Summon Adjustments

[BlankStare16]

Wizard overhaul can be as easy as adding a command that a specialist wizard can use when they have an Arcane Flux built up.

-overcast, the next time a specialist wizard casts a spell from their specialty school and has an arcane flux, instead of replenishing the spell slot, the spell is calculated for DC and SR purposes as if it were 9th level, and has a (Caster Level / 3) bonus to the DC, stacking with feats.

There is a solid 70% of the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list that functionally cannot be used because of broken saves. Even an intermittent way to boost DCs to bring those spells back into play is all wizards really need to restore the bulk of their versatility and fun.

[richardio]

As much as i want to agree but i just cannot do so.
When spell sequencer was first introduced...if anyone remember that thread post? It's as bad as this.
But it's actually pretty good, the way i see it. It's really not anything major.

This is a really weird way to frame people getting exasperated and giving up on continuing to give the same feedback that's just going to be ignored in favor of whatever appeals to the lead dev's personal vision. Especially when paired with subsequent announcements later down the line from other staff that boiled down to "Guys please respect the setting even though it might get randomly retconned out from under you". "Actually pretty good" is the silence of people giving up on wasted effort.

[dasdiddlydas]

Wizard goes up. Wizard goes down. Wizard goes up. Wizard goes down. I make a build, the build goes away. I quit my character, the build comes back. My first level isn't possible anymore. My first level wasn't possible before.

I don't know what's going on. I ain't angry. I ain't sad. I just feel tired.

[Opustus]

I understand the change. PvM has been trivialised by summons. The different spellbooks that casters get, especially some having mass haste and the others not, would make balancing between classes more difficult, especially for undead streams with multiple summons, so it's a good baseline to equalize the buffs for further balancing. I think Dirgesinger and Warlock are outliers that can be nerfed somehow. The stat disparity between different summons brought up in this thread can be balanced.

I don't see how this change addresses the roflstomp of early game PvM with summon scrolls and potions, so I would like to see something done to that.

Overall, I expect summons to still hold their own when supported by the party and continue to be a crucial part of PvM. There is a scene of competitive players who will update the priors on class balance for PvM based on playtesting so it's a good idea to listen to them for finetuning. I expect the rest of the players will continue playing the classes they like and do well with parties.

My personal peeve with the runic sequencing as opposed to spellbook buffing is the time investment in crafting or checking player shops, but that's uniquely a me-problem I think.

The pathfinding is a problem besides just causing lag. It's annoying how much they get stuck. The basic gameplay experience shouldn't involve -fetching them so often. If a brave engineer came up with a solution to keep them in tow, I would be a happy happy player.

[Biolab00]

Tbh, i would have expect at least most of the post to write about hard facts so that it makes worthwhile comparison and perhaps even provide reasonable ground for any workabout and/or even possible adjustment

More than 80% of the post here is about frustration, disappointment, anger and quite simply just, outrage.
This update is the beginning step to curb summons PVE capability and i believe that this feedback is more for us to list the hard facts and things that are beneficial to get it curb down, the right direction.
Summons are before this update, are simply overpowered and that's a fact.
But is the current 'nerf' acceptable? Plainly it is not because everyone who voice their complaints in this topic are probably or definitely players that are affected which means, all of you play summoners.
My current PC does not rely on summon but he's not a god PVP nor PVE toon as well.

Let's just start again by listing some hard facts like i did in my earlier post on what is gained and what is lost, the APRs, AB/AC.
Whether these are Permanent or Temporary.
If there are any replacement to these losses?
And what is not possible to be achieved after replacing this losses?

I believe that nothing convince better than listing hard facts rather than simply showing outrage.

The current trend, at least right now, is that Summon is definitely getting curbed.
To speak about restoring the state to the original is unrealistic.
But i'll agree with what Xerah wrote below -

Anyone entering this discussion with the idea that summons were not too strong is hard to take seriously. That said, the other outliers already do outshine the old summons, so starting the nerfing at summoners seems like a misstep.

I agree that starting to nerf summoner first, seems like a misstep but it had already happened so, it's much more constructive to voice out on hard facts where you think, the direction it. Of course, IG and Devs might not listen but at the bare minimum, there's actual facts to look at and more possible direction to choose from.

That being said

The old summon monster III, aka wolf in a bottle previously had 30 AC, 16 AB, and 2 APR baseline.

