Summon Adjustments

[Irongron]

This is also being posted in Announcements and on updates, but I want to get ahead of it and reply here personally. Reasons why, and plans for the future.

First, this is the update:

SUMMON ADJUSTMENTS

• Almost all summon balance adjustments introduced since the addition of Runic Sequencers have been reverted. Notable exceptions:
  • Undead creatures remain unchanged, as they only received flavour updates during this time.
  • Summoned Celestials still cannot cast Word of Faith.
  • White Slaadi still do not stun on hit.
  • Dire Animals and Fire Elementals retain the existing chance to receive a temporary 7 AB boost during combat.
  • Balors and Pit Fiends retain their visual updates.

SPELLS AND SUMMONS

• Mass spells such as Mass Haste, Mass Bull's Strength, or Mass Cat's Grace no longer affect summons. Regular AoE spells continue to have an effect.

• Applying Haste or Mass Haste to a character now results in their summons receiving a 50% speed increase for the spell's duration.

So the reasons being are quite simply that summons (Also beyond those listed here), continue to quite simply break the game. I see this repeatedly when watching PCs in the game client, and I know that 95% of those reading this have direct experience of this too.

Essentially player characters are superfluous and almost any summoner can simply sail through PvE content behind near invulnerable summons. This doesn't just happen at at high levels, but almost immediately. Game content, and gameplay is trivialized by what I consider to be absurdly overpowered content.

The sequencer update was meant to impact this, though given the resistance and just general drama that followed we agreed to make some changes, and exceptions (see the update above) while we assessed the impact of the change. Well, quite some time has passed now and it's crystal clear that the problem of overpowered summons is still with us. Not only is gameplay a concern, but also performance - pathfinding is a big part of performance issue, and obviously when dungeons are essentially being run by ai and not players, that does have an effect.

Quite honestly, I could have gone way, way further in curtailing them, but the main fact that stops me from doing so is just how much I admire our current system from a narrative/creative point of view. It is the mechanics of summoning, the interesting and fantastic looking spread of available streams and summons that prevents me from simply reverting to a near vanilla state.
The above changes aren't intended as a solution, and there remain considerable issues to be overcome, such as:

The problem this presents for wizards, who despite all of our additional spells and features for arcane users continue to rely on summons (they really shouldn't have to)
The power of planar conduit.
The issues caused by the fact that some hostile monsters have access to overpowered summons also (throwing at least one Skaljard dungeon entirely out of the CR range it was intended for)
And much, much else.

The reason I wanted to post this though, is that there was a real outcry last time, and what I considered to be quite a visceral reaction, as there often is in such situations.

In this case I very much want to wait before making any rapid adjustments based over the drama of the moment. It's stressful for staff members at such times, especially if they start getting personally flamed for defending changes. In the midst of such a frenzy it is often hard to make balanced decisions, or any decisions at all. I have been asked by staff members not to bring the hammer down on summons yet further (my instinct is absolutely in that direction) and instead give the changes a few months to properly assess. I'm asking the community to do the same; take time to play with the above changes before rushing to forums to demand less/more of them. To this end I've advised staff members not to engage with feedback on this topic until an appropriate transition period has passed, maybe 10 weeks? Players are welcome to post here of course, but outside of addressing actual bugs I won't be engaging, and have encouraged staff to avoid doing so too.

Essentially, give this update time to settle.

Finally I want to thank the player volunteers that run the wiki. We all rely on it so very much, and I know some people still don't realise it is done, for the most part, by volunteers outside of our actual staff. I know changes like this demand changes there, and that can be a headache. It's such a fantastic resource that we shouldn't take for granted.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

If wizards are going to be reviewed for being able to do more without relying on their summon, could cloistered cleric also be reviewed? I've posted a lot of feedback on the path and how it falls behind and is even more summon reliant than any other caster type I've played, but nothing's come of it.

[Kalthariam]

Ah, cool. So my stockpile of of mass zoo buff scrolls is now useless, and my summons are just as bad, if not worse off then they were before.

Guess everyone gets to now experience what being a cleric conjurer has been like since the sequencer update, spoiler alert. It's awful.

Guess Martials needed to continue to be the only people allowed to be good in this game. That or I guess that select few infinite casting classes. Ever other spellcaster exists just to support martials now.

