Summon Adjustments

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.
User avatar
Jencent
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:59 pm
Location: Russian Federation.
Contact:

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Jencent » Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:26 pm

Chloe123 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:04 pm

If your pure mundane can solo epic dungeon without consumables, so can your summoner caster, even after the nerf. Also pure mundane can only solo the very easiest ones like viper monastery, try anything harder will be a struggle. In comparison, casters can solo very hard dungeons before the nerf.

No i can't. Because all summons now become +/- trash tier. Beside few streams and type of summons.

Also pure mundane can only solo the very easiest ones like viper monastery

I cleared (With that PC-mundane) undead island in sea, Dragon Island, Epic dung near Brog and few more in the sea. That one with Huge elemental at the end. I have only problems with epic dungeon in Abyss, because was not able to damage That huge demon with current weapon.

On my Sumoner i have troubles even with viper monk dungeon. Because mobs able to damage ez as hell my summons and im not able to resummon and rebuff all my summons in the battle (hello rest system)

My mundane PC literally on surface have no problem with anything. And my caster without summons can be hurt or be killed on the road by trash mobs. Once happened to me. THX to gods i was saved with godsave.

Characters Status:
Jencent b'Ack - Got lost in the shadow plane & Died by unknown disease..
Angwil Bronzehand - Kickin and Screaming & Alive.
Waiting for Skeletons as playable race.
DM Butterfly wrote:You're an abomination of nature and balance

Shadowy Reality
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1250
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:56 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:39 pm

You might want to mention what sort of mundane that is.

If it is a mundane plantshape build, that is a special case. Most mundanes cannot easily solo most of those dungeons you mentioned.


User avatar
Jencent
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:59 pm
Location: Russian Federation.
Contact:

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Jencent » Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:44 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:39 pm

You might want to mention what sort of mundane that is.

If it is a mundane plantshape build, that is a special case. Most mundanes cannot easily solo most of those dungeons you mentioned.

No, not THAT cancer what was untouched for years.

SB/FTR/DD on G-fathered Aasimar-shield dwarf (dex version). In most cases i just bring together few rooms with monsters and hold in the corner till all mobs will die. And while im looting - 9hp+ regen per round will regen me to 100%.

I even do not use imp.invis and other wards, coz i dont need to.

Characters Status:
Jencent b'Ack - Got lost in the shadow plane & Died by unknown disease..
Angwil Bronzehand - Kickin and Screaming & Alive.
Waiting for Skeletons as playable race.
DM Butterfly wrote:You're an abomination of nature and balance

Dedman1234
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:04 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Dedman1234 » Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:37 pm

The summon nerf was badly needed. Any summoner's leveling experience was basically a breeze compared to the other classes, but I fear the nerf might be more of a band-aid fix than a proper solution to that problem.

The summons themselves, I believe, are suffering from two main issues that make them so damn powerful:

  1. They are far too reliable.
  2. They are far too easy to obtain.

Both of these issues can be fixed, but that is far from easy. Since it was the non-epic summons that mostly got hit by this, I'll focus on those.

  1. The first problem is about their reliability. Normal classes have to be wary of many dangers that the summons simply don't care about. Mundies have to be wary of enemy casters that have crowd control spells - fail the save against Hold Person, and you can say goodbye to your godsave (or your life). Mundies can suddenly get reduced to minced meat via a few bad rolls. After all, we've all had times when we were slowly chipping away at a boss only for the thing to roll two crits in a row and suddenly turn the battle into a chase, as you madly try to get away to heal up.

Elementals are death magic-immune, mind-immune, crit-immune, stat reduction-immune... basically immune to anything interesting. Yeah, they can be dismissed, banished, and wofed, but if you compare the amount of PvE mobs capable of casting those spells to the everpresent amount of mages that can absolutely ruin an average WM's day, then the danger becomes laughable in comparison. There is scarcely anything that can give you that sudden "oh crap" feeling when playing a summoner.

Even if the summon does end up screwing up, it is (with the exception of the above spells) never instantaneous. Summons die slowly due to their crit-immunity and DR. A summoner can clearly tell that they are losing the fight, and just send the summon away from themselves, dragging whatever monstrosity was that pummeling it with it, while the summoner retreats to safety.

And before anyone complains that such a thing basically ends their dungeon run, as they cannot get a second summon up, please consider that if a mundie gets similarly overwhelmed, they don't get to retreat. They just die.

The fix here would be to essentially remake the higher Summon Creature spells and get rid of elementals completely.
The whole line of those spells begins very nicely with various creatures with unique abilities, some even tailored specifically to Underdark characters, only to suddenly get replaced with a boring elemental that just gets progressively bigger.

