Settlement Election Integrity

[MarkRed]

Is the meta of running settlements to make being in the opposition to your settlement so miserable that your opposition doesn't feel like they can roleplay there or participate, then call the DMs on them when they become more active in that space to vote?

Where's the lines? I don't want to be forced to RP with people I don't want to RP with just so my say in a settlement is 'legitimate.' I feel like if my character's been part of a settlement for awhile, is an active participant in roleplay on Arelith, and they talk to someone who wants to change the current status quo and hear something they like, they should be able to vote in that election.

Fewer truer words have been spoken than this, have run into this alot on the past few PCs I have played. Won't say anything further to devolve the thread.

[Aeryeris]

• Seeing new or previously inactive characters engage in public debate;

This one bullet stands pretty far out from all of the others. Imo there is basically nothing else a PC can do after coming back from a hiatus, or coming to the Isle for the first time, other than speak with people and gather information on what is happening in the now.

How is this stressful? It's one of the core building blocks of RPing in general. Roleplaying and interacting with your fellow players to find more information?

I think there's something I'm missing, "Public Debate" is also a pretty vague term that any question asked in a public space could be labeled as.

Unshelving the moment an election occurs and immediately entering the debate surrounding said election. There is nothing wrong with unshelving and becoming politically active generally. But there is a definite trend of people coming back specifically for elections. Those characters often immediately disappear again after the election concludes. It is quite telling I think.

[MarkRed]

• Seeing new or previously inactive characters engage in public debate;

This one bullet stands pretty far out from all of the others. Imo there is basically nothing else a PC can do after coming back from a hiatus, or coming to the Isle for the first time, other than speak with people and gather information on what is happening in the now.

How is this stressful? It's one of the core building blocks of RPing in general. Roleplaying and interacting with your fellow players to find more information?

I think there's something I'm missing, "Public Debate" is also a pretty vague term that any question asked in a public space could be labeled as.

Unshelving the moment an election occurs and immediately entering the debate surrounding said election. There is nothing wrong with unshelving and becoming politically active generally. But there is a definite trend of people coming back specifically for elections. Those characters often immediately disappear again after the election concludes. It is quite telling I think.

That last line specifically about going missing after the election was the missing link, thank you.

[Second Breakfast]

I do think the current length of 4.5 days for elections runs a little longer than it should. You definitely feel like the election cycle is overstaying its welcome by then. Most candidates have already gotten out their platforms or manifestos and most have already voted. Certainly those who are active players involved in the settlement and its politics have voted; I think it's safe to say that the longer that the election cycle lasts for, the more likely it'll be that there will be characters coming out of the woodwork to cast their votes, even if they've not been all that active in the time leading up.

[TooManyPotatoes]

I do think the current length of 4.5 days for elections runs a little longer than it should. You definitely feel like the election cycle is overstaying its welcome by then. Most candidates have already gotten out their platforms or manifestos and most have already voted. Certainly those who are active players involved in the settlement and its politics have voted; I think it's safe to say that the longer that the election cycle lasts for, the more likely it'll be that there will be characters coming out of the woodwork to cast their votes, even if they've not been all that active in the time leading up.

It's a difficult balance to hit.

I do agree they feel long and everyone probably HAS put their vote in who was going to by 3 days in, but at the same time they offer some leaway to the poor settlement leader who took that rare weekend off and comes back to find someone else in charge. I wonder if a system could be put in place where a citizen "calls" the election and the settlement leader has 24 hours to respond (talk to settlement npc indicating they saw the notice) and it concludes 2-3 days (for example) from when they do (or 4 days total if they never respond).

But I suspect that's a lot of work for someone to code and wouldn't be high on the priority list.

As to the general concerns of election intregrity, I don't really get it. As a former settlement leader myself, I've never felt more assured that elections are being overseen properly. Good response from the DM team to make an announcement of the nature and extent of the problem they had to deal with and how they are approaching it.

Always gonna be chancers/scoundrels, and I'm not at all surprised by a 34% figure in this case. The settlement in question has a relatively small "natural" voting base and the "stakes" in this case were pretty high/historical.

