Summon Adjustments

[Jencent]

So... Now Just a single wand to Counter any undead summoner. Nice. Before it was about who have more wands, but now one wand is enough to Counter ~ 4pms.

[MRFTW]

So... Now Just a single wand to Counter any undead summoner. Nice. Before it was about who have more wands, but now one wand is enough to Counter ~ 4pms.

Wands of Halt Undead have been doing this for ages now, no?

I've always preferred that to killing or attempting to unsummon undead, as the paralysed undead forces decision making on the opponent's end. Obviously, PvP here is crap but the principle of allowing your opponent as many opportunities to make mistakes as possible applies just as much in this case as it does in something like chess.

[chris a gogo]

If someone is playing a PM/Wizard they have a ton of undead summons anyway and don't use wands or scrolls of animate dead.
They have
Create greater from necro focus.
Create greater from PM feat.
Mummy dust feat.
Create undead feat.
Animate dead feat.
Spells as many as they want to slot of create greater/create/animate.
Plus PC.

Never had to use a single scroll or wand to summon undead on a PM/Wiz.

So this really won't effect them.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

WoF and/or summons on their own is another issue entirely. we're just fixing the bug.

[Jencent]

If someone is playing a PM/Wizard they have a ton of undead summons anyway and don't use wands or scrolls of animate dead.
They have
Create greater from necro focus.
Create greater from PM feat.
Mummy dust feat.
Create undead feat.
Animate dead feat.
Spells as many as they want to slot of create greater/create/animate.
Plus PC.

Never had to use a single scroll or wand to summon undead on a PM/Wiz.

So this really won't effect them.

You can have 40~ charges in a single wand for 3k_. So... How much spells of summons you can get?

[-XXX-]

items have a caster level attached to them, and you can see them by examining the item.

that UCL exceeds the caster level given by the item is full stop a bug that was just never fixed

that CL vs dispel exceeds caster level given by the item is full stop a bug that was just never fixed too

I'm sure that not missing that one this time around would be greatly appreciated

[Biolab00]

There're years old Topic about Dispel checks for Casters and Mundanes which is actually off topic regarding Summon Adjustments.
So in short, i've paste the link -

I believe that Mundane having full dispel levels from consumables belongs to the original game. as intended from Beamdog.
Of course, the information is quite outdated because it's no longer at CL22 but CL23 for caster dispel before spell focus.
But the idea is still there that, making Mundane having the dispel check of item is almost equivalent to Dispel check of 0.
It's going to break alot alot alot alot of things, including soloing for Mundanes / semi-Mundanes across the board.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=29727&p=238130

Particularly, Scurvy Cur wrote the explanation very well.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=31543&p=248450

[-XXX-]

Particularly, Scurvy Cur wrote the explanation very well.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=31543&p=248450

That's not the bug I was talking about.

The actual formula is:

1d20 + dispel's caster level vs. 11 + creator's effective level.

Creator's effective level being:

1. The current casting class level of the creator, if cast from a spell book.
2. The item's caster level, if cast from an item.
3. The current hit dice of the creator if the effect was created by any other means involving spells.2da.

But 2. never got used in original NWN and this somewhat carried over to EE, because everybody thought it was supposed to work that way or regarded the bug as a feature at that point for some reason or dunno.
When Beamdog tried to fix this, they botched it completely and server side fix was needed - that's what the linked thread was all about. It doesn't really address the fact that when using item magical effects only 1. or 3. gets used to figure out the creator's effective level vs. dispels (in case of items and consumables it should actually be 2.)

But here we are discussing an UCL fix for a literal non-issue using a principle that gets grossly overlooked for the majority of NWN existence.
Want to implement a bug fix that says a lvl 8 Create Greater Undead spell scroll produces wet paper UCL4 undead because that's what the item's CL (15) says it should do? Sure! We don't want bugs in the game after all!
But IMO the same standard should also be applied to other stuff and a lvl 3 ZOO potion should have a dispel resistance of 16 because that's also what the item's CL (5) says it should be.