It's almost like NWN devs gave up halfway through developing those. Arelith devs got us some really fancy creatures all across the board, maybe they should continue the trend and replace the elementals as well? Instead of upgrading a dire tiger into an elemental, a wizard could instead upgrade it into a yeti or a displacer beast. A cool and powerful creature, but just as vulnerable to the many dangers one encounters while adventuring as any other.

  1. The second problem is how easy it is to get those summons going.

You hit level 13 on a wizard, and BAM! Here you go, have a level 13 appropriate summon that will tear through content with little effort. Congratulations, you've truly earned it.

You hit level 13 on a WM? Oh boy, you better have a greensteel scimitar, a set of mithril armor, two sets of enchanted equipment, a steady supply of wards, enough money to fund your healing potion addiction, and a three-story house in Miami, or you are going to SUFFER.

Yeah, you could get this stuff by joining a faction, but even that requires at least some effort.

A summoner just gets their stuff because they killed enough goblins, and requires basically no effort to be functional.

This one has no easy fix - the sequencers were a good attempt, but in the end, they made it even easier to be a summoner. I distinctly remember playing a spontaneous caster that would normally have to buy wards or sacrifice valuable spell slots to get my summon to full power, but the implementation of the sequencers allowed me to just ressumon whenever I wanted, and have the thing fully warded in a matter of seconds.

Here, something would have to be done to make the summoners more reliant on their inventory, rather than base their summon's power purely on their character sheet.

All the summons should be nerfed even harder. With no investment on the summoner's part, they should be as strong as a wet noodle - just as any other class is in similar conditions.

On the other hand, I'd propose adding something like Assembly Templates, except for summoners, to allow them a fighting chance. You'd cast the summoning spell on the thing, and it would conjure forth a buffed creature. Name it an Arcane Conduit or something, and create different tiers made of increasingly rare materials that confer increasingly bigger bonuses on the creatures. Perhaps add some slots on those to allow granting the summons customized buffs ('add-ons', that would also be craftable, similar to temporary essences), so the summons wouldn't just be always the same thing everywhere. A warlock could make summons that make for more effective meat shields, with add-ons that increased AC and DR, as they blast their enemies, while a cleric would use those with stronger offense while providing their summon with healing.

You could even make a special add-on that would take up all of the slots, and even decrease the summon's stats a bit, but offered them a chance to save against WoF much like the Eldritch Summon does. That would allow summoners other than warlock to partake in PVP without being laughably inefficient.

Generally speaking, playing a summoner is extremely boring at the moment. All the summons are basically the same no matter what character you pick, the gameplay style doesn't require you to do much planning, and obtaining cool items, whether it be through loot, crafting, or trade, brings you no real satisfaction, as you don't really need them.

I do realize that the implementation of the "Summoner Assembly Template" is more like a faraway dream, due to the workload required. Still, I do think that something should be done to get a summoner's progression through the early levels back in line with everyone else, to force them to put more effort into being functional, but reward it with more power and customization options. Besides, adding some flair and variance to the summoned creatures themselves wouldn't hurt, so you don't encounter literally the same exact thing whenever you happen to meet a wizard.


Beary Nice
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:01 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Beary Nice » Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:39 pm

Dedman1234 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:37 pm

The summon nerf was badly needed. Any summoner's leveling experience was basically a breeze compared to the other classes, but I fear the nerf might be more of a band-aid fix than a proper solution to that problem.

The summons themselves, I believe, are suffering from two main issues that make them so damn powerful:

  1. They are far too reliable.
  2. They are far too easy to obtain.

Both of these issues can be fixed, but that is far from easy. Since it was the non-epic summons that mostly got hit by this, I'll focus on those.

  1. The first problem is about their reliability. Normal classes have to be wary of many dangers that the summons simply don't care about. Mundies have to be wary of enemy casters that have crowd control spells - fail the save against Hold Person, and you can say goodbye to your godsave (or your life). Mundies can suddenly get reduced to minced meat via a few bad rolls. After all, we've all had times when we were slowly chipping away at a boss only for the thing to roll two crits in a row and suddenly turn the battle into a chase, as you madly try to get away to heal up.

Elementals are death magic-immune, mind-immune, crit-immune, stat reduction-immune... basically immune to anything interesting. Yeah, they can be dismissed, banished, and wofed, but if you compare the amount of PvE mobs capable of casting those spells to the everpresent amount of mages that can absolutely ruin an average WM's day, then the danger becomes laughable in comparison. There is scarcely anything that can give you that sudden "oh crap" feeling when playing a summoner.

