Award cycling races: Giants

[kirisin]

Disclosure:
I’m going to lay out who I am and who I play as well as my intent, so my bias and position is clear. I play Imor, a stone half giant that has been a large part of Jotunhold leadership for about two-ish years. For those that don’t know me she is for all intents and purposes the second jarl of the community, I’ve run events, been involved in plot lines regarding Jotunhold independence from Guldorand and come to know many different people for better and worse.

Intent:
I’d like to have a discussion regarding the award cycle and the removal of half giants from the pool of selectable races, Primarily I’d like more information as to why the decision was made but I’d also like to speak my piece because I think it’s a mistake and overall going to be damaging to the community, Giant or not. I wont lie, its annoyed me but I intend to keep it cordial and respectful at least on my end.

The perspective as I see it:
Half giants have been moved out of rotation, not permanently but with no warning and no reasoning why it was selected under the announcement, it has been difficult to find much in the way of official reasoning from anyone on discord. I could not exactly find when this was last done last but to my knowledge it was around four years ago when cambion got removed. (So far permanently to my knowledge). So, starting with half giant is the beginning of award cycling. I assume the reason half giants were selected first were due to numbers from what I have been able to piece together.

Now I don’t have the census data as its missing from the last post. But I do my best to keep up with Half giants new, returning. I have recollection on the numbers, but I don’t want to post false data here. What I find is typical is that there tend to be two types of half giant players, those that start a giant and keep with it a few months before going inactive, and those that tend to find a community and becoming long lasting characters, be it Jotunhold or otherwise.

We then have some small information from Irongron regarding award cycleing:

“I do want to end with explaining why I'd like less overall reward races at any one time though... Managed correctly it can be a huge boost to server narrative - if only 3-4 reward races were available, AND pkayers knew it would only be temporary we would get a sudden surge in those races - communities would form, conflicts arise, and so forth. We saw this clearly just after giant races happened, or vampires. With too many options, that stay available for too long this doesn't happen so much.”

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=44510&start=50#p336482

My questions:

• What manner will determine the rotations, what numbers and values, how are you measuring that data, simply total or are you measuring active characters, if its active characters how are you measuring the activity?
• How long will these rotations last, are we talking weeks, months, years?
• Why are half giants being painted with a broad brush and not the individual subtypes?
• Why are Frirbolgs not being included in the rotation?
• Why have no other award races that have been around longer not been cycled like aasimir, tiefling, avarial, gloaming.

My thoughts:

• I think that overall, this is going to harm communities that already exist such as jotunhold, and in jotunholds case RP outside of it as we tend to be quite inclusive. With a lack of new blood, the communities that centre around particular races will be harder to maintain as old blood dies out, becomes busy with life, etc.
• I fear this is simply going to incentivise people to play roll bait characters and add to Fear of missing out. Consequently, this will harm long form roleplay which in my opinion will be a net negative for the server.
• I fear the logic fuelling this train of thought, while sincere, may be misplaced or lacking in context that could further create an unhealthy form of roleplay in which when new races come out, people won't make a character of the new award but because they fear missing out on it, in the long run hampering the RP communities that could have developed when people don't do it for an earnest love of the lore of a race.

A note:
The half giant community being new didn’t cause them to develop a community, the first few months when the award was released most of the new half giants filtered out and stopped playing. Jotunhold was largely empty when half giants were not running it.
It was through active love and dedication by players running half giants and trying to include people to have fun with everyone that a community developed. Jotunholds community is a labour of love by players, not a simple psychological desire because of lack of availability, it was peoples work to create the community that was the bigger factor and a love of a very interesting race.

In short make cool shit it will draw people to it. And if enough cool people are drawn to it, they will make a community out of it.

Thank you for reading and please be respectful.
Imor

[Kythana]

What manner will determine the rotations, what numbers and values, how are you measuring that data, simply total or are you measuring active characters, if its active characters how are you measuring the activity?

I'm curious about this too. The last player active count data was four months ago, and all the images have been taken down too, so I can't even see historical data.

I'd like to know how many half-giants there have been, and if there was any sort of problematic RP surrounding them. They've always seemed... fine? Coming from an outsider perspective, who doesn't do much Jotunhold RP, I've never really seen half-giants as particularly bad in any way, not compared to a multitude of other award races.

[rosediode]

I will preface by saying I have no desire to play Half-Giants, or to be honest, subject myself to the grind to try and earn a greater or major for a concept I am interested in.

I do however think it is a very weird thing to cycle out an award that has been central to creating roleplay and a community in Jotunhold. I understand bumping them up to greater, or even major if you want the numbers to slow down, but removing them entirely with little to no explanation seems callus to those who put in the work to create roleplay for others who were interested in that specific niche. For what it's worth as well, I certainly don't see as many half-giants as several of our other award races.

