Summon Adjustments

[Chloe123]

I think casters with finite spell slots need a serious looking into in general to make them playing fun in general, but just looking at the summons for now:

1) One of the main issue they have is keeping agro. If you use cast AOE spell, and that spell doesn't disable/ kill everything, you'll be running around like a headless chicken. You'll be also running around if you cast a spell at an enemy your summon hasn't hit yet. To combat this a spell to give your summons a weak AOE aura could go a long way, I believe.

Is that the change to let summon auto guard you reverted too? If not the aggro issue is somehow get fixed by this change.

[Algol]

It's not but it's a bit unrealible due to summons size I believe. I have been attacked by larger enemies while I'm right next to my slaad.

[Chloe123]

Imho the guard update greatly helps casters to avoid aggro from enemies, occasionally get targeted is durable.

[-XXX-]

I will admit that i have not done Paush run with Wiz / Sorc before but, i know that they exist since our IG PCs ( other players ) met each other a few times with a hello in the past.

Yes, in the past tarpitting Paush with summons and shooting him with a gonne was a viable tactic.
But even that isn't wiz/sorc specific - anybody with scrolls could do it
Nor is it a metric of summon power - no summon is strong enough to hurt Paush in any meaningful way. The point was presenting fodder to distract him while the toon was shooting the gonne.

TBH, I don't believe that any build should be able to solo Paush, just for the record

[Jencent]

I find this extremely hard to believe actually.
Planar conduit can still breeze through most epic dungeon and when they falls halfway, you just need to pop a gate summon or Elementals which comes with multiple cast.
I've still seen Wizards charging together with their summon and just spam cantrip, level 9 spells on a whim when they triggered the flux. Some of them, having the right spell focus, continues to spam color spray or blindness/deaf which continues to be effective on some epic dungeon.

I mean...if your summoner cannot even clear Viper monk, it's probably something to do with how you play rather than what you have. I have come down to this fact because Wizard / Warlock / Sorcerer are the only class that can effectively solo Paush which means, they can and still can, clear all content. I know these because I've done it and currently, I'm playing mundane because i find caster classes with summons, do not give much satisfaction anymore when i solo run those dungeon.

Feels more like Casters got used to "braindead walk their Summons" and now they have to actually use their kit (as limited as it may be) and they can't handle it.

It's as the above has written, the reliance on it and what we always consider, click and stand back.

I mean, this is pretty simple that when you ask a two handed mundane, to follow you ( also a two hand mundane ) to Manor mourn, both of you will get shredded within a couple of engagement due to low AC
But if one of you is a Warlock / Wizard with summon? That's an entirely different story.

Welp. NOT EVERY caster are pure Wiz/Warlock (I still thing Lock op as hell). My bard/pm have a lot more problems with dungeons than my DD. As soon as i hit +3 regen on DD - all pve become afk mode. All what i did - mage armor and shield/barskin/zoo from pots and scrolls. Wth higher lvls my DD become unkillable machine of farming.

-/17++ EDR with 72-74 AC, 32 SR, 9+ regen, 39-49₊₂ on short time.and 760+HP with 100~ temp HP each 30 sec.
With 31-36 damage per swing ON 12-20x2 weapon. Unlimited haste with 60% uptime. Beside SR i also have evasion and u-dodge, what makes it more like a joke over any mob, even in abyss.

On the other side... My summoner, who HEAVY relies on summons and if they got died (they will and ppretty fast) - i have to run away and rest (i do hope here will be no any ambushes.), rebuff all summons AND ME and try once more. As bard/pm i have no flux or any summons beside my undeads what got a nerf.

Boss fight - its another joke. Running around boss after evey casted spell with hope to not die untill my summons get aggro from me.

With latest nerf of summons (undead too) i even an't handle low epic dungeons, when my DD just rolling through the same content.