Even if the summon does end up screwing up, it is (with the exception of the above spells) never instantaneous. Summons die slowly due to their crit-immunity and DR. A summoner can clearly tell that they are losing the fight, and just send the summon away from themselves, dragging whatever monstrosity was that pummeling it with it, while the summoner retreats to safety.

And before anyone complains that such a thing basically ends their dungeon run, as they cannot get a second summon up, please consider that if a mundie gets similarly overwhelmed, they don't get to retreat. They just die.

The fix here would be to essentially remake the higher Summon Creature spells and get rid of elementals completely.
The whole line of those spells begins very nicely with various creatures with unique abilities, some even tailored specifically to Underdark characters, only to suddenly get replaced with a boring elemental that just gets progressively bigger.

It's almost like NWN devs gave up halfway through developing those. Arelith devs got us some really fancy creatures all across the board, maybe they should continue the trend and replace the elementals as well? Instead of upgrading a dire tiger into an elemental, a wizard could instead upgrade it into a yeti or a displacer beast. A cool and powerful creature, but just as vulnerable to the many dangers one encounters while adventuring as any other.

  1. The second problem is how easy it is to get those summons going.

You hit level 13 on a wizard, and BAM! Here you go, have a level 13 appropriate summon that will tear through content with little effort. Congratulations, you've truly earned it.

You hit level 13 on a WM? Oh boy, you better have a greensteel scimitar, a set of mithril armor, two sets of enchanted equipment, a steady supply of wards, enough money to fund your healing potion addiction, and a three-story house in Miami, or you are going to SUFFER.

Yeah, you could get this stuff by joining a faction, but even that requires at least some effort.

A summoner just gets their stuff because they killed enough goblins, and requires basically no effort to be functional.

This one has no easy fix - the sequencers were a good attempt, but in the end, they made it even easier to be a summoner. I distinctly remember playing a spontaneous caster that would normally have to buy wards or sacrifice valuable spell slots to get my summon to full power, but the implementation of the sequencers allowed me to just ressumon whenever I wanted, and have the thing fully warded in a matter of seconds.

Here, something would have to be done to make the summoners more reliant on their inventory, rather than base their summon's power purely on their character sheet.

All the summons should be nerfed even harder. With no investment on the summoner's part, they should be as strong as a wet noodle - just as any other class is in similar conditions.

On the other hand, I'd propose adding something like Assembly Templates, except for summoners, to allow them a fighting chance. You'd cast the summoning spell on the thing, and it would conjure forth a buffed creature. Name it an Arcane Conduit or something, and create different tiers made of increasingly rare materials that confer increasingly bigger bonuses on the creatures. Perhaps add some slots on those to allow granting the summons customized buffs ('add-ons', that would also be craftable, similar to temporary essences), so the summons wouldn't just be always the same thing everywhere. A warlock could make summons that make for more effective meat shields, with add-ons that increased AC and DR, as they blast their enemies, while a cleric would use those with stronger offense while providing their summon with healing.

You could even make a special add-on that would take up all of the slots, and even decrease the summon's stats a bit, but offered them a chance to save against WoF much like the Eldritch Summon does. That would allow summoners other than warlock to partake in PVP without being laughably inefficient.

Generally speaking, playing a summoner is extremely boring at the moment. All the summons are basically the same no matter what character you pick, the gameplay style doesn't require you to do much planning, and obtaining cool items, whether it be through loot, crafting, or trade, brings you no real satisfaction, as you don't really need them.

I do realize that the implementation of the "Summoner Assembly Template" is more like a faraway dream, due to the workload required. Still, I do think that something should be done to get a summoner's progression through the early levels back in line with everyone else, to force them to put more effort into being functional, but reward it with more power and customization options. Besides, adding some flair and variance to the summoned creatures themselves wouldn't hurt, so you don't encounter literally the same exact thing whenever you happen to meet a wizard.

In the most polite way possible, this is an absolutely baffling take

WM takes such little effort to clear content at low levels for the reward that you can consider your writwork done in a matter of an hour, even on Skal where the tuning is deliberately on the "over" side

The only summon I can say that actually did a job of speeding up any PvE while levelling is the fire elemental and the sheer cost of keeping it healed is unbelievable


Xerah
Posts: 2068
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Xerah » Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:43 pm

Beary Nice wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:39 pm

In the most polite way possible, this is an absolutely baffling take

Not quite sure what’s baffling about it, he did a very good job of objectively stating the issue with summons and why they are so good.

Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Kalthariam
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Kalthariam » Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:54 pm

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure we're leaving out the fact that Martials have a rougher early / mid game, in excahange for being top teir at max level, and the inverse happens for basically every single caster.