As a player, I would appreciate if the team were more transparent with these decisions, even if afterwards. Especially when they may have a pretty big impact on a certain subset of our community, especially when that community appears to be trying to build inclusive interaction most surface characters can choose to opt into. Terms like cycling can be a sore spot, because discussions of fixture cycling and the like have been discussed in the past but never really come to fruition. Demonstrating that there is a plan in place could ease some of those woes.

[Biolab00]

I've been playing half-giants but was never ever been amongst the RP within jotunhold nor met them even a few times at all.
Granted, i've heard plenty of good words and stories from their commitment and also plenty of hearsay as well but there're 2 concepts that I do not quite agree -

1) Half giants are after all, half giants. It's certainly alright to RP around giant concepts but...it gets weird when you start thinking of yourself as actual giant over the course of RP and perhaps even successfully deluded yourself as well.
2) I am not able to speak archaic or old english which is a major let down if the RP surrounds this particular concept, granted you can certainly start learning and all but hey, we're here to play and enjoy ourselves. Some do enjoy learning...just not me.

That is not to say that they're doing a bad job. In truth, the current jotunhold is very very very well done. It's simply that it's not a -all fit- which is the same for plenty of things.

Now... when you've a huge pool to choose from, there is no problem in having some, not able to join or some, can't agree to join.
BUT... it's certainly a countdown towards doomsday when the half-giant award race gets cycled out for the -current- faction running it.

It does not certainly mean for -All- Half giants player but just for the -Current- Jotunhold faction that is running it.

[Svrtr]

I've been playing half-giants but was never ever been amongst the RP within jotunhold nor met them even a few times at all.
Granted, i've heard plenty of good words and stories from their commitment and also plenty of hearsay as well but there're 2 concepts that I do not quite agree -

1) Half giants are after all, half giants. It's certainly alright to RP around giant concepts but...it gets weird when you start thinking of yourself as actual giant over the course of RP and perhaps even successfully deluded yourself as well.
2) I am not able to speak archaic or old english which is a major let down if the RP surrounds this particular concept, granted you can certainly start learning and all but hey, we're here to play and enjoy ourselves. Some do enjoy learning...just not me.

That is not to say that they're doing a bad job. In truth, the current jotunhold is very very very well done. It's simply that it's not a -all fit- which is the same for plenty of things.

Now... when you've a huge pool to choose from, there is no problem in having some, not able to join or some, can't agree to join.
BUT... it's certainly a countdown towards doomsday when the half-giant award race gets cycled out for the -current- faction running it.

It does not certainly mean for -All- Half giants player but just for the -Current- Jotunhold faction that is running it.

I intended not to comment much due to my bias, but I just wanted to add some clarification

None in the hold to as full giants. All of the ones in the hold remind others they are not full giants. They will refer to themselves as mongrel half bloods, of the blood of annam but of no place in ordning

The rp angle? When you're born of a people whose biggest point is their place in ordning and you don't have one, when you're born of the old old culture who revels in story and saga as a runt, when the hierarchy is one literally passed down by a deific blood father, how so you react? When your blood is nigh elemental (metaphorically), how would you feel? It's a massive eternal existential identity crisis. A temperament and strength that makes them alien to human cultures and cities, and being runts without a place in ordning forever scorned or pitied and looked down on by their Jotun parentage

The embrace of Jotun culture in the hold is the characters' answer to this existential question. They maintain a bastards pride and embrace the culture because, IC? That's all they have left, clinging to a culture that doesn't have place for them, honouring a tradition that wasn't made for them, and keeping these sagas they inherited but won't be a part of

Also Jotun lore is cool. Half giants raised by Jotun questioning their place in the world without ordning, half giants raised by humans trying to find meaning of their spirit, both unable to find proper belonging in either side of their heritage. It's great fun. When half giants were added, a number of people said they would just be RPed as tall humans, and I think that between when they were added now they have done well to carve out their own rp niche regardless. Having the option of those two sides of the same coin has provided some amazing interactions on both sides, and allowed for a great swath of variety and fun ways to interpret a race

It's been great fun and we have tried to work hard to be inclusive and fun for others and to show off these sagas and culture while also reminding others and maintaining that no we are not giants and that we cling to the culture in spite of it, but many people miss this nuance. The only people who have been claiming that half giants rp as full giants have been people on the outside who don't understand this nuance of the ordning and us clinging to the culture while acknowledging we are mongrel born half bloods because there is nothing else for us

Apologies for the rant but I felt it prudent to give context on the nuance of "rping a full giant" versus what we do of embracing the culture of Jotun while IC and OOC acknowledging we are not full jotun

[A Digital Vagrant]

I admit I don't understand the logic in removing a race that has had areas built around them, for the race specifically, for an indeterminate amount of time.