[Chloe123]

-/17++ EDR with 72-74 AC, 32 SR, 9+ regen, 39-49₊₂ on short time.and 760+HP with 100~ temp HP each 30 sec.
With 31-36 damage per swing ON 12-20x2 weapon. Unlimited haste with 60% uptime. Beside SR i also have evasion and u-dodge, what makes it more like a joke over any mob, even in abyss.

That sounds like op as hell, why my DD only has around 50 ac with tower shield, I look at the pinned build sheet and the ftr/wm/dd build there also only has around 50 ac :/ Are we playing the same game

[Jencent]

-/17++ EDR with 72-74 AC, 32 SR, 9+ regen, 39-49₊₂ on short time.and 760+HP with 100~ temp HP each 30 sec.
With 31-36 damage per swing ON 12-20x2 weapon. Unlimited haste with 60% uptime. Beside SR i also have evasion and u-dodge, what makes it more like a joke over any mob, even in abyss.

That sounds like op as hell, why my DD only has around 50 ac with tower shield, I look at the pinned build sheet and the ftr/wm/dd build there also only has around 50 ac :/ Are we playing the same game

Its my own build. Not from build sheet.

Also its 64-74AC. Coz its more effective for that build to sit in IE. TBH i wanna to redone this build, because of last changes of swash and other. I took him only because of free feat and +4 damage from int.

+1 AC against single target, coz of dodge feat. Also you can have +1 more AB if you will take +4 weapon, not +3 as me. Also after few changes of weapon, you even can 2 hand build for a bit more damage, but you will lose around 6 ac for that.

Also you can have +1 more AC from shield, if you will abuse swash damage. Because game do not check stat of the shield everysecond. Just chuk you pot and take large shield with +6 ac, not your small one with just +5. So at the end it will be 64-74+1 ac against target your are hitting.

[Diegovog]

I have come down to this fact because Wizard / Warlock / Sorcerer are the only class that can effectively solo Paush which means, they can and still can, clear all content. I know these because I've done it

I will admit that i have not done Paush run with Wiz / Sorc before but, i know that they exist since our IG PCs ( other players ) met each other a few times with a hello in the past.
Well, if i truly decides to trial and error, it's a matter of time before i get how it can be done, just that I am not yet doing so.
Perhaps my next PC

Your whole argument that sorcerers and wizards can solo Paush (and therefore STILL CAN clear all server content) is based on something you HEARD people tell you, from YEARS ago Paush, PRE-NERF on summons? And because of that you're arguing that wizards and sorcerers are STILL FINE?

[Jencent]

I have come down to this fact because Wizard / Warlock / Sorcerer are the only class that can effectively solo Paush which means, they can and still can, clear all content. I know these because I've done it

I will admit that i have not done Paush run with Wiz / Sorc before but, i know that they exist since our IG PCs ( other players ) met each other a few times with a hello in the past.
Well, if i truly decides to trial and error, it's a matter of time before i get how it can be done, just that I am not yet doing so.
Perhaps my next PC

Your whole argument that sorcerers and wizards can solo Paush (and therefore STILL CAN clear all server content) is based on something you HEARD people tell you, from YEARS ago Paush, PRE-NERF on summons? And because of that you're arguing that wizards and sorcerers are STILL FINE?

I saw the vid of this(Wiz without gear killing pause without taking any damage), but it was pre-nerf Paush and killing via gun. Which is not work against him anymore. Coz he now have a lot of touch AC.

[Xerah]

there is an equivalency here I think that is not being appreciated.

The issue is that there is a difference when the damage dealer dies. With the melee, when that damage dealer dies, everything stops. With summons, when the summon dies, you can run away and hopefully save yourself. I'd be willing to bet that's part of the issue that the team is trying to adjust which is also why things keep getting added to make that summoner an active person (spell flux, unlimited cantrips).

Could melee potentially do content pretty easily still? Yep, sure. I have a DD similar to Jencent's built to be extremely survivable. I certainly find that more tactically interesting than sitting behind summons. Might that just be me? Sure, but taking out the personal side of things of how this affects me, I can completely understand why this was done.