[LurkingShadow]

Elections can be (and often are) extremely stressful for the candidates involved. They last 4 irl days and 16 hours, and for that duration very high demands are placed on the candidates, even if everyone plays within the rules.

Having to also worry about people playing unfair adds to that stress.
Things like...

• Suddenly seeing a bunch of new or previously inactive characters pop up and run to the election NPC;

• Seeing new or previously inactive characters engage in public debate;

• Seeing people actively talking about the election on multiple characters;

• Seeing unfounded accusations of OOC foul-play.

...Add a ton of stress to elections. Settlement leaders suffer a higher-than-normal burn-out rate on Arelith. A lot of people simply don't want to do the job because... Well, it's a job, and it comes with some responsibility.

I am very thankful to see the DMs take a public stance against election foul-play.

I guess I am a bit nuts when I think it should last for weeks, if not a month to get a proper election going with more election work. As it is now, it often ends up in no work to gain a platform and its all rushed. You could work towards it before an election but im not sure anyone would care or take you serious before its a known thing an election is ongoing.

EDIT: Then perhaps have the ballots open in the last week of the month. This also gives people time to really put effort into their RP more than just dropping by to vote. They could roleplay towards one candidate. Even those "outsiders" who want to make a difference.

[Aeryeris]

Elections can be (and often are) extremely stressful for the candidates involved. They last 4 irl days and 16 hours, and for that duration very high demands are placed on the candidates, even if everyone plays within the rules.

Having to also worry about people playing unfair adds to that stress.
Things like...

• Suddenly seeing a bunch of new or previously inactive characters pop up and run to the election NPC;

• Seeing new or previously inactive characters engage in public debate;

• Seeing people actively talking about the election on multiple characters;

• Seeing unfounded accusations of OOC foul-play.

...Add a ton of stress to elections. Settlement leaders suffer a higher-than-normal burn-out rate on Arelith. A lot of people simply don't want to do the job because... Well, it's a job, and it comes with some responsibility.

I am very thankful to see the DMs take a public stance against election foul-play.

I guess I am a bit nuts when I think it should last for weeks, if not a month to get a proper election going with more election work. As it is now, it often ends up in no work to gain a platform and its all rushed. You could work towards it before an election but im not sure anyone would care or take you serious before its a known thing an election is ongoing.

EDIT: Then perhaps have the ballots open in the last week of the month. This also gives people time to really put effort into their RP more than just dropping by to vote. They could roleplay towards one candidate. Even those "outsiders" who want to make a difference.

This only works when candidates / settlement leaders are relatively stable, and don't go inactive within the first month of their settlement leadership. Election frequency is high not just because of the relatively short 28 IRL day cooldown on elections, but also because a fair amount of settlement leaders run out of steam, disappear, r decide that they don't want the responsibility, or take a step back for any other reason.

Personally I think elections last too long. After about 3 IRL days they grow stagnant and it's just a slog of 'don't get assassinated and await the result'. At least, this has been my experience with them. I do not recall a single election where I felt day 4 and 5 added anything other than reduced sleep.

[LurkingShadow]

Elections can be (and often are) extremely stressful for the candidates involved. They last 4 irl days and 16 hours, and for that duration very high demands are placed on the candidates, even if everyone plays within the rules.

Having to also worry about people playing unfair adds to that stress.
Things like...

• Suddenly seeing a bunch of new or previously inactive characters pop up and run to the election NPC;

• Seeing new or previously inactive characters engage in public debate;

• Seeing people actively talking about the election on multiple characters;

• Seeing unfounded accusations of OOC foul-play.

...Add a ton of stress to elections. Settlement leaders suffer a higher-than-normal burn-out rate on Arelith. A lot of people simply don't want to do the job because... Well, it's a job, and it comes with some responsibility.

I am very thankful to see the DMs take a public stance against election foul-play.