There are other races that are rarer in canon/Arelith lore that imo should have been rotated out instead, like the Shadovar, considering there are supposed to be only twenty-five thousand Shadovar on Toril.

[AnselHoenheim]

I think I'm suffering of the same issues of even approaching Jotunhold myself that has been already mentioned:

1) It's built around a major, or a greater award race, which makes more difficult integrate into the faction/settlement properly.

2) The use of archaic, or old english is hard to understand for people like me, who are not native english, and who has not the time, or the capabilities to be understanding this kind of speech.

3) The location, the infraestructure and the services offered in Jotunhold does not offer incentive for any kind of roleplay outside of housing and perhaps using the place for events.

Now that the team has decided to shelve the half giants from awards for an unknown period of time would create even more problems for bringing activity to Jotunhold, no matter how inclusive the players there could be, for me, this is a flaw in the design of Jotunhold itself.

[Morto]

I would like to mention how the jotunhold community is in my opinion the pinnacle of what Arelith should be trying to facilitate. The group here is overwhelmingly welcoming and inviting to all players, sharing lore, adventures, build help, hosting movie nights and so many positive aspects which exceed what is above par for a guild house on Arelith. Since that group has been inspired and centered around the Half-giant lore and play, it has absolutely inspired others to want to join along similar interests. No one is required to be a Half-giant to join in the revel and adventures and Discord, but it can be hugely rewarding to feel part of ownership of that RP through the lense of playing this reward race.

The unannounced complete removal of all 5 Half-giant subtypes feels like a harsh and jarring shutoff to the new players who no doubt would like to join the community. No other community seems as dependent upon these reward race availability as an option. (Avariel/fey seem to integrate well in Myon, Genasi/Teifling/Aasimar fit in anywhere humans can, etc.)

While I see the benefit in encouraging players to select a seasonal reward race to try and foster community I believe this can still be facilitated without such a hard removal of the Half-giants as a selectable option. (Potentially reduce 5 options to 1-2, or escalate rewards tiers, etc).

[kirisin]

While I see the benefit in encouraging players to select a seasonal reward race to try and foster community I believe this can still be facilitated without such a hard removal of the Half-giants as a selectable option. (Potentially reduce 5 options to 1-2, or escalate rewards tiers, etc).

In part this is why I asked the question of why they are being treated with a broad brush approach.

I've not seen a significant increase in stone giants since it got moved to major, perhaps one maybe two.

However lets try to keep the focus on the race and less so the hold

[Xerah]

1) Half giants are after all, half giants. It's certainly alright to RP around giant concepts but...it gets weird when you start thinking of yourself as actual giant over the course of RP and perhaps even successfully deluded yourself as well.
2) I am not able to speak archaic or old english which is a major let down if the RP surrounds this particular concept, granted you can certainly start learning and all but hey, we're here to play and enjoy ourselves. Some do enjoy learning...just not me.

This seems unduly harsh and a misrepresentation of the faction.

Your point 1, I never did see in my time there (as a half giant) anyone acting like this. I could see a half giant trying to show themselves off by claiming that, but it doesn't mean they believe it (but I didn't see anyone doing that either). They also might embrace the giant side of their heritage given they grew up with non-giant kin, but that is the fundamental aspect of all half races (be it half-elf, half-orc, etc.) do they favour one side over the other type of thing (Svrtr already covered this). For a half giant who favours the human side, the Keep doesn't even make much sense for that character to want to be involved with unless it's because I can so I will rent.

The second point, there is really only one character who speaks like this (the whole faction does not speak like this). I can understand ESL people having difficulties in keeping up with this but you can also RP it by asking what they meant (which I could understand might get tiring) since it is just as likely your character doesn't either. It is very much the same as someone using single elvish words in conversation. I didn't have any intent in speaking like that (I'm not ESL though) and didn't feel unwelcomed.

To Morto's point about the faction, I used my only major reward on the character and it didn't grip as I had wished (only played for like a month). And I still don't regret using it.

At any rate, I'm not sure it makes sense to remove these races. The only way it would is if you pre-planned a schedule for rotations of races so people could be aware (and even that is questionable to remove them in that situation)

[kirisin]

To Morto's point about the faction, I used my only major reward on the character and it didn't grip as I had wished (only played for like a month). And I still don't regret using it.

The part about not regretting using it is actually really heartening to hear, Granted I don't know your reasoning. And I'm sorry it was not a draw for you as you had hoped. I hope you enjoyed what you could of your time with it though.

[Xerah]

The part about not regretting using it is actually really heartening to hear, Granted I don't know your reasoning. And I'm sorry it was not a draw for you as you had hoped. I hope you enjoyed what you could of your time with it though.

Nothing to do with you guys, I just didn't like the mechanics of the Elementalist class (and that's not to knock the class either as I feel that it is a well designed class; just wasn't clicking for me).