This also opens design space to real summon focused classes, like conj spec wizard. Maybe that's worth looking at again since it's the only way to haste your summons now, or maybe it needs a few more boons to make the restrictions worth it. People do like this archetype so it's worth investing some time to develop options, but it's just way too ubiquitous that you weren't giving up anything to get those strong summons.

You don't have to waste your time trying to convince me though as I'm firmly in the opposite camp. I'm not the one who makes any of these decisions.

[Jencent]

The issue is that there is a difference when the damage dealer dies.

This days its really hard, because of guard and most melee dd have +/- fine surviveability by itself.

Summons in MOST fights now (beside few streams) cant survive even few flurry of enemies of the same level. 14 lvl wiz with tiger now cant even close writs for his level without pain in the Snuggybear and spending a lot of time and money fro summons warding.

And you always have a risk do not survive at first few turns of combat. Coz some mobs can crit for like 60+ damage and tiger have 120hp... So... Just few crits and your SINGLE guard dies. ATM familiars even more durable than summons. But not all casters have summons of the same level.

[-XXX-]

The issue is that there is a difference when the damage dealer dies. With the melee, when that damage dealer dies, everything stops. With summons, when the summon dies, you can run away and hopefully save yourself. I'd be willing to bet that's part of the issue that the team is trying to adjust which is also why things keep getting added to make that summoner an active person (spell flux, unlimited cantrips).

Could melee potentially do content pretty easily still? Yep, sure. I have a DD similar to Jencent's built to be extremely survivable. I certainly find that more tactically interesting than sitting behind summons. Might that just be me? Sure, but taking out the personal side of things of how this affects me, I can completely understand why this was done.

TBH, I don't find Leeroy Dwarven Defender herding monsters Benny Hill style through several dungeon map screens only to finally make a stand and pacman through the entire swarm against all expectations more interesting than a mage hiding behind summons.

A melee build with the aformentionned stats doesn't really risk dying unless they're fighting something that would melt away any summons that we currently have several times over (and even then - dying or fleeing - it's all defeat just in a different form)
We've reached a point when we're casually talking about 700hp 60 AC and 54 Ab like if it was a normal thing, but a fraction of those stats when it comes to summons gets regarded as heresy - why, aren't they supposed to fight the same stuff?

The thing with summons is that they mess with action economy. This is extremely hard to balance.
At the same time, action quality matters here and the design philosophy appears to be lesser action quality for builds with more actions (summoner builds) and greater action quality for builds with less actions (melee builds).
IMO, this is not wrong, but I think that we're at a point where this has been overcompensated in favor of builds with less actions.

Summon adjustments are fine, but I think it's also time to start shaving those melee build stats too.

[Jencent]

THis.

Even my melee PC cheap as hell. All wards beside Shadow SHield and Barskin come from magic items. So i even do not spend money for wardings. Beside than pot, at cost of... 84 gold?.. And Shadow Shield FOR REALLY BIG FIGHTS. Which is cost for... 1k per scroll? For 15_min duration.

ATM my wizard spend more time and moeny for warding my summons.
Coz warding your summons now blocked behind artcrafting and other things.

[-XXX-]

Another thing that shouldn't get disregarded IMO is the class BAB.

Cleric/Druid/Shaman/Fav Soul having access to the same summons as Wiz/Sorc doesn't seem right.
4 APR melee onslaught isn't comparable to 1-2 cantrip casts. This alone would warrant summons one tier higher for classes with low BAB.

[Chloe123]

Another thing that shouldn't get disregarded IMO is the class BAB.

Cleric/Druid/Shaman/Fav Soul having access to the same summons as Wiz/Sorc doesn't seem right.
4 APR melee onslaught isn't comparable to 1-2 cantrip casts. This alone would warrant summons one tier higher for classes with low BAB.

