Arcane caster balance feedback- wizard cope 2 electric boogaloo

[Quizmar]

So fellow wizard copers, when do we start the hunger strike?

[Hazard]

So fellow wizard copers, when do we start the hunger strike?

Are we going to boycott casting sustenance on ourselves?

[Mamma ama Warlock]

So fellow wizard copers, when do we start the hunger strike?

Are we going to boycott casting sustenance on ourselves?

Should stop making wands and scrolls for mundies for about a month, then see what happens

[CookieMonster]

I don't want to kick the hornet nest, but this probably will.. Wizards are a Support class. There, I said it. Whilst we wait for the angry responses...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, Wizards aren't celestial creatures. In DnD they are a support role, that assist the rest of the party to overcome challenges in a unique way.

I've really always disliked this common thought process that if you cannot compete with a Min/Max 25/5 Fighter WM in Dungeon runs then you aren't balanced. When the reality is, you aren't built for that. You do not have the facilities for that type of damage output or defence WHICH IS FINE. WHICH IS INTENDED. Because you are a Support.

Wizards have a rediculous amount of feats, which allows them to become a walking bag of SOS goodies. Need a Portal? I got you.. Need another person here? I got you.. Wands? Scrolls? Potions? Name it, I learned them ALL.. Mass Production of Crafted Stuff? I got you.. Need a trap disabled or lock opened? My pocket Rogue has got you..

They have a built in FIX IT for almost every encounter and unlike most, they can actually do them all well instead of one or a few. For the role they play, they are perfectly balanced. Speaking honestly, the players who make Wizards are at fault for not managing their expectations, you simply can't just have all of it.

[-XXX-]

I don't want to kick the hornet nest, but this probably will.. Wizards are a Support class.

Support classes just don't exist in an environment where every class and build gets meticulously dissected, carefully measured and judged by its ability to

• perform efficiently during PvE
• win at PvP

Everything that then falls short of the percieved standard simply doesn't get played.

Furthermore, it's not like the listed fixit cookies would be gated behind the wizard class either - virtually any build can access most of them just by throwing some coin around = point being, optimal builds don't even need support ...and often don't want to share loot.

[Iceborn]

They have a built in FIX IT for almost every encounter and unlike most, they can actually do them all well instead of one or a few. For the role they play, they are perfectly balanced. Speaking honestly, the players who make Wizards are at fault for not managing their expectations, you simply can't just have all of it.

I'd argue a lot of people that play casters don't really want to just be an optional accessory to a meleer (and I say optional because short of commodity, there's nothing your random fighter can't do short of getting ESF goodies, which are now conveniently at reach by investing 5 levels into an utility class).

Nobody will argue that wizards - specially wizards due to those delicious bonus feats - have the easiest access to magic tools, but I don't think that people want to be measured entirely by the convenience when they simultaneously suck at PvE and are limited to using the exact 3 same spells in PvP to mild levels of success, when you can easily look at other classes that can do both with far greater efficiency, and they are fun to play to booth - spellswords and warlocks being some of the main culprits right now.

Everything that then falls short of the percieved standard simply doesn't get played.

Exhibit A: Sorcerer.
The current, practically vanilla implementation of sorcerers is nothing short of egregious, and after playing religiously for the last 3-4~ months I can tell you that the amount of confirmed sorcerers that I've met in UD are... exactly 1. And she's a surface character.

You can probably get away doing the same as a wizard with less feats, less skillpoints. You can apparently still do that abomination of the sorcadin build and get +13~ to all saves. Sorcaguard too, and sorcarator is a thing now apparently. But it's still a crippled wizard. Yay for spontaneous casting.

[chris a gogo]

I don't want to kick the hornet nest, but this probably will.. Wizards are a Support class. There, I said it. Whilst we wait for the angry responses...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, Wizards aren't celestial creatures. In DnD they are a support role, that assist the rest of the party to overcome challenges in a unique way.

I've really always disliked this common thought process that if you cannot compete with a Min/Max 25/5 Fighter WM in Dungeon runs then you aren't balanced. When the reality is, you aren't built for that. You do not have the facilities for that type of damage output or defence WHICH IS FINE. WHICH IS INTENDED. Because you are a Support.