[Gilbert K]

MOD EDIT

You can share you opinion without being rude or personally attacking people. Do better next time.

[kirisin]

“surely their community will survive a few less actual half-giants.”
As I am sure that Myon would survive without people being able to make elves, or Brog with dwarves or the Kobolds in the underdark, etcetera.

“What about lore integrity to the setting?”
I am uncertain exactly what you mean here. We follow what lore is available to us, we have a pantheon of gods, there are sources such as Giantcraft (2e) that we pull from, there do exist some lore sources in 3/3.5 but again these branch from Giantcraft.
Half giants themselves are a bit of an arelithism but I’ve seen nothing that comes to lore breaking proportions more so than many that I’ve seen tout 4e/5e sources because they wiki warrior.

“What about not making me have to look up all this "ye olde englishe" nonsense that someone unnamed literally just thought up to sound fancy? It's just not correctly done”
It’s been discussed a fair bit, Realistically the main source of it is the jarl, others do it to a lesser extent and we tend to keep it down when it’s a matter of importance, If you want to think its cringe, that’s fine your welcome to that opinion.

“The prevailing idea here seems to be that this community has done something wrong and is being punished for it.”
I don’t think we’ve done anything wrong, I also don’t think we are being punished, if you think that then either I’ve misrepresented my position, or you haven’t read it. My major point is that this will directly affect us negatively and when it cycles to other races the same thing will happen to other communities. Yes this will affect the jotunhold community which I get the feeling you have some enmity toward but the same will happen when the cycle changes.

“no one owes you an explanation as to why.”
Exactly, I’m not entitled to anything, this is why I am asking politely. Because I’m trying to see the logic and I would like to express my opinion to make the game better for us all.

I hope you have a wonderful day/evening

[Tecknooo]

To harp on some good points that the players themselves whom play active or even semi-active half-giant characters, they are inclusive to the core. They actively invite people to join in RP, Events, PvE content, and even OOC events when downtime permits or healthy breaks are wanted. I haven't once felt the opposite outside my own obligations to life which are sometime unavoidable.

My questions:

• What manner will determine the rotations, what numbers and values, how are you measuring that data, simply total or are you measuring active characters, if its active characters how are you measuring the activity?
• How long will these rotations last, are we talking weeks, months, years?
• Why are half giants being painted with a broad brush and not the individual subtypes?
• Why are Frirbolgs not being included in the rotation?
• Why have no other award races that have been around longer not been cycled like aasimir, tiefling, avarial, gloaming.

My second take is to include some points from the original post. I won't go into conspiracy theories of why this happened as it's just a waste of our time. But I would like to see transparency in regards to as why only (5) out of (50+ race/subraces) was hit with the phase out button and for how long?. Along with that, what others have question, the data on the March numbers of level 30 half-giants. If there could be some sort of public information on it, that'd be wonderful.

And my last take. While I may also be bias for half-giants in my post, my characters who've interacted with half-giants and Jotunhold have primarily been human or elf. I've had a frost half-giant who, not by the race but by the style of class ultimately led me to shelve it. To say Jotunhold was built for the half-giants is only partially true. While it is fundamentally a hold built around the concept, with the already low numbers of half-giants making it and sticking around as it is not a true settlement like Guldorand/Myon/Cordor/Bendir/Brogendenstein. That means they actively go out and invite anyone willing to try and interact with them. The old speech may be difficult to understand, but there are many there who can translate it into new English if it leaves you confused. I've done that for months, and there is even a dictionary of what they meme as 'Grymm speech'. But I personally just interpreted what ever they said at face value, even if it left me confused and RP'd off that, adding to the confusion but it was a core funny interaction for me.

Many rely on shared half-blood, comradery, and the inevitable OOC communications required to play in a non-settlement faction/guildhall. While you could remain purely IC or sit within the guildhall until someone comes along, not everyone has the time to do it unfortunately.

Hopefully we'll receive some data/news regarding the reasons and whys soon, but as many individuals have said, let's keep it cordial and constructive.

[Ork]

I think there are some fantastic half-giant characters and the players behind them are excellent writers. That said, half-giants were the most problematic add in terms of race solely because at their core they're decoupled from the setting and players have to navigate their existence bereft of any established foundation. Every other race can find examples of the archetypal paragon of their species. Half-giants had to navigate constructing that on their own which often and frequently conflicted with setting lore.

[MalKalz]

So I let this sit for a bit before answering - I guess I'll bite the bullet and give my response on the matter of Half-Giants.

Half giants have been moved out of rotation, not permanently but with no warning and no reasoning why it was selected under the announcement, it has been difficult to find much in the way of official reasoning from anyone on discord.