It now has 21 AC, 11 AB and 1 APR.

So this summon has lost 9 AC, 5 AB, and 1 APR.

That is extremely significant towards the overtuned low level content that will shred this 60 HP summon. Even with a sequencer, variance is so tilted against your favor in lower levels, and you really have nothing you can do about it.

The above is extremely stunning. Consider myself outdated but you get to access this potion at level 3 new PC and you've summoned a monster that is essentially a level 8 PC with 2APRs and if you slap a sequencer on it, it's effectively around the power level of level 10 PC with the increased AC and AB.

I'm pretty sure that when i summoned a creature III about 2 years back, i'm using the dire wolf with 1 APR and during then, i have to buy healing kits, fighting alongside the summon or actively look for party members to help.
Most players are very helpful that i know, especially in Skaljard.

To use Summoned creatures for PVE probably stands about 35% if not about half the population of the player base and because of that, the effective range of any slight nerf to summon hurts a huge chunk percentage of the community and players are often friends with one another and that includes myself, of course.

Let's begin listing hard facts and even testing from PGCC if there're any who are willing to do that.

[Algol]

A level 3 character these days will have around 25 ac pre expertise:

10 (base) +4 (mage armor scroll) +3 (shield scroll) + 7 (half plate armor) + 1 dexterity modifier +2 (large shield) = 27.

So I'd argue a summon having 30 ac is underpowered with current accessibility of scrolls, which can't expertise up.

[Biolab00]

A level 3 character these days will have around 25 ac pre expertise:

10 (base) +4 (mage armor scroll) +3 (shield scroll) + 7 (half plate armor) + 1 dexterity modifier +2 (large shield) = 27.

So I'd argue a summon having 30 ac is underpowered with current accessibility of scrolls, which can't expertise up.

I've stayed on this topic longer than i should and posted more than i usually do, garnered more dislike than i had over the entire year and more.
I'll probably stop posting after making this post on the current topic.

The above argument does not include 2APR which can only be gained at the earliest, level 6 PC unless you opt for dual wielding which result in much lower AB and Damage together.
Turning on expertise effectively lowers the AB of a level 3 to 5 PC which is redundant if they can't hit you and you can't hit them.

And further more, that's a 16AB with 2APRs and damage probably around 10 to 20 (could be higher, i do not know) with a 30AC.

But i'll agree that the 'current' wolf is very punishing to use and yes, the nerf is definitely overkill.
I know that because i've burnt 40-50 healing kits once and uses three summon III scrolls just to complete the Tin mine few years before as a level 4 since they get burst to death before i can heal it back to it's prime.

[richardio]

My personal peeve with the runic sequencing as opposed to spellbook buffing is the time investment in crafting or checking player shops, but that's uniquely a me-problem I think.

don't worry, it isn't a you-problem

[Kalthariam]

My personal peeve with the runic sequencing as opposed to spellbook buffing is the time investment in crafting or checking player shops, but that's uniquely a me-problem I think.

No, that's not a you problem.

It's really stupid that a level 21+ Caster cannot cast their own spells on their conjurations, but a level 3 commoner can stick together some mundane items that can do what an epic spell caster cannot. (Despite literally no other setting in existence having this, it's completely unique to arelith)

It makes zero sense. It exists simply to make summons less powerful, and I'm assuming less attractive as an option, because for some reason the Dev's have some unreasonable hatred towards conjured minions, but don't seem to be in any rush to fix the other classes that are way more disruptive to the game.

[Opustus]

I don't mind it except for the time investment because I'm too busy. I get it from a resource perspective, nice for the player-driven economy, an equalizing effect. There must be other stuff that doesn't make sense lore-wise that we just happily coexist with. It's just a chore I wish I didn't have to do because it's time away from things I'd rather do.

[Yuzam]

As much as i want to agree but i just cannot do so.
When spell sequencer was first introduced...if anyone remember that thread post? It's as bad as this.
But it's actually pretty good, the way i see it. It's really not anything major.

As for the current 'nerf'
The only nerf that you are getting is, you do not get mass haste anymore on your summon together with concealment.
That's all. What you are missing on animal buff can be replaced with druidic sequencer.
You just don't get to use quasi druidic sequencer together with arcane sequencer and throw a mass haste on top of it.

