Sibayad should be an explicitly evil settlement

[Quizmar]

Instead of creating somewhere new, or massively altering the politics of an existing settlement, I think Sibayad would be a great location for evil-doers of the surface to congregate, and scheme. Sibayad is such a cool place, it already has everything for a settlement, all it would need is a formalized Gov't, and the law pillars adjusted to reflect the new values. Unfortunately, right now Sibayad is little more than a place to do higher level writs, and hosts vacation homes for Cordorian nobles.

I think the only other thing it needs is a way to travel there from the UD, and I could be wrong and one already exists, but the only way I'm aware of to travel there is Captain whats-his-face in Crow's nest.

I know that a lot of this could/has to be done IC, but even if I started a Sibayad mafia, or something, but without admins involved very little would change in terms of the town structure.

I think there's quite a few cool ways this could go, maybe an evil cult takes control over the city, a mafia is formed, underdarkers who have been banished from Andunor seeking refuge, a lot of things.

Help me make Sibayad the wretched hive of scum and villainy we all know it can be

There's another similar thread on here, but that one got bogged down with history lessons and so I'm posting a more specific feedback here.

[DM Monkey]

It is. Just don't disrupt the trade!

[Kythana]

I think the only other thing it needs is a way to travel there from the UD, and I could be wrong and one already exists

There is an UD quarter that connects to an area near Sibayad, maybe like 3 transitions away, but since it's a quarter, not publicly available sometimes.

People generally do use Sibayad as an evil HQ though, often the fort or the other guildhall outside the city.

But because it's a relatively mid level range for leveling, and reeeeeally close to portals, you're going to get relentlessly bullied en masse once you become notable enough. Factor in good aligned characters living there, and no actual settlement rules, and yeah- It's pretty hard.

I wouldn't mind a bit more Sibayad development though, in the form of some more areas, and NPC presence. The Merchant's League or whatever is essentially meaningless, with how little they're represented.

Just no blatant Underdark ties, please. Having all evil tied to that is limiting.

Sibayad is one of my favorite areas on the server admittedly, so I'm a bit biased. It's really charming overall, especially given how old it is.

[Draco]

I love the thought of another evil settlement, I like Sibayad but it feels lackluster, it could use a facelift. The issue I expect with openly evil places is when things are allowed to go unchecked, then when you have some players that take it way over the top and get the attention of every good-hearted nation on the surface. Like having slaves and public executions isn't good enough, we also should be holding hands with drow in the streets, openly dealing with fiends, and every residence comes with an undead butler.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

Lawful-evil, no monster races allowed openly (implies: can get in under very good cover for a very short visit, always a risk to get KoSed), no demons and undead openly under the threat of exile for scaring away the merchants, reinforced through very severe punishment (read: death) for those who break the strict laws of the place and/or charge in trying to bash the residents because ThEy ArE a NeCrOmAnCer AnD hAvE tO bE kIlLeD fOr AlL tHaT iS gOoD aNd HoLy (I'm sorry I don't like paladins)

Pretty much the outpost, just on surface and with very easy access for any levels. It already is an option, simply requires measures to be set in place to a) not get run over by goodly folk; b) turn into an uncontrollable mess.

It is also my favorite place on the server, so I'd love to see it flourish.

[Edens_Fall]

Many groups have tried over the years to set up an Evil organization in Sibayad. Sometimes with the Merchant League, Sometimes without. The issue all faced was the one already mentioned here. Unless your own force is large enough and skilled enough to counter raids from the various "Good" surface factions, you'll just end up burned out on PvP.

Perhaps if you held the fort outside town it might work?

Regardless, a successful Evil group in Sibayad would need to be lowkey, and if you're going that route it would be better to live in an RP hub like Cordor or Guldorand.

[Anomandaris]

Sibayad works just fine as it is for enabling surface evil RP. It doesn’t need to be like the hub or Dis to do this job, in fact it’s the opposite. Surface evil needs to be low key to work anyways.

One of the reasons it works so well and I enjoy it is it’s quiet, and not packed with PCs competing to control the area politically like other settlements. Increasing its value as a settlement would draw more of that making it counterproductive IMO.

The main thing being missed with the idea of wanting to make it explicitly evil is you remove plausible deniability. So anyone owning property there would be marked and hunted; it would become an infiltration hot spot for team good. People rping there same. Intermingling provides cover. All evil designation would be terrible for evil rp.