I guess I am a bit nuts when I think it should last for weeks, if not a month to get a proper election going with more election work. As it is now, it often ends up in no work to gain a platform and its all rushed. You could work towards it before an election but im not sure anyone would care or take you serious before its a known thing an election is ongoing.

EDIT: Then perhaps have the ballots open in the last week of the month. This also gives people time to really put effort into their RP more than just dropping by to vote. They could roleplay towards one candidate. Even those "outsiders" who want to make a difference.

This only works when candidates / settlement leaders are relatively stable, and don't go inactive within the first month of their settlement leadership. Election frequency is high not just because of the relatively short 28 IRL day cooldown on elections, but also because a fair amount of settlement leaders run out of steam, disappear, r decide that they don't want the responsibility, or take a step back for any other reason.

Personally I think elections last too long. After about 3 IRL days they grow stagnant and it's just a slog of 'don't get assassinated and await the result'. At least, this has been my experience with them. I do not recall a single election where I felt day 4 and 5 added anything other than reduced sleep.

There is obvious drawbacks. As I said, it wont happen but in my dream scenario it be more long lasting.

[Spriggan Bride]

.
Always gonna be chancers/scoundrels, and I'm not at all surprised by a 34% figure in this case. The settlement in question has a relatively small "natural" voting base and the "stakes" in this case were pretty high/historical.

Not just that but there has rarely been an election there where the winner wasn’t obvious and chosen before. Much less an election where both candidates weren’t of the preferred race. Many players may not have been clear on rules if that’s the only settlement they ever played since there was never in my memory a heated election there before. I’ve played many characters who were citizens for the benefits but didn’t bother with politics or voting at all because they weren’t the right race and there would never be an opening to have any real involvement.

Anyway I brought a character back because I thought they’d have opportunities now that were never available before which meant I never got to really play as I wanted. Thankfully I resisted the temptation to vote but I don’t see anything wrong with a return to take part in a new era if you don’t vote until you’ve stuck around a while again, ie waiting for the next election

[Xerah]

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Always gonna be chancers/scoundrels, and I'm not at all surprised by a 34% figure in this case. The settlement in question has a relatively small "natural" voting base and the "stakes" in this case were pretty high/historical.

Not just that but there has rarely been an election there where the winner wasn’t obvious and chosen before. Much less an election where both candidates weren’t of the preferred race. Many players may not have been clear on rules if that’s the only settlement they ever played since there was never in my memory a heated election there before. I’ve played many characters who were citizens for the benefits but didn’t bother with politics or voting at all because they weren’t the right race and there would never be an opening to have any real involvement.

Anyway I brought a character back because I thought they’d have opportunities now that were never available before which meant I never got to really play as I wanted. Thankfully I resisted the temptation to vote but I don’t see anything wrong with a return to take part in a new era if you don’t vote until you’ve stuck around a while again, ie waiting for the next election

I was personally involved in 5 elections, and that were EDIT: NOT determined before. I thought I had enough support, but it was far from certain that I was going to win (though, the last 2 on Katernin were much more confident; though there were a lot of people coming from nowhere).

The other election I was involved in was definitely "pre-determined" (one of the year+ long rulers which I knew I had no chance at winning) but it was part of a character arc to call and fail (though that didn't stop the OOC negativity I got from it; not from the leader, of course).

I do understand and empathize that you can see something cool that could happen in the settlement so you want to support that line of RP and want to jump back in, but best to let the people who are involved in the narrative run it until you can get more involved.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

As far as the election period goes, which is a bit different from the topic but since it came up, I have an opinion- I personally would prefer something along the lines of this.

Election is called, one real life week "campaign" period. New candidate window cut off after 4 days.

24 hour voting window on day 8.

[Eyeliner]

It could be shortened but you need more than 24 hours to let people with lives outside the game have some breathing room.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

It could be shortened but you need more than 24 hours to let people with lives outside the game have some breathing room.

Do you really in today's world? voting takes about 5 minutes of one's time, if someone really wants to get a vote in, I bet they can make it work in 24 hours. And I think an expanded campaign period gives folks time to seek out potential voters before they actually voted.