None of the summon stats are touched at all.
They're still the same BS.

Undead summon? Negative flood will raise their AB.
Squashy? You can summon them so much times....

Planar Conduit...?
Slap a druidic sequencer and it's the same, just without that haste and concealment.
If i recall...conjuration spec has Planar conduit hasted, if that is so, there is some REAL merits to getting conjuration spec now.

Let's be realistic. There're plenty of build out there, with a fighter cleric or wizard AND a Conduit....
Also...Elementalist AND a Conduit....
Okay, Wizard gain the short end of the stick...but it's still the class that majority picks.
Why? Because they have so much feat perks that you can literally have epic spell focus on 5 schools if you forsake some epic spells.

Martial don't have it as good as people claim it to be.
This nerf isn't THAT bad as you guys claim it to be.

Losing that 1APR and 4AC is a bad deal but when you include just how OP the summon originally was?
...think again.

So many effort to put in writing total nonsence. First verify if the information you are arguing with is truth... All but undead summons were nerfed, some of them significantly.

[-XXX-]

It's not so much what it is, but when and how.

Just about as everybody was getting sick and tired of Spellswords and Defilers dominating pretty much every aspect of the game this gets dropped on us - feels like putting the cart before the horse, then adding insult to injury.

Is the nerf to Summonerlocks good for the health of PvE? Absolutely! However the sweeping changes caught arcanists in the crossfire - kinda seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater

Also, if we're going this route, Aura of Vitality shouldn't work on summons either

[Algol]

Cleric domain powers work on summons bard song works on summons and so on...

I mean... I understand it but is very very unfun to have your class abilities not work on a creature you summon. It feels bad. Honestly that should be enough reason to not do such changes and have everything work on summons...

[Tabby]

the introduction of sequencers was the first nail in the coffin for wizards being good/fun/cool/enjoyable/etc.
it's funny that sequencers were introduced to prevent wizards from soloing content and yet the team is STILL trying to tweak balance to prevent them from doing so
here's the hot take: it's ridiculous to think that people shouldn't be able to solo content if they know what they're doing
nobody is roleplaying in dungeons
nobody is roleplaying their writs
roleplay starts at 30 and ends when you get bored of your character, get bullied into rerolling by one of the countless goonsquads on the server, or get banned for something ridiculous like having to take your dog to the vet
arelith is a really cool server that has really cool stuff going for it but the mentality right now (i say right now but i mean since i started playing years ago) seems to be geared less towards making mechanical content fun and encouraging to go through and more towards forcing people to engage with mechanical content regardless of if it feels rewarding or not
to wit:

No, just no, its an RP server, if you start RPing at 30 only, thats you missing out on your character story arc, your character evolving to become a level 30 character.
Some do RP in dungeons and also writs.

Side note, to everyone else, Im amazed at all this ranting. Its quite amazing to read all this.
I dont have a take on all this summoning, as i dont play one, really, so opting out on the topic. But i think people needs to relax abit.

[Kythana]

Let's begin listing hard facts and even testing from PGCC if there're any who are willing to do that.

I like how you say to list hard facts, and you even quote me stating hard facts and then just choose to ignore it. So, okay, let's start with some more hard facts.

Here is a 6th level summon. The earliest level you get this is level 13.

Here it is with an arcane sequencer applied.

So let's be generous. Let's say the mobs you are fighting have 18 AB. That is 1 higher than the previous tier summon with has 17.

In order for a mob to hit that AC, it has to hit 31 AC. With 18 AB, that means it needs to roll a 13 or higher. Which is a 40% chance. Aaaand it needs to beat concealment, so 50%. We'll be even more generous and say it doesn't have blind fight.

So this is a 20% chance that this particular summon is hit. But, well, mob packs usually aren't alone, so let's add in a few more. I'd say 4 in total is a generally reasonable number.

The probability of this summon getting hit when facing 4 mobs is around 60%, per round. At least while all four mobs are alive. This is also not counting any extra attacks, dispels, or breaches.

Pitting it against 3-4 CR11-12 mobs on the PGCC has it dying more often than not without support. And with only 100 HP, it has a good chance of just getting bursted down pretty hard, which can happen when it's getting flanked and flat footed.

But this is all being extremely generous. Go to Skal where the content is actually overtuned, and try it out for yourself.