Slavery should be a thing in Sib though for sure.

[D4wN]

Sibayad being a proper evil settlement would be neat. But yeah, you'd need enough support and forces to beat back the surfacers who's want to end it. In saying that, the server isn't what it was a few years ago and right now I think you'd have little to no opposition being evil in Sib if you have a handful of capable PVPers. I'd personally love to see more life in Sib since most of the times I do visit it's dead. I remember the active time during the Von Brandts and how much fun Sib was then. Hasn't been the same since they left tbh.

[Edens_Fall]

Sibayad being a proper evil settlement would be neat. But yeah, you'd need enough support and forces to beat back the surfacers who's want to end it. In saying that, the server isn't what it was a few years ago and right now I think you'd have little to no opposition being evil in Sib if you have a handful of capable PVPers. I'd personally love to see more life in Sib since most of the times I do visit it's dead. I remember the active time during the Von Brandts and how much fun Sib was then. Hasn't been the same since they left tbh.

Those unforgettable days, for them I live.

[AstralUniverse]

Many groups have tried over the years to set up an Evil organization in Sibayad. Sometimes with the Merchant League, Sometimes without. The issue all faced was the one already mentioned here. Unless your own force is large enough and skilled enough to counter raids from the various "Good" surface factions, you'll just end up burned out on PvP.

Perhaps if you held the fort outside town it might work?

Regardless, a successful Evil group in Sibayad would need to be lowkey, and if you're going that route it would be better to live in an RP hub like Cordor or Guldorand.

This is all very very true. Exactly my experience and observation too.

[AlonelyBard]

Sibayad being a proper evil settlement would be neat. But yeah, you'd need enough support and forces to beat back the surfacers who's want to end it. In saying that, the server isn't what it was a few years ago and right now I think you'd have little to no opposition being evil in Sib if you have a handful of capable PVPers. I'd personally love to see more life in Sib since most of the times I do visit it's dead. I remember the active time during the Von Brandts and how much fun Sib was then. Hasn't been the same since they left tbh.

I think we've mostly seen Sibayad fall out of fashion because of both the mechanical changes and the addition of new settlements. (New) Guldorand already has that sort of "rogueish" settlement that can let people be sorta evil, which used to be more of Sibayad's schtick. The addition of Dis as a meeting place for good/evil also removed some more of what made Sibayad unique, but I believe the biggest change by far was the changes to writs.
Before writ changes, most people would be in Sibayad running the Orc fort in an eternal cycle to hit level 30, the writs themselves in the settlement were even nerfed because people believed that they were giving too much XP/Gold in a time where writs were repeatable. This still hasn't been changed, and you're getting a non-repeatable level 16~ quest that only gives 2k XP and 1000 Gold.
RP tends to die out when there's not really a mechanical reason to be there, and sadly I think this has hit Sibayad the hardest, it's a wonderful area on the server and definitely fits an aesthetic that no other location can really hope to match. Barring the small few people looking to do desert RP, what exactly does Sibayad offer people that couldn't already be given from Guldorand, Dis, or the Shadow Trade Post?

[D4wN]

Sibayad being a proper evil settlement would be neat. But yeah, you'd need enough support and forces to beat back the surfacers who's want to end it. In saying that, the server isn't what it was a few years ago and right now I think you'd have little to no opposition being evil in Sib if you have a handful of capable PVPers. I'd personally love to see more life in Sib since most of the times I do visit it's dead. I remember the active time during the Von Brandts and how much fun Sib was then. Hasn't been the same since they left tbh.

I think we've mostly seen Sibayad fall out of fashion because of both the mechanical changes and the addition of new settlements. (New) Guldorand already has that sort of "rogueish" settlement that can let people be sorta evil, which used to be more of Sibayad's schtick. The addition of Dis as a meeting place for good/evil also removed some more of what made Sibayad unique, but I believe the biggest change by far was the changes to writs.
Before writ changes, most people would be in Sibayad running the Orc fort in an eternal cycle to hit level 30, the writs themselves in the settlement were even nerfed because people believed that they were giving too much XP/Gold in a time where writs were repeatable. This still hasn't been changed, and you're getting a non-repeatable level 16~ quest that only gives 2k XP and 1000 Gold.
RP tends to die out when there's not really a mechanical reason to be there, and sadly I think this has hit Sibayad the hardest, it's a wonderful area on the server and definitely fits an aesthetic that no other location can really hope to match. Barring the small few people looking to do desert RP, what exactly does Sibayad offer people that couldn't already be given from Guldorand, Dis, or the Shadow Trade Post?