Congratulations you had an easy time level, now you contribute next to nothing to groups, and your only job is to buff the martials and watch them do everything. Ignore the fact the martials sometimes don't want you buffing them anyways because their potions they chug for 84 gold are harder to dispel than your epic spellcasting buffs.

Now casters get an awful Leveling experience and an awful max level experience. It's lots of fun.


User avatar
Algol
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Algol » Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:04 pm

I think casters with finite spell slots need a serious looking into in general to make them playing fun in general, but just looking at the summons for now:

1) One of the main issue they have is keeping agro. If you use cast AOE spell, and that spell doesn't disable/ kill everything, you'll be running around like a headless chicken. You'll be also running around if you cast a spell at an enemy your summon hasn't hit yet. To combat this a spell to give your summons a weak AOE aura could go a long way, I believe.

2) To make the summoning game play more fun and interactive... I think there could be more diverse summoning spells. A long term tanky but very low damage summon that has its own slot, and short term utility summons on their own slots could be a way to do it. (For example a high damage but very fragile summon or a spell casting summon etc) If the spell casting is fixed, a summoner play style could be something like juggling these diverse summons while making sure the tanky summon is well positioned.


Xerah
Posts: 2068
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Xerah » Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:14 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:54 pm

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure we're leaving out the fact that Martials have a rougher early / mid game, in excahange for being top teir at max level, and the inverse happens for basically every single caster.

Congratulations you had an easy time level, now you contribute next to nothing to groups, and your only job is to buff the martials and watch them do everything. Ignore the fact the martials sometimes don't want you buffing them anyways because their potions they chug for 84 gold are harder to dispel than your epic spellcasting buffs.

Now casters get an awful Leveling experience and an awful max level experience. It's lots of fun.

I've mostly played summoner classes, so I very much disagree. I certainly haven't felt useless at high levels. I have no idea why you always struggle so much and I haven't, so I'm not sure what to tell you.

I'm not fully willing to believe everyone's dooming about summons until I get to try it myself. I know with my new bard, summon 3 when you get it doesn't last (certainly without a sequencer) but you get it much later than a real summoner. Before, it could easily solo lots of places well over its level with minimal support.

Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

MartialHag
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:40 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by MartialHag » Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:22 pm

Back here once again with my Experience on my now almost Lv20 Wizard:

Literally no problems whatsoever, my worries of Low AC Elementals making it a Gold sink to heal or die in 3 rounds did not become true. Air Elemental (even unbuffed) is still king in tanking, throw a Druidic one on top for +8 AC and it carries you simply by virtue of being nigh unkillable by almost anything. (There are exceptions especially with Caster Mobs and Bosses depending on Dungeon but easily manageable with Healing Pots.)

Calling the Leveling Experience terrible because your Summon is no longer a braindead Autopilot .. well, weird statement to make. And with that I also don't see how Wizard is so screwed with the nerfs, considering at 21 you can get PC and that wasn't even touched. Even without Haste these hit like a damn Truck and 48 base AC before Sequencers is plenty on top of DR and Regen.

Concluding:
Wizard still suffers from all its previous problems and is in a terrible state generaly speaking, but are the Summon nerfs anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be ? No. Feels more like Casters got used to "braindead walk their Summons" and now they have to actually use their kit (as limited as it may be) and they can't handle it.
PvE problems are nonexistent for me and I didn't even pick Conj Focus for the Tier increase. I just hope Wizard gets some omph of its own soon so we don't have to rely on Summons so damn much.


User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1475
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by RedGiant » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:26 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:43 pm
Beary Nice wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:39 pm

In the most polite way possible, this is an absolutely baffling take.

Not quite sure what’s baffling about it, he did a very good job of objectively stating the issue with summons and why they are so good.

deep breath Essay Mode / On /.

I'm a long-time player of mostly casters. My first response to the original round of cuts to summons was to abandon them and make a barbarian.

To Beary NIce's point, I didn't even do anything special. He is a 26/4 Full EDR/Full Rage Barb that still wears displacer beast hide (which we've talked about before). I have never hit 30 so fast, not even on a Druid or a Warlock (the supposed kings of PvE). The only consumables I generally used were the three physical pots, barkskin pot, shield pot, and mage armor scroll (apprx. 400gp for a 3-hour outing). Rarely I will have to chug a clarity or a nep, all of which he finds. He clears his own debuffs, hits like a truck, soaks all kinds of damage, regens, self-conceals, 26 SR, etc. etc. etc. I easily farmed adamantine and all the stuff I needed to make a Serpent's Woe and a Steelbreaker. It was never so fast or so easy. I literally push one button and face tank the server.