[solar separation]

It could be shortened but you need more than 24 hours to let people with lives outside the game have some breathing room.

Do you really in today's world? voting takes about 5 minutes of one's time, if someone really wants to get a vote in, I bet they can make it work in 24 hours. And I think an expanded campaign period gives folks time to seek out potential voters before they actually voted.

this is still a video game mostly played by people that have real life responsibilities to tend to before getting on to play pretend.
the current length of the election is more than fine. i don't see why restricting it to a specific day would help the issues presented.

[Subtext]

After having been fairly heavily involved in several elections...I think a 3 day voting period would be sufficient especially given the possible frequency.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

It could be shortened but you need more than 24 hours to let people with lives outside the game have some breathing room.

Do you really in today's world? voting takes about 5 minutes of one's time, if someone really wants to get a vote in, I bet they can make it work in 24 hours. And I think an expanded campaign period gives folks time to seek out potential voters before they actually voted.

this is still a video game mostly played by people that have real life responsibilities to tend to before getting on to play pretend.
the current length of the election is more than fine. i don't see why restricting it to a specific day would help the issues presented.

Well, from what I have heard the vast majority of the votes come in day one anyways. So, in my opinion, having a lead in period where no one can vote to give the candidates time to politic and build up votes the right way followed by a one day voting period is optimal. You couldn't have made your point any louder (or brighter) that you disagree, and that's cool.

What I don't get the "It's Just a game" argument, not because I don't agree that it's just a game, but rather why it's a big deal someone might have to miss a vote if it's just a game. More often than not, people will be able to get on. And when they can't, it's the same as missing anything else because of the vastly more important real world.

[Eyeliner]

I don't see a lot of point in arguing a suggestion that's very likely not going to happen, but yes there are days I can't log in because of work and family obligations. If I can't vote, fine, but I'd like to be able to and don't see any reason to make it a narrow time window except to use that to block out the players who aren't able to be online all the time. If you want adults to be able to play this game there needs to be flexibility with things like that. I also don't think that would block motivated players from voting with alts which seems like the biggest problem here and what needs to be looked at, I mean no one should be able to vote with two characters, even if they are both active in the settlement.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

"The point" from my perspective is its better for the people involved in the election. I've only had to wait once, but I quite remember being over the anticipation after about 24 hours. And since they are the ones putting in the work, that kinda makes them the most important consideration.

Is it off topic? Sorta, people above my initial post were talking about the length of an election period and I had a thought.

Am I the only person who thinks it could be shorter with an election runway before hand? Maybe, but that's a conversation for another day, and knowing me that day is coming eventually.

Am I being disrespectful of people's real lives by even thinking this is a good idea? I don't think so, since as often as it can feel like you are the only one with a real life in this game most of us have one. One of the keys to a healthy balance is accepting you are going to miss things from time to time.

[Llopast]

It would be fair to, at least, determine the "active settlement RP" for the players to acknowledge.
Like is it enough to sit in the square and chat about the current events in the settlements once in a while or are you expected to talk to the officials/ be the one, RP the Military, post something on the boards, etc?

Also there is always a timezone factor. I remember there was a chief who had like -9 timezone difference with me (-6 with EU players, I think). Consequently, a chief recruited the government from their specific timezone. As a result I personally had not met a man (a woman?) or a single official even once in 3 IG years even though I was pretty active and RPed within the city mostly. Also imagine a nightmare being an assassin who has to kill a guy from a -12 timezone with you without going completely OOC
Something to keep in mind; cannot offer a proper solution here.

[Martoc]

Sounds like you have a way to check logs for activity level, so why not just hard-code it? If they go to vote, behind the scenes a script runs and checks their activity level (as defined by you), and they get denied voting if the threshold isn't met. Possibly show an IC or OOC message explaining why.