Yep, like my melee 2h shaman/barb auto guarded by elemental swarm and deal as much damage as a fighter?

[Algol]

Having summon strength scale with casting stat could help with it. Perhaps they could be a tier lower unless the caster has 20 hard casting stat. Or have them gain ab/ac with stats.

[Biolab00]

Having always played a Wizard, Sorcerer and then Warlock ( since the introduction several years ago ), i supposed that it's difficult to change my mindset since i've most probably squeeze what they could possibly do and the only reason i stick to Warlock after their introduction is because as most of you probably agree, they've infinite haste and is actually fun to play because of major QOL despite having borderline damage in both PVE and PVP ( compared to True flame(previously) and now, Elementalist )

Perhaps the reason that i find mundane is much harsher to play is because i'm too used to playing spellcasters. I've just begun a mundane class, i think, sometime 6 months ago. The build that Jen wrote above, i didn't go for DD but go for Rogue / Loremaster / Fighter instead, you can go for Rogue / Weaponmaster / Fighter as well and achieve about 60AC ( pre-expertise ) and do insane damage as well with 48 AB to 50 AB pre battle buff like ( prayer / battle tide etc )

Though even with that build, making use of Hide/MS and sneak corner, I find it difficult to beat some other dungeons that i used to be able to as a spellcaster. That's probably what made me wrote all these.

When facing group of monsters, it's incredible to just toss a 'fear' spell when hidden and let your summoned creature do the work or grease spell / entangle to slow them down and let your monster do the work...or even confusion.

1 CC spell per engagement (you begin first ) before deploying your summon forward is the way to go, especially when you're hidden. It makes a huge and absolutely big difference.
Whether you choose to toss magic damaging spell next or so, depends on how you work around it ofc.

As for the Paush thingy, i still believe wizard / sorc can do it. It's just that my current PC story has not ended and i'm liking him very much so, i'll postpone the trial and error until then. I mean...we're fighting against NPCs...they follow AI pattern and it's not hard to manipulate unless DM decides to intervene of course...and i had that happened to me before. ( whoever that DM was, my undying orog had fun, it's real. )

Edit : Regarding the AI thing that i wrote above, some may argue that if you can manipulate AI as a spellcaster, you can equally do so as a Mundane. But...it's not true because, you need actual summons to control and do all sorts of command to keep enemies 'occupied'. The more number of summons that you have, the better it is against AI.
A spellcaster with summon should not be fighting like a Mundane do.
And...a pseudo warrior with a summon? That's even more badass.
And finally, multiple cast of summons are important, Gate / Summon IX, Conduit or even Elemental Meteor ( EDK ).

Even my melee PC cheap as hell. All wards beside Shadow SHield and Barskin come from magic items. So i even do not spend money for wardings. Beside than pot, at cost of... 84 gold?.. And Shadow Shield FOR REALLY BIG FIGHTS. Which is cost for... 1k per scroll? For 15min duration.

I mean...magic items are not cheap. Potion of Bull strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance and Wands of it...Wand of Barkskin, Potion of Aid, Potion of Shield, Improved Invisibility Wand...Death Ward Wand, Potion of Freedom, Potion of True strike...just check every shops in Arelith, all the brewed potions are there for a reason and all for mundane.
I can't fathom how you think that it's cheap for Mundane when clearly, there're market specifically THERE just for them.

ATM my wizard spend more time and moeny for warding my summons.
Coz warding your summons now blocked behind artcrafting and other things.

...I'm just speechless here. I don't even want to go on this part.
If you are spending more money on warding your summon(s) than a mundane spend on themselves.
Are you playing in the same Arelith as i am?

And to what Xerah wrote above about Summons able to allow the Spellcaster to escape? It's definitely real because...that's how AI are. Even a small animate dead or summon creature III can do wonder if you use it right.
Is that cheesing? Maybe. But when you're out of spell or caught in some places that you like to reserve your spells etc, there're so many arsenal at your control as a spellcaster.