Also as Beary Nice points out, Weapon Master is even easier. I've now done a SD/WM and a DD/WM (Do U Turtle BRO?!?), where whirlwind attack replaces rage as your one button win. I've left off or rolled most of these projects because I was bored. Moreover, I actually needed less help and thus less interaction on my mundies (you're welcome hazard) for end-game content and gearing, because I could generally just go take what I needed.

But summons are the problem.

I really don't know what to say, at this point, about the gulf of opinion. I've played both. I find a well-built mundie to be easy-street, with the added benefit of being good at PvP when you are done.

Also, to Dedman's points...

Summons Reliability:
"Yeah, they can be dismissed, banished, and wofed" (Don't forget dispelled, turned, controlled, slowed, greased...)
"There is scarcely anything that can give you that sudden "oh crap" feeling when playing a summoner" (Except for all of the above.)
"Summons die slowly due to their crit-immunity and DR" (Except for all of the above.)
"Summons dragging" (Mundies can do this too, see Loremageddon. Lead the boss away from the phylactery with a lvl 3 zombie? Check.)
"Mundies just die in place" (Not if they're smart? See also Loremageddon, Sprint, and a host of other class and gear possibilities.)

Summons Obtainability:
"You hit lvl 13 wizard BAM" (See above comments about WM, Barb, etc. by lvl 10. And we're not even talking SS, Pally, or BG.)
"Better have a greensteel scim" (Or an enchantment basin, or a freely available keen edge scroll. Scim not required, Love me some Halberd.)
"[Gearing]..." (See above. 30k Displacer Beast Armor + 400gp an outing in prep, + expertise feats = exponentially less heal kit bleed. I would be shocked if I went through even 200-300 kits by the time I either get sufficient class or item healing/regen going on so that kits are mostly superfluous.)

tl:dr Are summons too good? Because a smartly-played mundie is great...

The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

Biolab00
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:41 am

Jencent wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:26 pm
Chloe123 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:04 pm

If your pure mundane can solo epic dungeon without consumables, so can your summoner caster, even after the nerf. Also pure mundane can only solo the very easiest ones like viper monastery, try anything harder will be a struggle. In comparison, casters can solo very hard dungeons before the nerf.

No i can't. Because all summons now become +/- trash tier. Beside few streams and type of summons.

Also pure mundane can only solo the very easiest ones like viper monastery

I cleared (With that PC-mundane) undead island in sea, Dragon Island, Epic dung near Brog and few more in the sea. That one with Huge elemental at the end. I have only problems with epic dungeon in Abyss, because was not able to damage That huge demon with current weapon.

On my Sumoner i have troubles even with viper monk dungeon. Because mobs able to damage ez as hell my summons and im not able to resummon and rebuff all my summons in the battle (hello rest system)

My mundane PC literally on surface have no problem with anything. And my caster without summons can be hurt or be killed on the road by trash mobs. Once happened to me. THX to gods i was saved with godsave.

I find this extremely hard to believe actually.
Planar conduit can still breeze through most epic dungeon and when they falls halfway, you just need to pop a gate summon or Elementals which comes with multiple cast.
I've still seen Wizards charging together with their summon and just spam cantrip, level 9 spells on a whim when they triggered the flux. Some of them, having the right spell focus, continues to spam color spray or blindness/deaf which continues to be effective on some epic dungeon.

I mean...if your summoner cannot even clear Viper monk, it's probably something to do with how you play rather than what you have. I have come down to this fact because Wizard / Warlock / Sorcerer are the only class that can effectively solo Paush which means, they can and still can, clear all content. I know these because I've done it and currently, I'm playing mundane because i find caster classes with summons, do not give much satisfaction anymore when i solo run those dungeon.

Feels more like Casters got used to "braindead walk their Summons" and now they have to actually use their kit (as limited as it may be) and they can't handle it.

It's as the above has written, the reliance on it and what we always consider, click and stand back.

I mean, this is pretty simple that when you ask a two handed mundane, to follow you ( also a two hand mundane ) to Manor mourn, both of you will get shredded within a couple of engagement due to low AC
But if one of you is a Warlock / Wizard with summon? That's an entirely different story.


User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2136
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by -XXX- » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:01 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:41 am

I have come down to this fact because Wizard / Warlock / Sorcerer are the only class that can effectively solo Paush which means, they can and still can, clear all content.

How do you solo Paush with a wizard or a sorcerer?

  • gonnes don't work anymore
  • his SR absorbs all spells
  • summons are fishing for 20s to hit him and his regen fully heals him between they score any hits

Yes, a warlock with a positive damage type blast can kill Paush, sure - but I dunno how you reached the conclusion that if you can solo Paush with an Eldritch Doom Feylock build, any vanilla Wizard or Sorcerer should be able to do the same.