[For My Next Trick]

Yeah wizards are kind of bad as it is, especially compared to say, spellswords. Not to even mention where sorcerers are at. I understand that you seem to think that summons are some insanely overpowered thing that trivializes content, but I'm going to be honest that's still not entirely true. Sure, they make things easier, and give casters autonomy. But it's always been better to buff another player and still is.

Well. I hope wizards actually get something? Because there is a constant stream of making changes without counter-balancing what happens from them, and people jumping the gun on reverting changes, leaving people out to dry while they figure things out, rather than taking the time to bring others up to speed before nerfing those who are already kind of bad.

[ReverentBlade]

So you're going to make cloth-wearing spellcasters with low AC viable solo how, exactly?

[Hinty]

Was very much needed.

A 300 gold scroll could solo multiple writs for anyone under level 10.

I had a Warlock character with a rather janky build that was able to complete level 20 Writs because of a 700 gold Summon 4 scroll. Without conjuration feats. Yes the Dire Spider made my level 20 able to solo content.

Sure, many characters will depend upon summons, but the way they were was just crazy over the top. Before anyone jumps to scream about how unfair or unbalanced this is, perhaps try it out for a bit. Summons may have been reset to how they were before, but we have the ability to apply multiple buffs in an instant, and they now come with Guard. They do not play the same now as they did then. Try them out.

[For My Next Trick]

This is also being posted in Announcements and on updates, but I want to get ahead of it and reply here personally. Reasons why, and plans for the future.

First, this is the update:

SUMMON ADJUSTMENTS

• Almost all summon balance adjustments introduced since the addition of Runic Sequencers have been reverted. Notable exceptions:
  • Undead creatures remain unchanged, as they only received flavour updates during this time.
  • Summoned Celestials still cannot cast Word of Faith.
  • White Slaadi still do not stun on hit.
  • Dire Animals and Fire Elementals retain the existing chance to receive a temporary 7 AB boost during combat.
  • Balors and Pit Fiends retain their visual updates.

SPELLS AND SUMMONS

• Mass spells such as Mass Haste, Mass Bull's Strength, or Mass Cat's Grace no longer affect summons. Regular AoE spells continue to have an effect.

• Applying Haste or Mass Haste to a character now results in their summons receiving a 50% speed increase for the spell's duration.

So the reasons being are quite simply that summons (Also beyond those listed here), continue to quite simply break the game. I see this repeatedly when watching PCs in the game client, and I know that 95% of those reading this have direct experience of this too.

Essentially player characters are superfluous and almost any summoner can simply sail through PvE content behind near invulnerable summons. This doesn't just happen at at high levels, but almost immediately. Game content, and gameplay is trivialized by what I consider to be absurdly overpowered content.

The sequencer update was meant to impact this, though given the resistance and just general drama that followed we agreed to make some changes, and exceptions (see the update above) while we assessed the impact of the change. Well, quite some time has passed now and it's crystal clear that the problem of overpowered summons is still with us. Not only is gameplay a concern, but also performance - pathfinding is a big part of performance issue, and obviously when dungeons are essentially being run by ai and not players, that does have an effect.

Quite honestly, I could have gone way, way further in curtailing them, but the main fact that stops me from doing so is just how much I admire our current system from a narrative/creative point of view. It is the mechanics of summoning, the interesting and fantastic looking spread of available streams and summons that prevents me from simply reverting to a near vanilla state.
The above changes aren't intended as a solution, and there remain considerable issues to be overcome, such as:

The problem this presents for wizards, who despite all of our additional spells and features for arcane users continue to rely on summons (they really shouldn't have to)
The power of planar conduit.
The issues caused by the fact that some hostile monsters have access to overpowered summons also (throwing at least one Skaljard dungeon entirely out of the CR range it was intended for)
And much, much else.

The reason I wanted to post this though, is that there was a real outcry last time, and what I considered to be quite a visceral reaction, as there often is in such situations.

In this case I very much want to wait before making any rapid adjustments based over the drama of the moment. It's stressful for staff members at such times, especially if they start getting personally flamed for defending changes. In the midst of such a frenzy it is often hard to make balanced decisions, or any decisions at all. I have been asked by staff members not to bring the hammer down on summons yet further (my instinct is absolutely in that direction) and instead give the changes a few months to properly assess. I'm asking the community to do the same; take time to play with the above changes before rushing to forums to demand less/more of them. To this end I've advised staff members not to engage with feedback on this topic until an appropriate transition period has passed, maybe 10 weeks? Players are welcome to post here of course, but outside of addressing actual bugs I won't be engaging, and have encouraged staff to avoid doing so too.