[Queen Titania]

I do think the current length of 4.5 days for elections runs a little longer than it should. You definitely feel like the election cycle is overstaying its welcome by then. Most candidates have already gotten out their platforms or manifestos and most have already voted. Certainly those who are active players involved in the settlement and its politics have voted; I think it's safe to say that the longer that the election cycle lasts for, the more likely it'll be that there will be characters coming out of the woodwork to cast their votes, even if they've not been all that active in the time leading up.

It's a difficult balance to hit.

I do agree they feel long and everyone probably HAS put their vote in who was going to by 3 days in, but at the same time they offer some leaway to the poor settlement leader who took that rare weekend off and comes back to find someone else in charge. I wonder if a system could be put in place where a citizen "calls" the election and the settlement leader has 24 hours to respond (talk to settlement npc indicating they saw the notice) and it concludes 2-3 days (for example) from when they do (or 4 days total if they never respond).

But I suspect that's a lot of work for someone to code and wouldn't be high on the priority list.

As to the general concerns of election intregrity, I don't really get it. As a former settlement leader myself, I've never felt more assured that elections are being overseen properly. Good response from the DM team to make an announcement of the nature and extent of the problem they had to deal with and how they are approaching it.

Always gonna be chancers/scoundrels, and I'm not at all surprised by a 34% figure in this case. The settlement in question has a relatively small "natural" voting base and the "stakes" in this case were pretty high/historical.

I think elections should automatically get called when they come up with a timer on how many days until the next election displayed. Would be useful information for candidates and the elected to know and play with.

I also think they are too long and should be cut by at least half a day to 4 if not 3.

I also think terms should have a limit on the number of times you can run before you have to step down.

Lastly, I think citizenship cost is too cheap. At least with the current economy, 10,000 is a much quicker, almost simple earn than when I first started in 2010. I would rather it quadrupled than halved.

I think all four of these would make elections more interesting on the topic of election mechanics.

On election integrity, we do our best to check each one. This is the first in a long time where we've had to reverse the decision. I hope it's the last. (Coding it to check if someone has RPed enough to vote would be a bit of a pain. Since we can reverse cheating, it's not too big of a need at the moment as well.)

[Hazard]

I also think terms should have a limit on the number of times you can run before you have to step down.

I think this sounds like a good idea, and I say that without any past or present settlement leaders in mind. It's just a nice idea.

But I think it could be a cool touch if "term limits" were added, that different cities have different rules.

Elven and Dwarven settlements for example, I always felt like the possibility of longer leadership made sense (especially before the time-squish) because they're so much longer lived than humans, so I imagine their governments would change less often than human ones. Something that could be reflected slightly by just giving them a bit more than a human settlement might get.

I dunno, getting carried away, but it'd be nice to see different settlements have slightly different political mechanics that add flavour to whatever it is the team want to be going on with that place and the vibe there.

Maybe even a way to vote for different political systems, like councils, dual-leadership, getting carried away on the forums, or consolidating power.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Since you mentioned brog and myon, I am of the mind that the elected official should be beneath a npc king. One, you don't really elect kings, and two kings tend to stay around longer than an average pc's lifespan by a good bit barring a regime filled with turmoil and throne contestants trying to kill said king (or queen). And the lifespan thing is real. The current queen of Evermeet is over 700 years old, and while she has only been queen since the mid 1360's, when she was born the king she replaced (her father) was the current king.

So, just something to wrap your head around, the elves of Evermeet had the same ruler for at least 700 years.

Myon using AR years has had what, almost 30 kings in less than 200?

It's a small thing, one I wouldn't really mention without it coming up, but it is 100% something that makes me go "ewww" when I think about it.

[TheDoctor]

Lastly, I think citizenship cost is too cheap. At least with the current economy, 10,000 is a much quicker, almost simple earn than when I first started in 2010. I would rather it quadrupled than halved.

Gods yes... 10K is like a drop in the bucket. We have people with bank breaking levels of gold... I would even argue 100k is a fair price.

[BlankStare16]

I also think terms should have a limit on the number of times you can run before you have to step down.

10000%

Turnover in settlement leadership is desirable with the number of players we have. More chances for a newer PC to step into the top spots, less stagnation in Settlement RP. Please do this.