Xerah
Posts: 2068
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Xerah » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:13 am

RedGiant wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:26 am

stuff

Great, but that's doesn't have anything to do with summons.

Objectively, summons made a ton of content trivial and that's what the issue was and what was disliked by the Dev team. Summons were great for me because I could do other things (Netflix, Marvel Snap, multi-tasking etc.) at the same time when I was going through areas with classes with good summons. Never had to worry about anything (certainly not buying equipment aside from enough supplies to make your own arcane sequencers). As much as it worked for me, I don't think that's very great for the server to trivialize the content so much.

I guess I thought everyone played summoners this way.

Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

User avatar
Diegovog
Posts: 499
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:23 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Diegovog » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:40 am

I'll be honest. It's super frustrating...

I play a base sorcerer (yeah laugh all you want) and I actually checked if anyone else played my build or anything similar in the last player count and the answer is nobody. Why would anyone? It's not meta. Strong builds are spellswords, warlocks, paladins, defilers. It's not even fun playing sorcerer, you don't get a lot of feats for QoL foci feats. And sure, you get access to divine shield and divine grace if multiclassing, at the cost of valuable CL.

Now it's hugely worse for both PvE and PvP. Summons can't solo tank epic dungeons despite what some here are saying. They are either blatantly lying or doing easier "epic" content like vipers temple. PvP summons actually used to apply a lot of pressure on the opponent, giving some breathing time to do something, force them to kill it, or to WoF. And even mord+wof wasn't needed since EDK was already bad. Now summons are laughable in PvP, no questions.

It's not even a slow, community-driven, with feedback push for change. It's an absolutely abrupt change that's just disheartening. Meanwhile, what sort of nerfs are spellswords given? Very slow, small changes at a time. There's no consistency at all.

So why leave the pure arcane casters in such a bad position when they aren't even an issue of large population?

And what are you going to do in order to make wizards and sorcerers friendly to newcomers? Someone mentioned earlier that they found it easy to level without conjuration spell focus. And I have tried that before and I found it to be hell until you get to elementals. If we mean to bring in new people and keep them, this is not the way.

I hate to be dramatic over this, I don't want to push unnecessary pressure on the already busy dev team, but I can only kindly ask you guys for a way to find a way to balance sorcerers and wizards and make them at least fun to play...


Kalthariam
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Kalthariam » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:43 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:14 pm
Kalthariam wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:54 pm

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure we're leaving out the fact that Martials have a rougher early / mid game, in excahange for being top teir at max level, and the inverse happens for basically every single caster.

Congratulations you had an easy time level, now you contribute next to nothing to groups, and your only job is to buff the martials and watch them do everything. Ignore the fact the martials sometimes don't want you buffing them anyways because their potions they chug for 84 gold are harder to dispel than your epic spellcasting buffs.

Now casters get an awful Leveling experience and an awful max level experience. It's lots of fun.

I've mostly played summoner classes, so I very much disagree. I certainly haven't felt useless at high levels. I have no idea why you always struggle so much and I haven't, so I'm not sure what to tell you.

I'm not fully willing to believe everyone's dooming about summons until I get to try it myself. I know with my new bard, summon 3 when you get it doesn't last (certainly without a sequencer) but you get it much later than a real summoner. Before, it could easily solo lots of places well over its level with minimal support.

Yeah, and summons were literally the only way you did anything on your own in most cases.

I've almost exclusively played summoning classes until they screwed up summons in general with the sequencer non-sense, and ever since then I've purposely stayed away from Conjuration style characters, because its' not fun.

If your one of the special infinite spell classes that also get a conjuration, congratulations, you could have done the content without conjurations, the conjurations are just icing on the top.

Other classes literally can't do that, because they run out of spells in 3-4 waves of mobs.

At high levels, I've literally been told I'm not allowed to use conjurations in groups because they get in the way, so INstead I just end up buffing the martials, and watching them run around and kill stuff while I just stand there and if I'm lucky, I can cast a sacred fire at a target once before the martials have killed it and already moved on to the next pack of mobs.

But unless you're a martial, or a infinite caster, you don't get to have fun in end game content, because it takes 2-3 metor swarms to kill a single pack of mobs that are in epic dungeons because everything always saving and halving the damage and the damage is pitiful to begin with.

So you either are a conjurer and have your summons allow you to do -something- or you just do nothing or watch other people play the game. While you just get to watch.


Biolab00
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:56 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:01 am
Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:41 am

I have come down to this fact because Wizard / Warlock / Sorcerer are the only class that can effectively solo Paush which means, they can and still can, clear all content.

How do you solo Paush with a wizard or a sorcerer?