Race rotations happen without notice or warning - this is to not have people stockpile races and never do anything with them simply because they are being rotated. The reasoning of any race rotation is to cycle in new opportunities, re-evaluate other races, and consideration of lore and how something can be accurately represented, population density and ultimately the vision of the server as decided by Irongron. No rotation has gone without his input.

Now I don’t have the census data as its missing from the last post. But I do my best to keep up with Half giants new, returning. I have recollection on the numbers, but I don’t want to post false data here. What I find is typical is that there tend to be two types of half giant players, those that start a giant and keep with it a few months before going inactive, and those that tend to find a community and becoming long lasting characters, be it Jotunhold or otherwise.

I apologize on the loss of data - Discord change its stance on being a file hosting system and put expirations. It is why I recommend people NOT save images exclusively to Discord. All my tables from then were Discord links and expired. I could likely regenerate them myself, but at the same time I am not looking to do so - I intend to continue to move forward and potentially release more useful information in a more presentable manner.

There are always multiple cases to how a race is played and how numbers are reflected. You have those that get the immediate interest, but then lost the interest over time and shelve or delete. You then have those who stick around and play the character. But, you also have those that play the character sporadically and also not true to their representation and can bastardize a concept. In the end, the numbers I present are not reflective of the roleplay but of the level of activity and accessing of the server during a set time, and whether or not it is deleted.

2) I am not able to speak archaic or old english which is a major let down if the RP surrounds this particular concept, granted you can certainly start learning and all but hey, we're here to play and enjoy ourselves. Some do enjoy learning...just not me.

I have seen this a couple times in the thread - I am not certain where the focus on archaic or old English came from. Is there some direction that I have missed?

I admit I don't understand the logic in removing a race that has had areas built around them, for the race specifically, for an indeterminate amount of time.

Areas are built based on what fits in the vision of the server direction, to add new content and to do something interesting. Yet it is never promised to be permanent. Take all the Banite strongholds you find - they had shifted over the course of time and repurposed. Areas will always evolve and change. Jotunhold is no exception. But, there is no intent to change it at this time.

What manner will determine the rotations, what numbers and values, how are you measuring that data, simply total or are you measuring active characters, if its active characters how are you measuring the activity?

Consideration of rotation comes from:

• Popularity of the race vs the intended number.

• Balance - is the race released in a balanced state, overtuned or undertuned and needs to be reviewed?

• Length of time - has the race been available at a particular tier for some time?

• New race opportunities - can we introduce other races that may bring new blood to RP avenues and then look at migrating others?

• Lore - Does it fit? Is it a homebrew that we have taken on and is not new player friendly? Is it easy to reference without having to sit and study?

• Sensibility - Does it actually make sense to suddenly have a large number of these races around, interacting? This also ties to lore.

I am no expert on lore. I am never going to claim I am, so I always excuse myself from those discussions or reach out to individuals to gather as much understanding as I can. But, I can provide numeric values and input from what I see and gather to give my opinion. Whether it is accepted or not is another thing. And, even if we come to a decision collectively, what if Irongron doesn't want it that way? Then we make adjustments, compromises and present our case to see if what we feel can work or not.

How long will these rotations last, are we talking weeks, months, years?

Race rotations tend to happen every 6 months, give or take. We had a pause for a bit, and we have other races already in mind to be released eventually. But, focusing primarily on races alone means that our developers lose out on introducing new content. That being said, this does not mean in 6 months that a rotated out race may return, but it may be considered. It could just yield others being rotated out for newer race opportunities.

Why are half giants being painted with a broad brush and not the individual subtypes?

I would not say keeping around particular sub-types were ever the intention. If we were looking at rotating out Half-Giants, it would be the collective. This race came into fruition from a homebrew idea that was a testing ground. Irongron had said it himself, and you can find the quote on the wiki for Giants, that we were hesitant to add them for frequency and RP. It is good to see a collective of Half-Giants rally and make interesting RP. That means the race was successful in doing that. But, at the same time, it did not have the lore that was easily adaptable for new players to take up. As well, balance also had to be considered - the Half-Giants went through changes from their initial release and I understand people were upset there. Much like people are still going to be upset regardless of what I write here.

Why are Frirbolgs not being included in the rotation?

They were suggested to be rotated out as well. They were not excluded from the conversation. However, there is more lore surrounding Firbolg and how they are represented on Arelith, and Irongron wished to continue to have them remain available. As well they had a supported place and mythology. For now they will remain as is, but it does not remove the opportunity for them to be rotated out later.

Why have no other award races that have been around longer not been cycled like aasimir, tiefling, avarial, gloaming.

Some races like Tiefling and Aasimar have a more lore accurate representation and do have higher population numbers. Gloaming, correct me if I am mistaken, are not that old of a race. Avariel could be rotated at any time. However, other races like Dragons have been rotated out and have remained out for years - there was a kneejerk reaction then for it like there has been from some when Half-Giants were rotated. There is never a time where any race is exempt from being rotated out unless its a base race (even though I'd do away with all Gnomes).