Essentially, give this update time to settle.

Finally I want to thank the player volunteers that run the wiki. We all rely on it so very much, and I know some people still don't realise it is done, for the most part, by volunteers outside of our actual staff. I know changes like this demand changes there, and that can be a headache. It's such a fantastic resource that we shouldn't take for granted.

I feel like you don't understand how this usually works. If you nerf summons, all that's going to do is make people play less of the classes that rely on them, right? There are already so few people who play these classes because there are other classes that do anything they can, but better, with better things, and who -can- also solo the content they want.

All this is doing is putting wizards, cloistered clerics, and sorcerers into an even worse position, and we're going to see even -less- of them than we have been already, because you're making playing these so much harder.

Why is it so difficult for you as a developer, to be able to realize that before you do things like this, maybe you should take the time to help these other classes and people who rely purely on summons, to be more capable before to pull the plug? All this does is make the people already playing these classes have an even harder time.

And before anyone says 'Well the RP is what should matter more!" I would agree. Except mechanics also exist, and making something even less fun to play is going to make people far less likely to put in the options.

I don't understand why it's so hard to do things in an order that won't make it so much worse for certain people before it gets better. I want to understand the thought process.

Edit: This doesn't even take into account how for PVP even, playing a DC caster is so useless due to how high of saves people get. Not to mention how much worse this is going to be with the currently proposed enchanting system update where throwing +Universal save is going to make it so that people will need to crit-fail across the board in order to fail 95% of all spells that wizards/clerics/sorcs get

So not only are they less viable in PVE, this is going to gut already gutted classes in PVP. And again. 'The server shouldn't exist around balance for PVP.' I get it. But again, you're making it worse while handing other classes so many tools to absolutely demolish anything in their path.

[Paint]

If this leads to finally interrogating the wizard issue and making them fun, effective characters that can contribute to a party beyond a few buffs and _mords I'm all for this.

The locus of power of any character should be the character itself. Summons should be a tool available in your tool kit; not the only lifeline that makes your entire class viable to play at all to begin with.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Does reverting balance changes affect runic sequencers, i.e. will we be able to cast Spell Resistance and Spell Mantle on our summons again?

[kirisin]

If this leads to finally interrogating the wizard issue and making them fun, effective characters that can contribute to a party beyond a few buffs and _mords I'm all for this.

The locus of power of any character should be the character itself. Summons should be a tool available in your tool kit; not the only lifeline that makes your entire class viable to play at all to begin with.

Hard agree

Do I think the change is good... difficult to say leaning to yes.
Do I like it, No but I hope it leads to some introspection on my class.

[Kohuda]

If this leads to no changes for wizards I'll be mildly disappointed, but I'm prepared for it.

[Iceborn]

This seems out of order.
I don't mind necessarily a nerf to summon, if casters had something else to rely on.

Not to mention, most summons had no place at all in PvP due to the prevalence and overwhelming power of WoF.

[perseid]

I'm going to be blunt, given the impact the initial changes had on minion balance I don't have the faith the other posters do that this will somehow open a gateway to fixing casters like Wiz. Rather, I don't understand the world where pve minion balance was even a major concern when most pcs can't be bothered to regularly grind money in groups anyway and pvp continues to be a broken mess.

This change just feels like a kick to the classes already relegated to second class pvp citizens who now also get to enjoy a more mediocre pve experience too. My feedback would be that the focus of the update and the update itself are out of tune with the dynamics actually affecting the server economy and overall player experience while also signaling a determination to ride whatever paradigm is being chased since the sequencer update out to a bitter end.

[Beary Nice]

You're telling me that I can only apply one sequencer that covers maybe 15% of what I'd like to put on a summon, and that I can't apply simple "mass bull/cat/owl" to my summons because they help me to clear content that is irrelevant and easy to clear with even one weapon master?

Have you seen Spellsword? Warlock?

Are we playing the same game?

I play a character without Conduit or Mummy Dust, and scrolls of greater create undead with those buffs are my lifeline. Now you're telling me that because "the team" created content that can be cleared by summons that you yourself validated, I can no longer even prop up my baseline summons with magical scrolls that I created specifically to play around the rules you implemented?

This just reinforces my belief that this server doesn't respect player time in any way.

[Edited. Please keep your posts civil.]

[Hazard]

I was really hoping Arelith would eventually revert the summoning/buff changes entirely and just let us cast our own spells on our own summons again.

This is so not that.