That's a very good point yeah. It's really sad cause Sib has so much potential. I used to love walking around there with the chance of encountering baddies and having conflict RP. It was always a place where you weren't really allowed to attack each other, even if it wasn't as enforced as in Dis or Shadovar TP. It created really fun and tense situations.

[DM Monkey]

There is nothing holding players back from doing this other than their own drive, lack of imagination, or lack of interest. If you like this kind of RP and you like Sibayad, go make it happen!

[Hazard]

There is nothing holding players back from doing this other than their own drive, lack of imagination, or lack of interest. If you like this kind of RP and you like Sibayad, go make it happen!

No. I don't think it's the players that are lacking.

A discussion about what could be added to Sibayad to bring life back into it isn't harmful. A lot has changed in other settlements, and some entirely new settlements have been added since Sibayad's introduction, and for a while Sibayad has remained largely unchanged.

The point about writ rewards is good, but Sibayad does lack certain amenities that other places do not.
For example, Dis has vaults where players can store their things, and higher security.
The Shadovar Tradepost has the same level of security, and a wisp which can be useful for communicating between Surfacers/UDers, because it is neither a halfling nor a goblin. The writs there are also very rewarding.

Sibayad is marketed as, well, a market. Maybe just adding 'more' shops could be its strong point above other places, leaning into the theme it already has going. It really doesn't have all that many shops, and some of them are far enough from the main bazaar that they don't get enough foot-traffic.

Maybe a touch up on the writs and a reshuffling/addition to shops would be all it needs to incentivise more activity.

It has the whole slavery thing going on for it too. I think adding some slaves as butler NPCs to some of the fancier homes could really help send the message this is a town where slavery happens, and make it more difficult to ignore. You want to own a fancy manzil home? Maybe it comes with a slave and all the moral implications that brings for your character.

[AstralUniverse]

We also never see any slaves in Sibayad and I wonder why that is. Could it be because it's mechanically optimal to start in the UD to get portals and free language? Something that actually incentivizes slavery in Sibayad could be interesting. The slavemaster and some slave npcs here and there are basically just decoration that doesnt really feel like it's supported by the server systems other than that it's just there. In Andunour you actually see slaves. I think I see slaves in Guldorand more than in Sibayad even.

Also, I dont know. DM Monkey says that perhaps we lack drive. But I also cant really ignore other posters who said that whenever a group tried they got stomped by surface settlements and goody factions and got burned out pretty fast (also, even if you dont burn out, how many times will you pvp the same factions before it gets tasteless?) because I've seen it happen a few times.

All things considered tho, Sibayad is not an explicitly evil settlement and unless players accidentally (or oocly coordinated) have a situation that there's an evil majority in Sibayad, chances are they would have hard times even establishing anything even without external pressure from surface factions.

I feel like over all Sibayad as it's set mechanically, draws in the kind of characters who want to mind their own buisness, which has a negative feedback loop and results in some players having even harder times getting anything spicy going on.

[Paint]

There is nothing holding players back from doing this other than their own drive, lack of imagination, or lack of interest. If you like this kind of RP and you like Sibayad, go make it happen!

There's not a lot of incentive to do much RP in Sibayad, afaik, and the folks who buy homes in Sib don't have much incentive to RP there either, so even if there was a group that wanted to move in and do RP there, they'd have to patiently wait for a bunch of quarters to go up before establishing themselves there, or awkwardly have their base of operations far away from Sibayad, and choose, for some reason, to RP out of Sibayad anyway.

It's a much easier leap in logic to own property in Sib and then go RP in Cordor, for instance, where there's a lot of RP already, and that momentum is hard to kill. Blaming the playerbase for Sibayad's lack of incentives isn't a very healthy perspective, either. Even if you really enjoy something, if you can't get more than yourself behind it, people aren't going to show up, and, again, momentum is a real PITA. There needs to be a real push to get RP going there from players and the DM staff, and some mechanical changes to the place to really see changes.