[Ironsides]

There're years old Topic about Dispel checks for Casters and Mundanes which is actually off topic regarding Summon Adjustments.
So in short, i've paste the link -

I believe that Mundane having full dispel levels from consumables belongs to the original game. as intended from Beamdog.
Of course, the information is quite outdated because it's no longer at CL22 but CL23 for caster dispel before spell focus.
But the idea is still there that, making Mundane having the dispel check of item is almost equivalent to Dispel check of 0.
It's going to break alot alot alot alot of things, including soloing for Mundanes / semi-Mundanes across the board.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=29727&p=238130

Particularly, Scurvy Cur wrote the explanation very well.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=31543&p=248450

If the goal for nerfing summons was to make it more desirable for a caster-type to team up with a fighter-type, would not the same logic apply to nerfing consumable dispel defense to make it more desirable for a fighter-type to team up with a caster-type?

[chris a gogo]

by Jencent » 06 Apr 2024 14:29

chris a gogo wrote: ↑06 Apr 2024 10:16
If someone is playing a PM/Wizard they have a ton of undead summons anyway and don't use wands or scrolls of animate dead.
They have
Create greater from necro focus.
Create greater from PM feat.
Mummy dust feat.
Create undead feat.
Animate dead feat.
Spells as many as they want to slot of create greater/create/animate.
Plus PC.

Never had to use a single scroll or wand to summon undead on a PM/Wiz.

So this really won't effect them.

You can have 40~ charges in a single wand for 3k. So... How much spells of summons you can get?

Lets see my last PM possible castings for undead summons.
20 animate dead
16 create undead.
12 create greater undead.
Just from spells.

Again never needed to cast or slot a single spell as all the spell feats provided all the summons that are needed in any dungeon.

[Kalthariam]

Must be nice.

Stares at 1/day Conduit that cannot be protected

[Kalopsia]

It might be worth comparing necromancers to conjurers with regards to item casting.

A Conjurer that uses a scroll of Summon IX receives an elemental without epic caster level (ECL) scaling, as the item's CL is 17. This makes the summon quite vulnerable at higher levels and results in most conjurers summoning via their spellbook instead.

Meanwhile, a Necromancer can currently use any scroll or wand to summon undead at the highest tier available to them. And since undead use an ECL-independent system, that is as good as it gets, scaling-wise.

It is nigh-impossible to achieve comparable summoner performance in PvE when one variant can (almost) indefinitely resummon their most powerful creatures while the other is limited to a select few spell slots and has to rely on substantially weaker summons once these slots are exhausted.

[Kalthariam]

After the changes, it's not even worth getting scrolls of Summon Monster 9.

You'd be far better off using very short duration gate scrolls. Summon monster 9 is awful even with the Epic Caster Level bonus, it's absolutely useless without it.

Though Gate's not in any better of a situation, but at least the base stats of the mob is a little better.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

items have a caster level attached to them, and you can see them by examining the item.

that UCL exceeds the caster level given by the item is full stop a bug that was just never fixed

that CL vs dispel exceeds caster level given by the item is full stop a bug that was just never fixed too

I'm sure that not missing that one this time around would be greatly appreciated

1. that was also defined in beamdog's codebase before UCL was fully implemented and then further reiterated just recently.
2. this was a balance decision made a while ago to keep mundanes from losing all their buffs to weak dispels and this is still what would happen if we changed this. you'll notice spell strength and duration is still defined by the caster level on the item, something that did not apply to undead consumables.

[-XXX-]

1. that was also defined in beamdog's codebase before UCL was fully implemented and then further reiterated just recently.

2. this was a balance decision made a while ago to keep mundanes from losing all their buffs to weak dispels and this is still what would happen if we changed this. you'll notice spell strength and duration is still defined by the caster level on the item, something that did not apply to undead consumables.

- bug labeled a feature as a balance decision resulting in virtually undispellable ZOO buffs in an environment where unchecked stat bloat has been identified as one of the current balance issues. That might warrant at least a revision of said balance decision.

- since the overwhelming majority of item spells that are being used (and not only by mundanes) are buffs, their spell strength is irrelevant (a CL5 bull's strength increases the stat by the same amount as a CL30 one) and spell duration of the most commonly used buffs is defined in hrs/lvl anyway. The only practical feature that is supposed to be defined by the item's CL when it comes to buffs is dispel resistance, but that isn't the case.

I brought this up only because the way I see it this is the same issue in both cases - we have a magic item producing a spell with a defined CL, but the CL gets disregarded and an effect set to its maximum possible parameters is produced instead.
Now, in one case this gets regarded as a bug, in the other labeled a feature - sure, even this would have been fine had this not been one of the major contributing factiors in the resulting balance skew.