[Biolab00]

Let's begin listing hard facts and even testing from PGCC if there're any who are willing to do that.

I like how you say to list hard facts, and you even quote me stating hard facts and then just choose to ignore it. So, okay, let's start with some more hard facts.

Here is a 6th level summon. The earliest level you get this is level 13.

Here it is with an arcane sequencer applied.

So let's be generous. Let's say the mobs you are fighting have 18 AB. That is 1 higher than the previous tier summon with has 17.

In order for a mob to hit that AC, it has to hit 31 AC. With 18 AB, that means it needs to roll a 13 or higher. Which is a 40% chance. Aaaand it needs to beat concealment, so 50%. We'll be even more generous and say it doesn't have blind fight.

So this is a 20% chance that this particular summon is hit. But, well, mob packs usually aren't alone, so let's add in a few more. I'd say 4 in total is a generally reasonable number.

The probability of this summon getting hit when facing 4 mobs is around 60%, per round. At least while all four mobs are alive. This is also not counting any extra attacks, dispels, or breaches.

Pitting it against 3-4 CR11-12 mobs on the PGCC has it dying more often than not without support. And with only 100 HP, it has a good chance of just getting bursted down pretty hard, which can happen when it's getting flanked and flat footed.

But this is all being extremely generous. Go to Skal where the content is actually overtuned, and try it out for yourself.

Must i be the only player that needs to be arguing against false information given?

The earliest that you can get this summon is not Level 13 but a Level 9 Wizard if you had Greater spell focus : Conjuration and Level 11 Wizard if you do not.
At level 13, you will already be summoning Elementals and if you've Greater spell focus : Conjuration or Cleric Domain? It'll be Elder Elemental.

If we're considering that a Level 9 Wizard is able to obtain this Tiger which objectively speaking, they do because no Summoning class do not take Greater spell focus Conjuration at the earliest moment that they can.

Level 9 Wizard with this Tiger, even in Skaljard can reliably do writs IF they solo, with difficulty yes.
Need healing kit? Yes, that's for sure.
But to be killed without any support from the summoner for level 9 PC content? Nope, that's false.

I do agree that the nerf from the improved animal summoning and elementals to the current 'new' status is very harsh and agree that it could have been much more mild but please, write some actual facts and not try to cause confusion.

On a side note, there's a year old topic once posted about Summons are overpowered. I've paste the link here and it's worth to look at viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39870

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Oh wow, It's me.

Heh, I am going to repeat myself from things I said all the way back to the time of Jjjerm.

Arelith always had a balance issue. Long ago I suggested that casters be put behind a sacrifice system.
Mind you, we had no "mod-classes" back then. I reasoned that casters were and always should be more powerful than mundane classes and should be treated as such. (obv. this was ignored)

I did always favor the old Arelith compared to the Modded version we have now. But I came to understand that Arelith needed to evolve or it would die out.

Now I feel Arelith has been further from balanced than ever before. Well, I felt it for a few years, Which is one of the many reasons I seldom am online.

As for the balance,

Bioware never intended balance and gave us full freedom to combine classes and gear and create servers past their expectations. this led to Neverwinter still being an active game after so many years.

Arelith expanded those classes, Giving more combinations.

The player base, Non of us are the same, While one crunches numbers, Another is just amazingly creative with build, gear or knowing the server.

The Dev has been expanding Arelith with endless "This could be fun" content, Which I have often partaken in and am thankful for.
But some things I enjoyed and other things I didn't care for has upset the balance more.

Sample: Sailing. Which saw a giant influx of pirate millionaires and quick levelling. (I loved it though)

So, We have Arelith, The biblical hell of people outcrying "why is my character bad" and "X PVP'd me, help" etc, etc, etc. While a few remain on their thrones of having a comfortable build that makes them ease through the PvE and PvP events.

What surprises me about this is that Irongorn, Assuming he still seeks a form of balance, Keeps poking on the summons, Which have become the literal crutch for some to get through the early levels or to solo a long resource walk.

Yes, Some would make a joke out of certain dungeons, But can't go without them either.

[silverpheonix]

It's a really cruel nerf for that only harms classes that already underperformed.

This is an important point. Nerfing a universal tool because the meta is too strong impacts the meta to some extent...but it hurts far more the non-meta "B-tier" builds far more and discourages build for RP in favor of build for meta, because your B-tier crutch is no longer able to let you limp along with an unoptimized build.