I think that overall, this is going to harm communities that already exist such as jotunhold, and in jotunholds case RP outside of it as we tend to be quite inclusive. With a lack of new blood, the communities that centre around particular races will be harder to maintain as old blood dies out, becomes busy with life, etc.

Jotunhold really expanded around the players, and the developers took pride in it as they helped build the homebrewed lore around it. The community will remain and the characters that exist are not being taken out - you still have the rest of the server to interact with. It is just preventing new characters from joining as that race while it is rotated out.

But all races go through ups and downs - even the rotated ones. People will hold onto their characters, people will play when it fancies them or they have the time to dedicate to it. But Jotunhold as an area will remain - and if it ever fizzles down to emptiness due to the race still being rotated out and people not playing their Half-Giants further, the area can be re-evaluated and opened. Nothing is ever permanent in Arelith and should not be used as a reason to keep races in circulation versus not in circulation.

I fear the logic fuelling this train of thought, while sincere, may be misplaced or lacking in context that could further create an unhealthy form of roleplay in which when new races come out, people won't make a character of the new award but because they fear missing out on it, in the long run hampering the RP communities that could have developed when people don't do it for an earnest love of the lore of a race.

I would put more trust in the community - the same could have been said about Half-Giants. There was a fear internally from the team that players would not know how to represent a newer race as it came out and that it would dwindle RP. Dedicated players that care for the story will make it work, and will work on representing their character and race to the best of their ability. This is also the reason things get tied behind awards and applications as well, so that if there is too large of a concern it can be controlled.

Now that the team has decided to shelve the half giants from awards for an unknown period of time would create even more problems for bringing activity to Jotunhold, no matter how inclusive the players there could be, for me, this is a flaw in the design of Jotunhold itself.

An area / faction can live as long as the players put the effort in and want to tell a story. You need not a home to do it. You just need an interest in what you are doing. I have found that activity fluctuates based on the level of effort a person puts in and how open they are to outsider roleplay. I mean outsider in the sense of outside the faction - not just races.

I do not think the current players will have any issue attracting roleplay and telling stories based on us rotating out the race for an undetermined amount of time. I believe it stifles the new blood like they mentioned. But, that can happen to any race we rotate.

I would like to mention how the jotunhold community is in my opinion the pinnacle of what Arelith should be trying to facilitate. The group here is overwhelmingly welcoming and inviting to all players, sharing lore, adventures, build help, hosting movie nights and so many positive aspects which exceed what is above par for a guild house on Arelith. Since that group has been inspired and centered around the Half-giant lore and play, it has absolutely inspired others to want to join along similar interests. No one is required to be a Half-giant to join in the revel and adventures and Discord, but it can be hugely rewarding to feel part of ownership of that RP through the lense of playing this reward race.

I am glad that you feel so positively towards their community - it is nice to hear. I would encourage people that encounter this in any faction, in any interaction, to let the DMs know or to do a -recommend so they can be evaluated.

I will say that build help, hosting movie nights and other OOC activities through Discord or otherwise does not bear any weight on whether a race is rotated or not. These are all outside of Arelith. It is great that you can have an OOC community and feel part of it and I encourage people to find something they like doing and enjoy it. But, I don't think it serves any relevance in a defense of a race rotation.

At any rate, I'm not sure it makes sense to remove these races. The only way it would is if you pre-planned a schedule for rotations of races so people could be aware (and even that is questionable to remove them in that situation)

Unfortunately this is not our intent - while a schedule would be nice it would have negative effects on racial representation, roleplay and population density. Players have a tendency to prematurely act upon changes that they know are coming - take the Dweomercraft update, we have seen how players have already adjusted knowing OOC'ly the system is changing. This should never have happened. The same thing would happen with races.

Half giants themselves are a bit of an arelithism but I’ve seen nothing that comes to lore breaking proportions more so than many that I’ve seen tout 4e/5e sources because they wiki warrior.

A failure on our part is deviating from supported lore and creating Arelithism-esque races and lore that makes it hard for people to follow, requires investment in a lot more research and detracts from enjoyment of the game without the stress of getting it wrong. There have been many examples over the years, and I am not painting Half-Giants in this light only - so please do not take it as that. It is just that its a homebrew without as much lore supporting it as there are other races.

Along with that, what others have question, the data on the March numbers of level 30 half-giants. If there could be some sort of public information on it, that'd be wonderful.

I could pull the numbers again and I might. But roleplay does not happen at level 30 - any numbers are inclusive of all level ranges. I could care less if a person is 30 or 3, they are equally represented.