[BlinkDelight]

I don't see the point of summons in PVP anymore, especially since the new Harbinger class can destroy them at will if your not a warlock:

Hex of Rune-breaker

If Hex is placed upon a summoned creature, it is instantly unsummoned. Magical energy used to conjure the creature will be discharged: the Summoner will receive d6 magical damage per HD of summon consumed, max 15d6, (if the summon had over 15HD it will create a Thunder Clap (Medium Sphere Size) effect using Atrocity, Invocation DC at the hexed summon location). Unsummoned Creature does not refresh Dark Claim CD. Warlock Pact Summons are entitled to Will saving throw against Curse to resist the effect.

Don't get me started how this ability will work even if your a level 6 Harbinger and use this ability on a Balor Lord's summon or a White Slaad's summon and automatically works on both. Not to mention a Conjurer Wizard using Dragon Knight or some other specialized runic sequenced Gate creature. One level 6 ability can automatically destroy a level 30's build focus.

Edit: Completely forgot Blackguard's fiendish summon, the backbone of blackguards can just be countered instantly.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Now, in one case this gets regarded as a bug, in the other labeled a feature - sure, even this would have been fine had this not been one of the major contributing factiors in the resulting balance skew.

yes, but if we forced dispel CL from consumables to respect their item caster level, consumable buffs wouldn't be viable anymore. it would kill mundane builds. you would see them losing every buff to Lesser Dispel. mundanes rely on buffs just as much as any caster, but the result would be that gish builds once again are better than mundanes in every way

[MissEvelyn]

Now, in one case this gets regarded as a bug, in the other labeled a feature - sure, even this would have been fine had this not been one of the major contributing factiors in the resulting balance skew.

yes, but if we forced dispel CL from consumables to respect their item caster level, consumable buffs wouldn't be viable anymore. it would kill mundane builds. you would see them losing every buff to Lesser Dispel. mundanes rely on buffs just as much as any caster, but the result would be that gish builds once again are better than mundanes in every way

We're saying it's ridiculous that the caster who drinks that same potion will be easier to dispel than someone who had zero arcane training.

The argument isn't "Remove HD-based Dispel CL from mundanes". But rather: If mundanes get to keep a Dispel CL based on their HIt Dice, then it's more than fair that Casters, who are supposed to be better at all things arcane/divine, get the same treatment.

[MartialHag]

Cap Mundane dispel at 20 HD, no longer affected by Lesser Dispel. Making them virtually immune to Dispels is ridiculous as others already mentioned. Potions are readily available for cheap and people sit on them by the hundreds... could also make the effects scale with CL cause noone cares about 27h buff duration and Casters are irrelevant as is outside of Disjunction and Scribe bots.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

We're saying it's ridiculous that the caster who drinks that same potion will be easier to dispel than someone who had zero arcane training.

The argument isn't "Remove HD-based Dispel CL from mundanes". But rather: If mundanes get to keep a Dispel CL based on their HIt Dice, then it's more than fair that Casters, who are supposed to be better at all things arcane/divine, get the same treatment.

were you around to see the 15 cleric / 7 wm builds in the old days? I bring this up because there was a time when dispels were not usually effective, and the result was some really ridiculous builds. if casters received the same VDCL as their hit die, it would open up options like this again. it's a complex problem

[Chloe123]

I don't see the point of summons in PVP anymore, especially since the new Harbinger class can destroy them at will if your not a warlock:

Hex of Rune-breaker

If Hex is placed upon a summoned creature, it is instantly unsummoned. Magical energy used to conjure the creature will be discharged: the Summoner will receive d6 magical damage per HD of summon consumed, max 15d6, (if the summon had over 15HD it will create a Thunder Clap (Medium Sphere Size) effect using Atrocity, Invocation DC at the hexed summon location). Unsummoned Creature does not refresh Dark Claim CD. Warlock Pact Summons are entitled to Will saving throw against Curse to resist the effect.

Don't get me started how this ability will work even if your a level 6 Harbinger and use this ability on a Balor Lord's summon or a White Slaad's summon and automatically works on both. Not to mention a Conjurer Wizard using Dragon Knight or some other specialized runic sequenced Gate creature. One level 6 ability can automatically destroy a level 30's build focus.