[-XXX-]

When facing group of monsters, it's incredible to just toss a 'fear' spell when hidden and let your summoned creature do the work or grease spell / entangle to slow them down and let your monster do the work...or even confusion.

1 CC spell per engagement (you begin first ) before deploying your summon forward is the way to go, especially when you're hidden. It makes a huge and absolutely big difference.
Whether you choose to toss magic damaging spell next or so, depends on how you work around it ofc.

IMO this nicely sums up the state of summons and wiz/sorc. They work like a charm - might seem overpowered even, for as long as you're facing PvE content of certain challenge rating (often translates into punching down against lower level PvE content for max lvl characters).
The moment a max level spellcaster character with summons faces level appropriate PvE content, their CC spells suddenly get blocked by various immunities or high saves and unless you cheese darkness the summons fold to the sheer stat superiority of spawns designed to represent a challenge for AB50 AC60 mundane builds.

There is a commonality that applies to both spellcaster builds and summons - their level progression isn't seamless. It's not a result of simple arithmetic that we can see with melee builds where you simply add up incremental stat boosts.
No, spellcasters make leaps every X levels where they get access to a spell that takes their game one level farther, but that stops at some point (usually around lvl 17-18 where the caster gets access to their entire spellbook). Most spellcaster summoner builds then peak between lvl 21-24 where they get their epic summon feat (they get to vastly outperform their melee counterparts at that level range even), but they plateau from there while melee builds still get to pile up those stats all the way to lvl 30 and ultimately get to end up on top.

So we can see two instances of imbalance during character level progression here:

• early to mid epic level PvE that get dominated by spellcasters and their summons
• max level PvE and top tier PvP meta that gets stolen by melee/ranged builds

Finally, where summon tactics are concerned - this isn't spellcaster exclusive. Sure, spellcasters get to utilize summons CHEAPER and therefore more liberally, but I honestly don't recall ever having a character who wouldn't end up sitting on a stack of 100 Gate scrolls.

[cornelius_4]

Here is my small account of summon changes since sequencers:

Overall, I'm willing to believe that this will lead to improvements... eventually.

As the sequencers was introduced, I was immeadiately annoyed with not having freedom in chosing spells for summons.
A little later, it was kind of handy to not have to go through the spell casting sequence all the time, balancing things out.
The additional capacity stored in the sequencers, compared to my spellbook is nice too.

Not long after the sequencers were introduced, the summons were buffed significantly. My first thought was that it was done over the top, though I understood it as a temporary thing, to be on the safe side of the communitys reaction.
Maybe it took a little longer than it should, before this was reverted .

(I participated in the forums at the time, but I belive you survived my part of the pot stirring).

The overall buff you could do yourself was generally stronger than what the sequencers give, so with vanilla, or near-vanilla summons, I would think that they are weaker now than before the sequencers.

So it seems like, some summons should have more potential power in time. My guess is that the preferred power of summons lies between before and vanilla, but closer to vanilla than before.

I still miss the option to cast some things on them. Can't help but think I personally would prefer both the option to cast SOME spells, but leave the bulk of the sequence to the sequencers.

This helps you feel the strengths and consequences of the path you take.
Infini casters might sometimes chose to use smaller buffs over a charge on a sequencer, against lesser foes - the wizard might too using spells/consumables at a slight cost, but then the higher appraise skill kind of made up for it and such.
Sometimes only mage armor had been dispelled and using a scroll was a little nicer than a sequencer charge. Small things in terms of power, but the variance and freedom gives higher enjoyment.

(Good ideas from me: lvl 1-3 spells could be free for all to apply, but higher levels are locked to sequencers, though the sequencers still apply lower levels too).

Should all turn out between ok to good in time, probably with some people getting caught in terrible positions along the way, but over time finding a way to have fun still, as seems to be life here (heh).

