 to two stars on top of the bonus DI and skills

It would go beyond the curve in unnecessary ways that have balance ramifications, along with making the award races objectively stronger on higher ECL races like Drow and orog and duergar where award races aren't meant to be objectively stronger, at most slightly stronger in a niche at the expense of flexibility

Compared to, say, a half-orc earth genesi with a gift of strength? That +6 base strength is tasty

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:09 pm

Dreams wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:02 pm

Sun Elf Fire Genasi Shadow Mage

Would pretty much be equivalent to a Deep Imaskari Shadow Mage.

Deep Imaskari: Human base, +2 DI, +2 Gift = +4 from normal
Sun elf Fire Gen: +2 Sunelf, +2 Firegen, +2 Gift = +6 from normal

Algol wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:26 pm

Would +2 to a stat really make a race OP? I understand concerns for balance but I don't think 1 ab/ ac or spell DC would break the server. There are way more unbalanced things than that.

Drow with SR26 + 2 DEX/INT/CHA will have EVEN MORE +DEX/CON and also a bit of gifts? It will make drow top1 race to play. Just a lot of space with buil will be openned for that race. Coz they can dont care with CON at all. 2 point at PC creatation and YOU ALREADY have 14 con. And so on.

Eh, drow should be an award locked race for how strong it is.

It's stronger than many other award lock races, yet is for some reason not requiring a reward, where other races like gnolls require a minor award.. for what exactly?

the weirdness around award races never felt like it was based around how strong a race was. Minotaurs are objectively worse than Orogs but Minotaurs require a Greater Award to play compared to nothing for orogs.

Drow gensai would be still have less stats than a fey'ri with worse resistances so I don't know why you think they'd be above the current power level we have. Only benefit they have is their SR but, the SR helmet also provides force DR, so it's not that big of a deal to lose it.

I suppose a sun elf fire gensai would be a power creep intelligenct wise. But meta for wizards to go deep into con these days anyway.

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:45 am

Jencent wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:42 am

Drow already way too powerful as a race... What a reason to push it even further?

This, pretty much. If we change this (and I absolutely agree that it'd make sense from a setting standpoint!), these special races would either have to be limited to non-award races with ECL+0, or be forced to choose between the template race properties and their own base race ones.

Tbh the last option would be better imo, opens up some more options for character stories/development and naturally makes a difference for planetouched-(insert race) if they go for the template race properties over the base ones

Genasi should be open to all races*, with all the bonuses that they entail, and corresponding glaring weaknesses to make for it.
Those weaknesses could be, for example and taking some artistic liberty for the sake of balance, to be mechanically an Outsider, vulnerable to Bless Weapon and saveless banishments for debuffs, increased damage taken from opposite elements - amongst some off the top of my head.

For all purposes and intents, I think the weaknesses should be more pronounced than any bonus they could possibly stack.

*Some races are simply not compatible with genasi of course. There's no such thing as an imp genasi, or a pixie genasi, that I know, and hilarious as it would be to play a literal firefly, I think we should at least adhere to some sense of consistency.

Edit: Though ultimately I don't care about the balance compromise, as long as the option exists at all. Genasi are a fun way to add some spicy twists on otherwise done and tried concepts.