Edit: Completely forgot Blackguard's fiendish summon, the backbone of blackguards can just be countered instantly.

And again, warlock wins!!!

[-XXX-]

yes, but if we forced dispel CL from consumables to respect their item caster level, consumable buffs wouldn't be viable anymore. it would kill mundane builds. you would see them losing every buff to Lesser Dispel. mundanes rely on buffs just as much as any caster, but the result would be that gish builds once again are better than mundanes in every way

I don't believe it would've made them unviable:

• lesser dispels are not everpresent in PvE
• lesser dispels represent the same tempo requirement as a Mord in PvP

To set the record straight: the argumen't isn't that consumables should have lower dispel resistance just for mundanes - the argument is that it should work that way for EVERYBODY.
Avoiding gish builds to take over would then be a matter of curating their spell list (removing ZOO spells from everybody but Shaman/Druid/Wiz/Sorc, etc. for example).

I don't believe this would have killed mundanes, no. We've had a period of super dispellable consumables - players complained and cope was there, but it wasn't any worse that what we're seeing now with summons. While it might be true that melee builds rely on buffs as much as any caster, they benefit from them much more and the stat bloat is real.

The argument for sequencer update was to:

• control summon stat bloat
• address the playpattern of prolonged windup leading to steamrolling through dungeons

...but all of the above applies to melee builds as well! Enter player character sequencers (that they could even craft themselves for improved QoL) with higher dispel resistence that'd confer NEP and death ward, but don't perpetuate nigh dispel immunity for all of their buffs just because their life might suck if they got hit by a stat drain during PvE.

[Jencent]

by Jencent » 06 Apr 2024 14:29

chris a gogo wrote: ↑06 Apr 2024 10:16
If someone is playing a PM/Wizard they have a ton of undead summons anyway and don't use wands or scrolls of animate dead.
They have
Create greater from necro focus.
Create greater from PM feat.
Mummy dust feat.
Create undead feat.
Animate dead feat.
Spells as many as they want to slot of create greater/create/animate.
Plus PC.

Never had to use a single scroll or wand to summon undead on a PM/Wiz.

So this really won't effect them.

You can have 40~ charges in a single wand for 3k. So... How much spells of summons you can get?

Lets see my last PM possible castings for undead summons.
20 animate dead
16 create undead.
12 create greater undead.
Just from spells.

Again never needed to cast or slot a single spell as all the spell feats provided all the summons that are needed in any dungeon.

Its waste of slots to stack your book with UD summons.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

To set the record straight: the argumen't isn't that consumables should have lower dispel resistance just for mundanes - the argument is that it should work that way for EVERYBODY.
Avoiding gish builds to take over would then be a matter of curating their spell list (removing ZOO spells from everybody but Shaman/Druid/Wiz/Sorc, etc. for example).

I don't believe this would have killed mundanes, no. We've had a period of super dispellable consumables - players complained and cope was there, but it wasn't any worse that what we're seeing now with summons. While it might be true that melee builds rely on buffs as much as any caster, they benefit from them much more and the stat bloat is real.

sure, yes--although there's another facet to this which is the code. the code for caster levels has been reevaluated and changed over the last few years and not even just by us, but by Beamdog and other volunteers working on the back-end as well. I'm not even sure how CL is calculated anymore.

we had a period of time where you could cast a bunch of high level spells, and then destroy your CL by using a potion, and other kinds of cross-contamination scenarios. i don't know to what lengths those have been fixed or adjusted.

[MissEvelyn]

We're saying it's ridiculous that the caster who drinks that same potion will be easier to dispel than someone who had zero arcane training.

The argument isn't "Remove HD-based Dispel CL from mundanes". But rather: If mundanes get to keep a Dispel CL based on their HIt Dice, then it's more than fair that Casters, who are supposed to be better at all things arcane/divine, get the same treatment.

were you around to see the 15 cleric / 7 wm builds in the old days? I bring this up because there was a time when dispels were not usually effective, and the result was some really ridiculous builds. if casters received the same VDCL as their hit die, it would open up options like this again. it's a complex problem

I'm really happy to see you guys at least partially solved that problem with the latest caster update It's absolutely a step in the right direction, and requiring 21 levels for the +3 bonus is a good start.