[Itikar]

After all these months and experience with the summon changes since sequencer introduction, my feedback is that I do not like such a streamlined system. I used to love playing totem druids and go around doing average PvE content with the swarm, but part of the fun came also from how I could tailor the buffs for the content or just how I could be creative with them. After the change that feature disappeared and so I stopped playing druids or summoners in general. After this change I think I will just avoid summoner classes like the plague. But there are other classes I like more, so, ultimately, it is not a big deal. Overall, this means for me that I will simply experience even less PvE, because with the other classes, once I am level 30 I rarely touch most PvE content, since I like other aspects of the server more.

Sincerely, the trivialization of PvE content is not something that concerns me much, when the main focus of the server are RP, PvP and crafting. I have seldom met any players who regarded PvE as anything more than farming, so I doubt the focus of the community will ever change. Consequently, changes that make farming more annoying, or even worse, nerf and alter entire classes for this sake, are unlikely to be well received. It is not that the change is bad or good (well, I would lie if I said it is good, but I can recognize that it is consistent with the stated goals and design choices), the matter is that there is a clear and deep disconnect between how you, Irongron, see PvE on the server and how almost everybody else here does.

I think that this is the real crux of the matter.

[Kythana]

This is one of those changes that I am truly, and honestly, baffled by.

I think wizards would very much like to use their toolkit, but when a vast array of their spells suck, and do flat out nothing towards the hyper inflated hp and save bloat of endgame mobs, like... What else do you expect them to do? Why not tune that firstly and allow players to feasibly use non-summon options?

I think there is a vast disconnect from how Arelith is actually played, and how developers think it is played, and the end result is something like this.

You still will be taking summons. They are still going to be infinitely powerful for pve because of how the content is designed.

And if you think that a change like this will lead to the rise of more player grouping, I'm afraid you're in for a surprise as well.

[nikoko]

please make wizards not suck.

Genuinely, the only reason they rely on summons is because they have nothing else going for them.

DC casting is mainly a joke, and you don't have enough spellslots as a wizard to continue casting damage spells through a dungeon without resting, excluding a chance your arcane flux procs and you pew out one IGMS or meteor swarm maybe. Otherwise you're stuck casting basic cantrips that do like 30 damage per turn.

My suggestion would be to do something akin to a defiler where you have a % refund chance for spells that goes down the higher circle you cast, while casting arcane flux allows you to have a free spell refund or temporarily gives you higher % refund chance like divine power does for defilers. You can add a few flavor changes for each specializations to maybe, maybe make anything beyond Ench Spec viable to use! I don't know how the balance would work around that, but while playing defiler I found the refund mechanic fun, which is ultimately the goal of any class - to be fun.

[Subtext]

I don't want to just complain.

I think a nerf to Warlock summons was very much needed. Their kit was overall incredibly strong and could outclass player builds on their own even without a full fledged inficaster backing that summon up.

I'd also really wish the issues with wizards and sorcerers would have been addressed first before deciding on this sweeping change. Particulary disallowing mass zoo spells and mass haste is a pretty harsh nerf for wizards in particular since they actually have steady and reliable access to it.
I would genuinely appreciate a change that would allow those classes to better stand on their own without a need for summon but as it stands, especially wizards by and large run out of steam too quickly. Even spellbound wands don't change that - even though they certainly are a nice supplement.

Anyway. To stay in the spirit of this nerf, I've tested the following spells and they still buff summons:

Protection from Spells
Magic Aura against Alignment
Good Hope (As from the Enchanter's signature spell)

I'd vaguely expect other spells to also still work like Mind Blank, Aura of Vitality and others and I assume it was an oversight to not disable them for summons.

[Biolab00]

Wizards are always a powerhouse if you know what you're doing.
It was never about summons like Planar Conduit nor Mummy dusts.
I would rather face an Elementalist, Warlock or EVEN a Sorcerer than a Wizard that knows what they are doing.
Most players do not actually realize just how complex Wizard is to play compared to every other classes.
It's never just about DCs nor was it about Summons.
You cannot actually teach someone how to be a 'wizard' because it's more or less inherent in how flexible you are and how well versed you are at this game.
It's a culimination of both experience and flexibility.

And frankly...since the update on Dragons and other improvement of PVE contents.
Martial classes are not capable of SOLO most end game PVE content now save for....Spellsword. These -/Creatures/- are an abomination in their own right.