[Iceborn]

Having summon strength scale with casting stat could help with it. Perhaps they could be a tier lower unless the caster has 20 hard casting stat. Or have them gain ab/ac with stats.

This is something I'd like to see more of, to incentivize further spending into main casting ability and devalue the absurb con meta that has been around for ages.

[Jencent]

I mean...magic items are not cheap. Potion of Bull strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance and Wands of it...Wand of Barkskin, Potion of Aid, Potion of Shield, Improved Invisibility Wand...Death Ward Wand, Potion of Freedom, Potion of True strike...just check every shops in Arelith, all the brewed potions are there for a reason and all for mundane.
I can't fathom how you think that it's cheap for Mundane when clearly, there're market specifically THERE just for them.

...I'm just speechless here. I don't even want to go on this part.
If you are spending more money on warding your summon(s) than a mundane spend on themselves.
Are you playing in the same Arelith as i am?

All zoo i have from items (6 rings for STR, 3 belts for CON, INT from armor, shield from item (5x3=15 casts with in tottal 1h~ duration.)) cat from bottle for around 100g per bottle? Its around 1₃ killed mobs. Same for barskin.

I never use Freedom of Move and all other rare pots like heal or TS pot 24/7, coz i not need it. And i still have 100~ pots of TS, heal and other just in case.

And all of this itmes with buffs i dropped by my self. And now i can cast it all the time without spending anything.

So about my mage? I have to buy scrolls to make items for summons buffing. Same for spell components. I have to grind it in special place and always have shit tons of it. Or just do not use epci spells or anything higher than 6th lvl of spells.

I dont need to heal or repair on my mundain, coz i have 10lvls of ftr and also have passive 9hp regen 24/7. So atm my mund melee just afk farming machine for most of epic dungs. My caster? Well.. I do hope my summons and me do not die while im trying to cast something.

[Security_Blanket]

The issue is that there is a difference when the damage dealer dies. With the melee, when that damage dealer dies, everything stops. With summons, when the summon dies, you can run away and hopefully save yourself. I'd be willing to bet that's part of the issue that the team is trying to adjust which is also why things keep getting added to make that summoner an active person (spell flux, unlimited cantrips).

I don't feel like this argument should be taken into account, casters can more easily escape danger? We have potions, scrolls, and wands, I've had very little trouble escaping danger on my mundane characters. Invisibility potions/wands, haste potions/wands, then heal pots, where is the difficulty? There is probably a 90% chance or more that if a fight in PvE is not going my way on my mundane character that I can and have often made my escape, in one round you can Haste pot and Invisibility pot and run away, get out of combat and portal out, if you even need to portal.

[Jencent]

The issue is that there is a difference when the damage dealer dies. With the melee, when that damage dealer dies, everything stops. With summons, when the summon dies, you can run away and hopefully save yourself. I'd be willing to bet that's part of the issue that the team is trying to adjust which is also why things keep getting added to make that summoner an active person (spell flux, unlimited cantrips).

I don't feel like this argument should be taken into account, casters can more easily escape danger? We have potions, scrolls, and wands, I've had very little trouble escaping danger on my mundane characters. Invisibility potions/wands, haste potions/wands, then heal pots, where is the difficulty? There is probably a 90% chance or more that if a fight in PvE is not going my way on my mundane character that I can and have often made my escape, in one round you can Haste pot and Invisibility pot and run away, get out of combat and portal out, if you even need to portal.

Agree. I can run way on my mundy in 90% cases even without consumables.

[Gibbaddy]

Revert the stat changes, or allow us to buff them with mass spells. Removing both was too much.

[Naghast]

Revert the stat changes, or allow us to buff them with mass spells. Removing both was too much.

I'd personally like to see those ammo-limited casters being given some actually meaningful and sustainable casting power for longer ventures but idk how it's supposed to be given without straight up giving them passive spellslot regeneration or someshit like that.