  • gonnes don't work anymore
  • his SR absorbs all spells
  • summons are fishing for 20s to hit him and his regen fully heals him between they score any hits

Yes, a warlock with a positive damage type blast can kill Paush, sure - but I dunno how you reached the conclusion that if you can solo Paush with an Eldritch Doom Feylock build, any vanilla Wizard or Sorcerer should be able to do the same.

I will admit that any warlock ( fey, undying or even infernal ) has it much easier on killing Paush.
Wizard / Sorc can do it just fine with potion and scrolls (for unlimited summoning) which they just have to brew / create themselves, clug potion of true strike and shoot with your gonne which still hits it. I've not tried other spells that does not check SR because Immunity to Spell is non-existant if it does not check SR.
Means to say that Tentacle spells might work on Paush but not those bludgeoning type. You can try the Entropy type.


User avatar
Algol
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Algol » Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:17 am

Only warlocks get entropy tentacles...


Biolab00
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:30 am

Algol wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:17 am

Only warlocks get entropy tentacles...

Kyristan's Malevolent Tentacles

Spell Level(s): Cleric(Undeath) 6, Hemomancer 7, Sorcerer 6, Warlock 6, Wizard 6
Innate Level: 6
School: Necromancy
Descriptor(s): None
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Medium (20 meters)
Area of Effect / Target: Large (5 meter radius), 1d4 tentacles + 1 / caster level (maximum 20)
Duration: 1 Round / 2 Levels
Additional Counter Spells: None
Save(s): Fortitude special
Spell Resistance: No

Description: A field of thick, 10 foot life draining tentacles erupt from the ground. Each is capable of grappling a target. If grappled, the target takes 1d4+1 negative damage per tentacle (or with ESF Necromancy: Entropy Damage) and must then make fortitude saving throws against level drain(1d3) and paralysis. The tentacles are randomly spread out over the area of effect allowing no more than half of the tentacles to reach a single target in any given round. Small creatures are not immune to the spell's effects.

This is why...Wizard / Sorc is a knowledge based class. You really need to do deep research on every spells available in your arsenal.


User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1475
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by RedGiant » Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:31 am

Xerah wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:13 am
RedGiant wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:26 am

stuff

Great, but that's doesn't have anything to do with summons.

Objectively, summons made a ton of content trivial and that's what the issue was and what was disliked by the Dev team. Summons were great for me because I could do other things (Netflix, Marvel Snap, multi-tasking etc.) at the same time when I was going through areas with classes with good summons. Never had to worry about anything (certainly not buying equipment aside from enough supplies to make your own arcane sequencers). As much as it worked for me, I don't think that's very great for the server to trivialize the content so much.

I guess I thought everyone played summoners this way.

Please explain, then, how many of the "one-button" martial classes are any different? If content trivialization is the problem, Jencent just described how he would gather rooms full of content on his DD, sit in the corner, and wait for it to be over.

I have literally left the room and made a sandwich on my martials while combat is resolved, using any number of the "one-button" techniques, to include rage, improved expertise, parry, and defensive stance.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but there is an equivalency here I think that is not being appreciated. You can also turn Arelith into an idle point-and-click adventure on a mundane.

Biolab was bored by summoners. I'm bored by mundanes. The 'problem' we ascribe to one is also true of the other and I counter your naked wizard with my earthkin turtle (do you turtle bro?!?).

Here I suppose my offered solution would be, not to substantially depower an archetype, but just throw some more foils into the content.

I'm not sure why anyone else is not mentioning this, but there is a ton of anti-summons content out there. Maybe it is because I play alot in the UD, but everything from the Stinger Lord to the Tribals will straight up ruin your cycle. Moreover, Iron just introduced new content in the Shattered Badlands that made my latest summoner tuck tale and run, forcing him to devise entirely new strategies.

This doesn't ruin anyone's build nor take away anything from the player base. Its elegant and fun. IMO, this is the way.

The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

User avatar
Algol
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Algol » Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:06 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:30 am
Algol wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:17 am

Only warlocks get entropy tentacles...

Kyristan's Malevolent Tentacles

Spell Level(s): Cleric(Undeath) 6, Hemomancer 7, Sorcerer 6, Warlock 6, Wizard 6
Innate Level: 6
School: Necromancy
Descriptor(s): None
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Medium (20 meters)
Area of Effect / Target: Large (5 meter radius), 1d4 tentacles + 1 / caster level (maximum 20)
Duration: 1 Round / 2 Levels
Additional Counter Spells: None
Save(s): Fortitude special
Spell Resistance: No

Description: A field of thick, 10 foot life draining tentacles erupt from the ground. Each is capable of grappling a target. If grappled, the target takes 1d4+1 negative damage per tentacle (or with ESF Necromancy: Entropy Damage) and must then make fortitude saving throws against level drain(1d3) and paralysis. The tentacles are randomly spread out over the area of effect allowing no more than half of the tentacles to reach a single target in any given round. Small creatures are not immune to the spell's effects.