Wizards have a rediculous amount of feats, which allows them to become a walking bag of SOS goodies. Need a Portal? I got you.. Need another person here? I got you.. Wands? Scrolls? Potions? Name it, I learned them ALL.. Mass Production of Crafted Stuff? I got you.. Need a trap disabled or lock opened? My pocket Rogue has got you..

They have a built in FIX IT for almost every encounter and unlike most, they can actually do them all well instead of one or a few. For the role they play, they are perfectly balanced. Speaking honestly, the players who make Wizards are at fault for not managing their expectations, you simply can't just have all of it.

Absolutely correct.
Unfortunately then we come to the total availability of all magic with the investment of skill points and the fact you can buy everything you would need a wizard for from an npc.
If all potions were removed other than healing and restoration, and the ability to use scrolls was purely for those with the use scroll feat, then you would be exactly right in that a wizard would be the ultimate support character and would be sort out by all other classes.
But we have a server that allows mundane characters to be as effective as a wizard at magic at the cost of skill points but far more effective at combat with much greater sustain, this would be why players are saying it's unbalanced, I for one would not care if wizards were left vanilla so long as every other class loses the access to magic that they currently have, would mean that balance is restored because while the wizard would suck at soloing epic content it would be doable but hard, and the same issues would be there for the non wizards they would also suck at soloing.
Oh and remove spell sword too as it's an abomination no wizard should be a better fighter than a fighter.
Peace out.

[Second Breakfast]

"Wizards are a support class". Yeah, sure. They are here, certainly. On a lot of servers, however, a few notable persistent worlds included, they are the S-tier PvP class, because if you have time to properly prepare your spell-book for it ahead of time, you can waste opponents with ease.

I should mention that even as a support class, the Wizard in its present form on Arelith isn't even that great at fulfilling the role. If you're a transmuter, no one wants your empowered zoos when they're already bumping up against the soft cap for ability scores due to gear. If you're an illusionist or an enchanter? Well, guess who is better at crowd control than you are (hint: it's every other caster class). Beyond that, an obsession with the CL of spells has made it so most martials don't WANT your buffs as a rule. You could be CL 29 instead of 30, and for that reason, you are avoided like the plague in favor of potions and wands.

The aforementioned toys mentioned by CookieMonster are nice and give wizard a lot of utility, but guess what? Any meathead can take 4 or 5 levels of Loremaster and get the many of the same toys you have AND the ability to use the majority of your repertoire via scrolls.

So, any wizard is left to wonder what their purpose is, much like the butter-passing robot in Rick and Morty.

"What is my purpose?"
"You cast Mass Haste."
"Oh my god..."

---

Anyway, most of us know what the problems with Wizard are, and what I've written is nothing new. So, how to fix it? Here are my own personal suggestions:

• Give some of the save-or-suck/save-or-die spells an additional effect dependent upon Spell Foci that is applied upon succeeding the save, if you're a wizard. Psychic damage upon a Hold Monster spell that they succeed on their Will Save with. Various warlock pacts already have something like this with some of their pact spells. Surely something similar could be done with the infinicasting spells granted by GSF and it could be further expanded? Same with the signature schools for specialist wizards.
• Just give wizards Arcane Defense: Abjuration at epics. It is a two-feat tax that most wizards have to pay, since most wizards don't go pure. Alternatively, give wizards additional CL versus dispels. They're disciplined and learned spellcasters; to me, it makes sense. Also, abjuration is boring and this is just a scheme by Big Abjurer to try and make their school relevant.
• Just give Wizards more flavor. Warlocks have flavor a-plenty since the rework from Bardlock; each of the pacts has personality behind it. As a result, this just makes Wizards feel like a Kirkland-brand spellcaster. Not 'classic' and one of the core classes of D&D, but generic, bland, and third-rate when compared to the other options available.
• More spells that aren't for weirdo blood-mages. Yes, they are open for wizards to use if they want to, and some wizards do use them (Predator, especially), but the kindly old bearded mage isn't going to break open his spellbook and use.. checks notes .. Massacre.