The solution on the player-end then is to redo your build towards the meta so you can remain viable. Some changes get made, balance adjustments focused on the meta or new meta, and invariably it seems that we circle around back to the previous paragraph. And repeat.

[Kythana]

Must i be the only player that needs to be arguing against false information given?

The earliest that you can get this summon is not Level 13 but a Level 9 Wizard if you had Greater spell focus : Conjuration and Level 11 Wizard if you do not.
At level 13, you will already be summoning Elementals and if you've Greater spell focus : Conjuration or Cleric Domain? It'll be Elder Elemental.

If we're considering that a Level 9 Wizard is able to obtain this Tiger which objectively speaking, they do because no Summoning class do not take Greater spell focus Conjuration at the earliest moment that they can.

Level 9 Wizard with this Tiger, even in Skaljard can reliably do writs IF they solo, with difficulty yes.
Need healing kit? Yes, that's for sure.
But to be killed without any support from the summoner for level 9 PC content? Nope, that's false.

I do agree that the nerf from the improved animal summoning and elementals to the current 'new' status is very harsh and agree that it could have been much more mild but please, write some actual facts and not try to cause confusion.

On a side note, there's a year old topic once posted about Summons are overpowered. I've paste the link here and it's worth to look at viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39870

Right, so here's the actual level 13 summon instead.

It's really not that much better than the tiger.

Yes, having the spell focuses will make them a bit better and grant the higher tier quicker, but many builds that relied on summons either didn't or couldn't fit it.

Especially given summons already weak spot in pvp, so taking three spell focus feats for something that gets removed with a single WoF was meaningless.

Which again, I have to ask. What is the point of this update? It only hurts Arelith's accessibility, especially to newer more casual players.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Must i be the only player that needs to be arguing against false information given?

Yes.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Rather than be angry that summons were nerfed, we should suggest ways that traditional casters can be buffed to have more sustainability. I wouldn't care about the power of summons if my magic was sustainable. Infinicast cantrips is a step in the right direction, but the damage on them is too low to be a meaningful sustainable offense option. Also, it would be nice if we had spells that, in PVE, would do saveless crowd control for a few seconds to allow casters to gain distance from themself and mobs.

Clerics getting a wider spellbook would be really nice as well. We have very few offensive spells, and most of them are necromancy. The only spells that were added recently only benefit necromancers.

I've said it before, but the only time I've ever seen the vancian system work is in Chrono Cross where all of your spell slots recharge at the end of each battle. Something like that would help a lot. Just put a cooldown on spells like timestop if there's concern that people would spam it every time they left and re-entered combat.

[Drogo Gyslain]

I've said it before, but the only time I've ever seen the vancian system work is in Chrono Cross where all of your spell slots recharge at the end of each battle. Something like that would help a lot. Just put a cooldown on spells like timestop if there's concern that people would spam it every time they left and re-entered combat.

So... there's a part two to this that is pretty important, and I think would augment the usage of a Chrono Cross Element style beautifully.

Because in CC, you didn't just have to plan out everything on the front-side of the battle based on your element grid being completely refreshed, you also had to take into account other actions being played to 'charge' the elements. there was a beginning of encounter casting time built into it.

Harder, stronger and more difficult spells can be cast at the same speed as cantrips, I've just always found that odd personally and this would add some variability to that and focus on stronger, more powerful caster abilites to put the onus back on the player, not the summon.

Maybe This is something that could be taken into account, and shifting the focus back onto the PC and not the Summons doing the heavy lifting. Summons being given a guard/defend role more than heavy attack, and give casters a longer cast time spell, like a 25d4 spell with a 2 server tick cast time.

It would eliminate the leave-return issue with combat refreshing the spellbook, and give a realistic representation to "cast time" by having to stay focused on your spells longer for more powerful effects.

[Gibbaddy]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

[-XXX-]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

...aaand 4th encounter into the dungeon the caster is out of spells - what now?

[Amateur Hour]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

...aaand 4th encounter into the dungeon the caster is out of spells - what now?

And let's also keep in mind that those summons that are used by wizards - who have arcane flux, spellbound wands, and some pretty sweet cantrips as far as cantrips go - are also used by caster clerics, shamans, and druids, who have none of those.