Regardless of what I say here, and I've said a lot and tried to answer a lot, people will still not be satisfied. I cannot satisfy everyone, and no change will ever satisfy everyone. People will always have an issue with it. But, we do discuss things and we do rotate out other races as well - who knows how long Half-Giants will remain out? For now, they will continue to remain as such unless advised by Irongron to reverse the decision.

Cheers.

[Svrtr]

A lot of really well said stuff

I still intend to refrain from posting in this thread too much, but I really want to thank you for the earnest genuine response. It went far above and beyond what any would ask for, and had no need tobe as well put as it was, so thank you.

I will only add that gloaming are as old as half giants, both were released 7/22/22. And I can agree that having numbers as milestones to see what the sort of consensus about if a race is too much or too little, and if numbers being referenced are bloated by people making and deleting or shelving after a month, but your words and candor are a welcome thing and do provide some relief. Ill leave it to the others to continue, or if numbers are provided I shall continue to lurk

[MalKalz]

A lot of really well said stuff

I still intend to refrain from posting in this thread too much, but I really want to thank you for the earnest genuine response. It went far above and beyond what any would ask for, and had no need tobe as well put as it was, so thank you.

I will only add that gloaming are as old as half giants, both were released 7/22/22. And I can agree that having numbers as milestones to see what the sort of consensus about if a race is too much or too little, and if numbers being referenced are bloated by people making and deleting or shelving after a month, but your words and candor are a welcome thing and do provide some relief. Ill leave it to the others to continue, or if numbers are provided I shall continue to lurk

Good to know! I loosely based it on a wiki date I had found and not a release note time as I was too focused on responding. Gloaming could go too one day too! Nothing is gone forever minus Dragons.

[Biolab00]

I've created 4 Half-Giants since it's introduction, probably close to 2 years by now.

The first half giant that i've created, does not have any supporting RP behind. I remember during that time, Jotunhold was in a real bad shape that most half giants are barred from entering and had to camp outside ( I was one of them ) and the classes of each of the half giants are pretty wild. It was the time, as Svrtr mentioned, there's no distinction between Half-Giants and Tall Humans/Dwarves/Elves.
Much has changed but as i've written, I had never been part of Jotunhold Saga because my Half-Giants created are actually Dread Pirates.

The second half giant that i've created is also a pirate, does have his own background story...though none of it ever ties to the Ordning but rather the experimentation of the cowled wizards in Spellhold which does not come to fruition before he was eventually burnt out from both IC and OOC reasons through sailing.

The third half giant that i've created, was actually meant to be part of Jotunhold. In fact, that was my original intention until I am still hooked on sailing and once you dabble in sailing, you often do not have time for much other things. It persist until now...and probably going to be for awhile or a long while.

I'll skip the fourth since it's not yet completed but he's a maug.

I'm writing my own experiences here, simply because to me, Half-Giants are beings that are ostracized by the Giant community because inherently, the Higher in the Ordning looks down on those Lower in the Ordning, much less the Half-Giants that will -never- be accepted among their kind.
Just like Hartkiller, despite being the son of Annam, his size causes disbelief and -all- giants do not actually believe him which is the main cause of his death, failing to become the king of giant kind and unite their races. And similarly, he himself does not look at other lesser races as equal.

So the main point here is, -Size-. Half giants are even smaller than Harkiller and there's zero sense of being accepted in the Ordning.
However, that's simply just myself and how i convince and roleplay my half-giant. It does not stop them from worshipping the Giant deity because we all know, life is full of contradictions.

That is not to say Jotunhold does things bad or what, no that's not what i'm writing here.
What i'm saying is that the interpretation of Half-giants are too far and wide and i'm glad to have a chance to play this race.
I think that the grasp on the Half-Giant identity can be weaker rather than conform it to a certain standard about race diversity and numbers. Moving it out of rotation certainly disappoint plenty of players and I do hope to see them come back during next rotation or if Arelith decides to have certain lore conform to this Race so that it can be played, It is still better than leaving it out of rotation.

[kirisin]

So I let this sit for a bit before answering - I guess I'll bite the bullet and give my response on the matter of Half-Giants.

This is a fantastic response thank you very much Malkaz. it does a little to assuage my fears. Unfortunatly I think that its just the nature of the change causeing the remaining disatisfaction, but more information is helpful.

There are a couple things I might respond to later when I have more time, You asked one or two questions yourself that I'd like to respond too as well but Its important for you to know that this is appreciated.

[Itikar]

I am not interested in playing a half-giant, however I would prefer that overpopulated races be put on application for a while, rather than out of rotation. This way, there can be a bit more flexibility in handling them or regulate their presence. It felt that the giants create nice rp around themselves.

[kirisin]

“I have seen this a couple times in the thread - I am not certain where the focus on archaic or old English came from. Is there some direction that I have missed?”