[Kythana]

We think that wizard is a support because that is the only useful thing it does currently. And enchanter wizard with its cracked good hope is a very nice support, I'll agree.

But not give options for the evokers out there? The transmuters wanting to use Tensers? The necromancer who aren't just undead summon bots. So on and so forth.

And furthermore, I know this thread is about wizard and arcane casters, and that's where the focus often goes to, but...

Caster druids, favored souls, and shamans are even worse compared to wizards, and often don't even support that playstyle at all.

All the old vancian casters need infinicasting options. It's the direction the server has taken as a whole.

[Naghast]

I don't want to kick the hornet nest, but this probably will.. Wizards are a Support class. There, I said it. Whilst we wait for the angry responses...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, Wizards aren't celestial creatures. In DnD they are a support role, that assist the rest of the party to overcome challenges in a unique way.

I've really always disliked this common thought process that if you cannot compete with a Min/Max 25/5 Fighter WM in Dungeon runs then you aren't balanced. When the reality is, you aren't built for that. You do not have the facilities for that type of damage output or defence WHICH IS FINE. WHICH IS INTENDED. Because you are a Support.

Wizards have a rediculous amount of feats, which allows them to become a walking bag of SOS goodies. Need a Portal? I got you.. Need another person here? I got you.. Wands? Scrolls? Potions? Name it, I learned them ALL.. Mass Production of Crafted Stuff? I got you.. Need a trap disabled or lock opened? My pocket Rogue has got you..

They have a built in FIX IT for almost every encounter and unlike most, they can actually do them all well instead of one or a few. For the role they play, they are perfectly balanced. Speaking honestly, the players who make Wizards are at fault for not managing their expectations, you simply can't just have all of it.

They're subpar supports.

For the record:
Need a portal? Sorry i got a lens / am a loremaster with secret of portals

Need another person here? Loremaster says hi. Or warlock. Warlocks can get yoink too.

Producing stuff is a fair point

Need that trap disabled?
I'm fine i invested one (1) point into disarm trap and got a few trinkets to swap to so now i can disarm that dc 40 trap just fine, etc.

[Hazard]

I don't want to kick the hornet nest, but this probably will.. Wizards are a Support class. There, I said it. Whilst we wait for the angry responses...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, Wizards aren't celestial creatures. In DnD they are a support role, that assist the rest of the party to overcome challenges in a unique way.

I've really always disliked this common thought process that if you cannot compete with a Min/Max 25/5 Fighter WM in Dungeon runs then you aren't balanced. When the reality is, you aren't built for that. You do not have the facilities for that type of damage output or defence WHICH IS FINE. WHICH IS INTENDED. Because you are a Support.

Wizards have a rediculous amount of feats, which allows them to become a walking bag of SOS goodies. Need a Portal? I got you.. Need another person here? I got you.. Wands? Scrolls? Potions? Name it, I learned them ALL.. Mass Production of Crafted Stuff? I got you.. Need a trap disabled or lock opened? My pocket Rogue has got you..

They have a built in FIX IT for almost every encounter and unlike most, they can actually do them all well instead of one or a few. For the role they play, they are perfectly balanced. Speaking honestly, the players who make Wizards are at fault for not managing their expectations, you simply can't just have all of it.

They're subpar supports.

For the record:
Need a portal? Sorry i got a lens / am a loremaster with secret of portals

Need another person here? Loremaster says hi. Or warlock. Warlocks can get yoink too.

Producing stuff is a fair point

Need that trap disabled?
I'm fine i invested one (1) point into disarm trap and got a few trinkets to swap to so now i can disarm that dc 40 trap just fine, etc.

+1

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't want to kick the hornet nest, but this probably will.. Wizards are a Support class. There, I said it. Whilst we wait for the angry responses...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, Wizards aren't celestial creatures. In DnD they are a support role, that assist the rest of the party to overcome challenges in a unique way.

Weird. Someone needs to tell wizards of the coast this, they had not only a wizard as the main baddie holding their own against the entire party of 4 protagonists, but a super -powered Lich wizard as the backdrop baddie in their movie. Clearly, they got it wrong and didn't understand the rule "wizards are a support class!".