This is why...Wizard / Sorc is a knowledge based class. You really need to do deep research on every spells available in your arsenal.

That's negative energy not entropy. The damage is abysmal and level drain is a fort saving assuming they don't have NEP. And if they don't have NEP... You'd be better off using cloud kill or negative energy burst rather than waste a slot on a spell that'll literally do less than a cantrip. Or if you are targeting their fort save you could cast wail of the banshee (or heck even circle of death) and you'd be way better off.


User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2136
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by -XXX- » Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:43 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:56 am

I will admit that any warlock ( fey, undying or even infernal ) has it much easier on killing Paush.
Wizard / Sorc can do it just fine with potion and scrolls (for unlimited summoning) which they just have to brew / create themselves, clug potion of true strike and shoot with your gonne which still hits it. I've not tried other spells that does not check SR because Immunity to Spell is non-existant if it does not check SR.
Means to say that Tentacle spells might work on Paush but not those bludgeoning type. You can try the Entropy type.

'xcept I did all the gonne true strike dance & it had no effect... 60 times in a row. When I say that gonnes don't work anymore it means that I actually tried it and it didn't work

Haven't tried Kyrstan's here specifically, but the spell is not strong enough to bring down less powerful bosses on its own (remember, you can't stack tentacle spells of the same type on top of each other), so there's no reason to believe it would be enough here (not mentioning that even if it were, it'd mean that you could beat the strongest boss on Arelith by casting a single spell)
Tentacle spells have reduced effect against large size things. And Paush has regen - merely dealing damage and trying to outlast the encounter isn't enough - you need to consistently keep generating a critical volume of damage here (something that vancian casters are famously unable to do because they're doomed to run out of juice at some point).

To sum it all up - you claimed that wiz/sorc/warlock can solo Paush because you tried it
But all you actually tried was doing it with a specific warlock build that checked all the boxes
It's not the same - you can't try apples and make sweeping claims about oranges based on that

It's the general issue with people merely assuming how wiz/sorc and their spells work without actually trying it on Arelith live before drawing conclusions.


Biolab00
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:49 am

Hmm...did i made a miscalculation somewhere?
Because i am very certain that Blast lock can touch them with a specific AB so you just need to have higher AB than formerly.
I will expect the tentacle spell to chip him away slowly because my bomb-lock is not as amazing as sounds, he literally chip him away very slowly.

While the spell do not stack, I'm pretty sure that the tentacle spell does not actually just do 1 tentacle hit per round.
Even by rough estimate, i'll give it a four and 1d4+1 x 4 is pretty good, right as good as my bomb-lock damage.


User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2136
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by -XXX- » Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:10 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:49 am

Hmm...did i made a miscalculation somewhere?
Because i am very certain that Blast lock can touch them with a specific AB so you just need to have higher AB than formerly.
I will expect the tentacle spell to chip him away slowly because my bomb-lock is not as amazing as sounds, he literally chip him away very slowly.

While the spell do not stack, I'm pretty sure that the tentacle spell does not actually just do 1 tentacle hit per round.
Even by rough estimate, i'll give it a four and 1d4+1 x 4 is pretty good, right as good as my bomb-lock damage.

It's not about landing the touch attack, it's about gonne having literally no effect after scoring a hit (dunno how or why - just sharing my findings)

As for Kyristain's Malevolent Tentacles - here's a bit straight from NWN wiki entry for Evard's Black Tentacles to offer some insight on how tentacle spells actually work:

NWN wiki wrote:

The grapple check used to determine whether or not a tentacle hits a target is as follows:
1d20 + caster level (to a maximum of 20) + 4(tentacle's strength modifier) + 4(tentacle's size modifier) versus
1d20 + base attack bonus + strength modifier + size modifier.
This makes this spell rather ineffective versus opponents with a high base attack (e.g. warriors), and stronger and larger opponents (e.g. dragons).

full link: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Evard%27s_black_tentacles

So yeah, the tentacles are going to fish for nat 20s before dealing their 1d4+1 damage against Paush.


Biolab00
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

Re: Summon Adjustments

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:15 am

Now you got me here.
I will admit that i have not done Paush run with Wiz / Sorc before but, i know that they exist since our IG PCs ( other players ) met each other a few times with a hello in the past.
Well, if i truly decides to trial and error, it's a matter of time before i get how it can be done, just that I am not yet doing so.
Perhaps my next PC :D


Post Reply