And if the interest isn't there, it isn't there, but I do happen to like conversations like these about what could be done to make it more appealing, and I don't think blaming players is the correct step, especially when there's interest, and people talking about how to make Sib more appealing, so that pushes in the future to make RP happen there are less prone to sudden disintegration.

[Quizmar]

There is nothing holding players back from doing this other than their own drive, lack of imagination, or lack of interest. If you like this kind of RP and you like Sibayad, go make it happen!

There's not a lot of incentive to do much RP in Sibayad, afaik, and the folks who buy homes in Sib don't have much incentive to RP there either, so even if there was a group that wanted to move in and do RP there, they'd have to patiently wait for a bunch of quarters to go up before establishing themselves there, or awkwardly have their base of operations far away from Sibayad, and choose, for some reason, to RP out of Sibayad anyway.

It's a much easier leap in logic to own property in Sib and then go RP in Cordor, for instance, where there's a lot of RP already, and that momentum is hard to kill. Blaming the playerbase for Sibayad's lack of incentives isn't a very healthy perspective, either. Even if you really enjoy something, if you can't get more than yourself behind it, people aren't going to show up, and, again, momentum is a real PITA. There needs to be a real push to get RP going there from players and the DM staff, and some mechanical changes to the place to really see changes.

And if the interest isn't there, it isn't there, but I do happen to like conversations like these about what could be done to make it more appealing, and I don't think blaming players is the correct step, especially when there's interest, and people talking about how to make Sib more appealing, so that pushes in the future to make RP happen there are less prone to sudden disintegration.

This is what I don't like, that right now Sibayad is a vacation destination for a certain cabal of Cordor nobles, I think at the very least to bring some life into the area to own property you should have to be a citizen, and the properties should also include shops. That way its ensured that the ones occupying the quarters are atleast partially incentivized to actually use the area

[Quizmar]

Also it makes no sense to me why the Sibayad merchants league would outlaw monster races and drow, I don't see why they wouldn't be happy to take their coin

[Kythana]

This is what I don't like, that right now Sibayad is a vacation destination for a certain cabal of Cordor nobles, I think at the very least to bring some life into the area to own property you should have to be a citizen, and the properties should also include shops. That way its ensured that the ones occupying the quarters are atleast partially incentivized to actually use the area

As someone who has owned property in Sibayad on different characters now, I absolutely agree. The main benefit is that you always have a house no matter what happens. So if you're looking to play a character that might get exiled from a settlement, Sib makes an obvious choice for a fallback.

But beyond that, you almost never visit beyond checking the shops and going home.

I'd almost wonder if it would be a good idea to turn Sibayad into a Radiant Heart/Sencliff style pseudo settlement where you can "work" for the Merchant League or something, and high enough ranks permit purchasing the best quarters there.

[Edens_Fall]

Also it makes no sense to me why the Sibayad merchants league would outlaw monster races and drow, I don't see why they wouldn't be happy to take their coin

Back in the day monster races could visit for shopping, they just couldn't own homes or stores. However, as with most good things, players (myself included) try to utilize this to establish an evil surface qusai settlement in Sibayad. This in turn led to unending PvP parties within the town itself as team good tried to counter the influence of team evil. Eventually the staff got tired of the reports and drama and the town's laws were changed to what we have today.

A simple summary of a complicated situation, but it works.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm a big supporter of an "evil" settlement on the surface, but I don't think Sibayad is the place. In my opinion the only way it works is if its more grey than a black and white comparison, and the best way to get to that point is to create a benefit or a need that only that settlement can provide.

(silly, but still...) Examples:

"Yeah, Ebolville is distasteful, but the snickerdoodles they bring back from their Maztican settlements are to die for"

"We can't attack Skankytown, because that giant glass orb under the city actually blocks a huge gateway to one of the layers of hell, and the entire island would be overrun with fruit shaped demons if it breaks!. And even if the battle doesn't break it, you know those vile villains of Skankytown will as a last resort!"

Because of SIbayad's distance from the main island, it's really hard to tie a value to it in regard to arelith proper's ecosystem. And as a result, you will often have crusader style rp pitting them as the enemy to invade, or vice versa. Which is fine, but already exists in Anundor. That's not to say that sibayad couldn't be more fleshed out, but at its best it's going to be a neutral location.