Edit add on: While we are at it, we need to write protest letters about Elminster. Or at the very least inform him that he's only there to buff the fishermen along the Ashaba River and his windmill looks funny. I mean, you would think the people who come up with this stuff would know how to come up with this stuff, right?

[Naghast]

For the record:

I'm not really against the notion of "Wizards are supports", hell, i'm cool with that.

The problem, in my eyes, is that they... Really aren't even that, mostly.

Up until now the best tactic was to get a summon and, yes, support it with your stuff as a wizard. That is, buffs, cantrips, etc.
Until ability to buff summons with the one spell wizard had much easier access to (mass zoos) was taken away that is.
But when trying to support other players, you don't really have much that they'd want from you. Zoo buffs? Nah, that they want from their own pots or stuff so they can have cl 30 vs dispels. Even with the adjustments made, they still need to sip a potion -first- for you to extend the duration of that with your own zoo.
I could go over everything individually but to make it less of a wall of text, lemme sum up:

On party: mass haste (Accessible by other classes, sometimes they even fill the job better than you), mind blank (Trinket duration is good enough here), good hope (that's the one thing wizard can give that is irreplaceable.)

On enemies: Dispels (arguably, potent.), "CC's" (saves say hi), peel with minor but saveable damage (Which runs out rather quickly too).

I'm not sure if it was in this thread or other but i really, really liked Eters's idea of making spellbound wands true infinicasts and giving epic spell focuses bonus infinicasts. Making specialist wiz infinicasts have zero cooldown is also cool, although i'm not sure if it wouldn't warrant an adjustment to signature spells.
I'd also really like to see the ESF infinicasts be extended to divine casters too, so they're not left in the dirt here. Even though they do have spell refund. Mostly.

[Quizmar]

Wizards being a support class as an argument doesn't really hold up considering that SS gets 95-99% of the utility features that wizard has, not to mention can actually fight
So is SS a support, and tank, and damage class?

[-XXX-]

Wizards being a support class as an argument doesn't really hold up considering that SS gets 95-99% of the utility features that wizard has, not to mention can actually fight
So is SS a support, and tank, and damage class?

All good builds are. Saying that something is supposed to be relegated to a support role on Arelith is basically saying "is bad and should stay bad"

[MarkRed]

Ways to nerf spellsword
make it more like warpriest
-remove all access, except with rods, to 9th level spells, including the snowflake timestop
-remove summons entirely
-increase spell components needed for higher level casting
-remove familiar (or atleast no more pixie for them)
-hard cap on spells in spellbook
-remove arcane flux

I am leaving out warlock because I know very little about them, and understand certain things have recently been nerf'd
I understand that some of my suggestions are probably bad ideas, or would be broken if implemented without certain considerations of which I am unaware

Edit: improved facts

As a Wizard pilled individual myself... I whole heartedly agree to almost every nerf in here for SS.

Warpriest falls short to Spellsword in so many ways, even though they compete for the exact same role. A gish front liner, one divine and one arcane.

Warpriest

• Lowered CL on offensive spells
• No summons (Or familiar)
• No Arcane Flux (Obviously, but some Domains can help alleviate this difference, and depending on Path your spell refunds, which for Warpriest specifically, is just Div Power/Favor, everything else you'll likely not need multiple casts/rest.)
• No innate item crafting feat (Can be resolved with a Domain, but unlikely on a Warpriest.)
• Divine Strike (Which just falls flat of Imbue Weapon/Elestrike/Maelstrom in just about every way, even if you factor in GMW, Clang, Bless Weapon and many more, even if you consider the Divine Damage. Imbue is more flexable and has additional debuffs on hit for just existing. One of which is lifesteal!)
• No Imbue Armour/shield (Literally nothing even remotely close to this, you could argue Flame/Frost Shield/Resist Elements/Spell Resist but... Spellsword gets those too!
• No bonus feats (Combat Casting is not a bonus feat worth anything, and Spellsword gets it too, so go away.)
• Only one bonus attack (Spellsword gets access to an additional just because, and then one while true strike from you spell list is up, and then ofc Haste, Cleric falls behind on one attack.
• Not int based (As if it were bad enough, a Spellsword gets a half-dozen languages overtop of a Cleric, and a butt-load more skills, since they're both 4+Int. So not only is Spellsword better IC, but also OOC!)
• Breached and Dispelled they're effectively useless! (So much of Warpriest relys on buff spells, while Spellsword gets basically everything Warpriests do, but innately just for existing! It cannot despelled!)
• No Extra Dispel CL! (They do get a flat +1 CL at 16th, but it's still nothing in comp to a flat +3 vs Dispel that Spellsword gets.)
• No Breaches on Spell list.