Casters enjoyed immensely on free cookies and QOL which includes incredibly overpowered summons even after this nerf.
Well, Warlock summons continue to be overpowered but that's a separate issue.

[Beary Nice]

Post edited: be nice

[solar separation]

this might be a bit of an over adjustment since in later levels the summons have a tendency of getting absolutely flattened by enemies, regardless of how warded they are

see: red dragon isle.

i also recall the sequencers being added to reduce time used on buffing up summons, but removing the ability to impact them with mass x spells seems to counteract that entirely.

[For My Next Trick]

Wizards are always a powerhouse if you know what you're doing.
It was never about summons like Planar Conduit nor Mummy dusts.
I would rather face an Elementalist, Warlock or EVEN a Sorcerer than a Wizard that knows what they are doing.
Most players do not actually realize just how complex Wizard is to play compared to every other classes.
It's never just about DCs nor was it about Summons.
You cannot actually teach someone how to be a 'wizard' because it's more or less inherent in how flexible you are and how well versed you are at this game.
It's a culimination of both experience and flexibility.

And frankly...since the update on Dragons and other improvement of PVE contents.
Martial classes are not capable of SOLO most end game PVE content now save for....Spellsword. These -/Creatures/- are an abomination in their own right.

Casters enjoyed immensely on free cookies and QOL which includes incredibly overpowered summons even after this nerf.
Well, Warlock summons continue to be overpowered but that's a separate issue.

So here's the thing. Wizards rely almost exclusively on spells that affect DC's. Anyone who is properly set up to fight people, especially with the changes coming in the PGCC, can hit saving throws that are easily in the +high 20's to mid 30's. You can more or less have 2 ability scores, + Universal save, discipline and spellcraft on all your gear, before you even talk about adding runes onto things.

DC's are already so questionable against anyone who knows what they are doing in PVP that most of the time it won't really do much of anything. I've played wizards for years. It's my favorite class. And even in PVE it's been hurting for a very long time, PVP doubly so, and it'll be made far worse with the new changes being expected from the enchanting updates.

So yes, I don't know what I'm talking about. And sure, if you're showing up warded to fight somebody who isn't ready and isn't geared, you're going to do horrible things. But from a PVP perspective most people are going to laugh at a wizard who is relying on DC's, or god help you IGMS.

It isn't a question of how skilled you are if the literal numbers in the video game say you only succeed 5% of the time with your best capable spells.

As for PVE, no. Wizards can't really hold their own without people or summons to distract. And typically, there are people who do a lot more consistent damage, have way better consistent effects, and the ability to maintain higher damage outputs, than if the wizard queued up all their spell slots for control, DMG, etc. There are simply more things that do the job better than a wizard. The reason why wizards tend to get relegated to buff bots, is because it's most of the time one of the few niches they can still fill without being outshined by other things - and even then it's only for things like mass hastes and mass zoo buffs.

Anything a wizard can do there are classes who can do it better. Hell, even clerics can do most of what a wizard can do, better than a wizard can do it with the domain overhauls, except they also get to heal and can stack even -better- wards on top of it, save for mass haste and mords/breaches. So I'm sorry that I don't know what you're talking about.

Even spells that have attack rolls to hit, wizards don't do all that great. You can put more points into DEX to have ranged touch AB, but your AB is still low. These -can- work, but often the damage on them also isn't significant enough to stop something from blendering you.

The point is that this is still a change that makes people who rely on summons for PVE and potentially PVP, to be worse at both of those things, when they weren't already great and fantastic to begin with, and were already hurting and sub-par. You can try and say "WELL IM JUST GOOD ENOUGH THAT I DON'T NEED IT" and I'm happy for you. That doesn't make this less bad.

[perseid]

As an addition to thoughts, including my own, that were already posted... I'd also note that in a lot of situations this makes mass zoo wards largely without purpose. Lots of casters go 27/3 meaning that mass zoos from them are easier to dispel than those a mundane character provides to themselves.

[RedGiant]

I was really hoping Arelith would eventually revert the summoning/buff changes entirely and just let us cast our own spells on our own summons again.

This is so not that.

This. Bring back the intuitive game-play.

But also this.

Iron, I love you, I really do. I will patiently see how this goes. But please don't join team summons hate, let alone captain it. Summoning powerful creatures is both a DnD and Fantasy staple. I had actually stopped complaining about the changes, because I, for one, could actually level a rogue past the gods-awful levels 1-10 or so by spending consumables instead of an award! Some people here think that is a problem. Dooon't listen to them.