Spellsword

• Slightly gimped spell list (No 9th casting, outside of a few spells that were lowered in level, and has odd spells that Wizards don't, like Faerie Fire.)
• Spell Components (Apparently the true reason Spellsword is allowed to get everything it does, even though 95% of it's spell casting will be done below 6th level, or as buff spells.

Wizard

• Is a Wizard

I'm sure I could continue finding more and more things that Spellsword has over a Warpriest, and vice versa, but 9/10 all of those strengths the Cleric have are absolutely invalidated by the Warpriest path. But it's absolutely painful when you look at CLERIC and WIZARD two of the most broken classes in all of DnD... and they look like babies while standing next to Spellsword.

Both are still nice classes that absolutely have their strengths when built, geared and used correctly, but another strength of Spellsword, they have a much lower skill floor. Meaning that any ole Joe can come in an be better on average than a Cleric or Wizard.

[MarkRed]

Just give wizards Arcane Defense: Abjuration at epics. It is a two-feat tax that most wizards have to pay, since most wizards don't go pure. Alternatively, give wizards additional CL versus dispels. They're disciplined and learned spellcasters; to me, it makes sense. Also, abjuration is boring and this is just a scheme by Big Abjurer to try and make their school relevant.

Cries in Abjurer Spec and Focus Wizard. It's true we're terrible beyond those extra breach #. But this buff specifically is verbatim what Abj Spec already has, while I'd absolutely love to see either these benefits stack or be replaced with something cooler... what?

• Bonus 1.5x DR (Blocked or DR directly) added onto Stoneskin and Greater Stoneskin just like Elemental Resist
• New Abj only spells
• Counterspelling bonuses (And probably just throw in a better counterspelling in general, it's abysmal to do especially in combat.)

[Security_Blanket]

Wizard is not a support class, this isn't just Arelith, this is Dungeons and Dragons. Elminster, Vecna, Szass Tam, Khelben Blackstaff, are these support characters, are they mostly useless when not accompanied by a tank? No, they're among the most powerful humans/former humans to walk Faerun, how many D&D famous Fighters of similar caliber can go toe to toe with one of those legends? I may be comparing extremes here but the point remains, in D&D wizards are not a support class and shouldn't be treated as such. You can certainly build it as a support class, and it has the ability to switch over to a support role change changing its spells around, but so can a Druid, or a Cleric.

Everyone is in such a rush these days, all you guys think is Haste Haste Haste, yes Mass Haste is handy, but I would take a Cleric that knows what they're doing as a support character than a Wizard any day. A Cleric can provide +5 Armor, Shield, and Deflection AC, 8-9 Regen, Freedom of Movement, Negative Energy Resist, Improved Invisibility, and enough Spell Resistance to become immune to NPC casters. A Cleric can turn anyone into a tank, including itself and they do it without using a single spell component, but a Wizard is a support class? Wizards are the powerhouses of D&D, when I think of a Wizards strength I'm reminded of the lifespan of a Red Dragon. When it's a Wyrmling, it's not much of a threat, but as time goes by, it grows, gains experience, eventually becoming a Great Wyrm. I see a Wizards progression in a similar light, though in contrast, the Wizards on Arelith are ranging from Wyrmlings to Adults, nowhere near the status of "Great Wyrm" and for the sake of balance, they shouldn't be.

[Diegovog]

Stuff

Your suggestions are neat, but is it even possible to have partial result of spells in the nwn engine?

[perseid]

I don't want to kick the hornet nest, but this probably will.. Wizards are a Support class. There, I said it. Whilst we wait for the angry responses...

This isn't Lord of the Rings, Wizards aren't celestial creatures. In DnD they are a support role, that assist the rest of the party to overcome challenges in a unique way.

I don't see how anyone familiar with 3e or DnD in general from the time NWN came out could remotely come away with this perspective. From a PnP perspective it's just a ludicrous proposal, between Conjuration and Transmutation alone a wizard had a million options for providing solid offense that was effective with or without supplemental party members. And from a game perspective core NWN gave the Wizard no shortage of high damage tools and multiclass dips to subvert their more glaring weakspots both in pvp and pve. The current state of Wizard on the server is due to the sheer number of mechanical Arelithisms rather than some kind of hypothetical support archetype that wizard was intended to be. In PnP Wizard, Cleric, and Druid were all generally considered the hardest to manage classes outside groups of new players at the time specifically because of how easily they could manage problems compared to more limited classes. That's not to say that that should be the balance point but the idea that "In DnD this isn't what wizard is" just screams to not actually having significantly played DnD at the time the relevant edition NWN was designed around existed.

[perseid]

This was something I was thinking about during a talk in discord that seemed like it'd be best posted here. But imo the balance of the feat economy for summoners is weird. Right now, and for awhile, the general trend has been that to have useful renewable (So not EDK, PC, or the Meteor) summons you need either GSF: Conj or Mummy Dust depending on your minions of choice. Securing the tier boost is generally much more consequential in terms of minion performance than the foci bonuses of the relevant schools. This isn't necessarily the worst thing, since it allows partial investment without needing to commit to an ESF feat for example, but I still feel like it should be looked at as a place where some gentler adjustments could be made like giving Conj/Necro secondary sources for securing a tier boost (like taking some particular epic Epic Spell in the case of Conj or GSF/ESF: Necro in the case of necromancy).

[Android Sufferer]

Stuff

Your suggestions are neat, but is it even possible to have partial result of spells in the nwn engine?

As in can you change what a spell does based on the difference between a save roll and a spell DC? Then yes, absolutely.

If it's something else you'll have to clarify what you mean!

[Iceborn]

Pathfinder 2E has a very neat system for Effects based on "degrees of success" over DCs.
Say you casting, idk, Blindness. At DC 20.
If you, defender, score a +30 on the save, you get a critical success. No effect.
20-29, you get a standard success - you are affected by 1 round.
10-19, you get a failure - you are affected by standard effect duration (in PF2, 1 minute)
less than 10: you get affected by permanent blindness.

This is a thing that I really like of PF2, and I wouldn't mind to see implemented across the board.
At the very least, we should implement the 'minor effect for 1 round' on success, to make spells do something other than whiff when there are already plenty of immunities that can do that already, and offer some counterplay and enter the cycle of ward/breach/reward.

[Jencent]

Pathfinder 2E has a very neat system for Effects based on "degrees of success" over DCs.
Say you casting, idk, Blindness. At DC 20.
If you, defender, score a +30 on the save, you get a critical success. No effect.
20-29, you get a standard success - you are affected by 1 round.
10-19, you get a failure - you are affected by standard effect duration (in PF2, 1 minute)
less than 10: you get affected by permanent blindness.

This is a thing that I really like of PF2, and I wouldn't mind to see implemented across the board.
At the very least, we should implement the 'minor effect for 1 round' on success, to make spells do something other than whiff when there are already plenty of immunities that can do that already, and offer some counterplay and enter the cycle of ward/breach/reward.

Welp. PF2 have a lot of problems (like a lot of boring feats and useless classes.)
Also at some case that system become abusive (you cant fail heal check with medkit) and you heal your party like a god.

[Iceborn]

Welp. PF2 have a lot of problems (like a lot of boring feats and useless classes.)
Also at some case that system become abusive (you cant fail heal check with medkit) and you heal your party like a god.

PF2 - and all rpg systems for that matter - often have their own glaring issues here and there; that's what happens with any complex machine, eventually you will find the areas where it excels, and where it fails.

I don't like PF2 for the most part, it doesn't have the things I usually enjoy in a tabletop experience, but I will always encourage us to take a look at our neighboring systems and see how they work, and what we may learn from them to shape the future of our game. NWN is still fundamentally too different from any tabletop experience to copy anything verbatim.