Regarding Archaic, Old English:
To begin with I believe this is being misrepresented, I don’t think I should have to justify it but here. Not everyone uses it, or people use it to varying degrees, the harshest of which is Grym (The jarl) who at times can become difficult to understand even for me. When things are important to get across, when someone is having difficulty understanding he tends to tone it back, one of us will translate or we will restate in an easier way. Personally, I find that it is hardly any different from the way the Dwarves of Brog use butchered Scottish accent.

Giants are an old race with a living history, very little is written down its far more common than stories, saga, mythos is passed down through oral tradition. I don’t believe it to be a massive leap of logic that HG’s that have grown up around Jotun/Giants are going to talk a little differently than others. Along side the longevity of the races (up too 800 years in stone giants cases) and minimal contact with other races its likely that language has not changed very much.

From a lore basis there are a few sections of Giantcraft that might outline this sort of thing.

“Giants all speak a common tongue known as Jotun, one of the oldest languages still active in the Realms. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that Jotun shares a lingual base with both Thorass and the Common tongue of humanity. It is likely that these later languages were partially derived from older incarnations of the giant tongue.

Giant clerical rites are usually composed in Jotunalder ("old Jotun"), a formalized version of the familiar tongue that has remained unchanged for over 5,000 years. Although few giants can actually speak Jotunalder, the tongue bears enough similarities to modern Jotun to enable most giants to comprehend it.

In addition to Jotun, most breeds speak their own specialized language as well as the common tongue of humanity. These specialized languages are listed and classified below. Of course, giants who operate in the vicinity of a nonhuman civilization are likely to speak at least a smattering of that civilization's language. For instance, most stone giants speak dwarvish and most hill giants speak a little ogre and gnoll.”
Ray Winninger (September 1995). Giantcraft. Edited by Karen S. Boomgarden. (TSR, Inc.), p. 27. ISBN 0-7869-0163-2.

“I pour mead to the All-Father for Hrjurnur, son of Hjurgen, leveler of Ranauroch, son of Ottar, Jarl of the northern wind-teeth, son of grand Annam, All Seeing, All Knowing, All Quelling, All Father Fireheart Mighty reaver of the wyrm's core. Fie who howled at the sun Fie of the quenched heart. He who drowned in the river of swords.”
Ray Winninger (September 1995). Giantcraft. Edited by Karen S. Boomgarden. (TSR, Inc.), p. 8. ISBN 0-7869-0163-2.

It continues to go about the classification of languages, the different types of jotun language as it differs between subtypes and some general roleplaying tips. It’s a good read I’d recommend it.

But this is going to come down to the individual role-player and I hardly think what we have done/are doing is either a monopoly on how people must do it nor is it a significant derivative from lore or narrative. we love seeing variety. We love seeing people do human raised and Jotun raised both and seeing the internal struggle of both, and one of the things that makes us happiest is seeing the various cultural influences people put into their character. Lots of us have drawn from other sources such as Finnish, Persian, Hungarian and Norse for one reason or another in our roleplay.

Some of it will come from the race, other parts will come as a character.

[kirisin]

“A failure on our part is deviating from supported lore and creating Arelithism-esque races and lore that makes it hard for people to follow, requires investment in a lot more research and detracts from enjoyment of the game without the stress of getting it wrong. There have been many examples over the years, and I am not painting Half-Giants in this light only - so please do not take it as that. It is just that its a homebrew without as much lore supporting it as there are other races.”

This becomes a little more difficult I agree with your points. There is a lot of lore supporting giants, and then very little, next to nothing regarding half giants. There is mention of one named Brun in city of splendors (which isn’t helpful), again Giantcraft and then we have of course goliaths from Races of stone.
If nothing else we know they are biologically possible and that they have existed in the past but only by the one name.
So, I suppose the question becomes what the team wants us to be looking at. We’ve been given little direction apart from “Don’t RP as a full Giant.”

Truth be told I’ve never understood the criticism of “you’re too much of a giant”, Do people have the same reaction to half elves for playing as too elven or half orcs for being too orky, why is it leveled differently against half giants. If we become focused on the human half, then there little to go from a roleplaying and writing standpoint.

Perhaps we could benefit from some heavy cooperation from the writing team, work together to set some guidelines, roleplaying tips perhaps some history. Some people have mentioned that its not lore accurate, lets make it lore accurate together.

[Xerah]

Unfortunately this is not our intent - while a schedule would be nice it would have negative effects on racial representation, roleplay and population density. Players have a tendency to prematurely act upon changes that they know are coming - take the Dweomercraft update, we have seen how players have already adjusted knowing OOC'ly the system is changing. This should never have happened. The same thing would happen with races.

I think there is a huge, world of difference here.

The pre-announced dweomercraft update involved personal power that was only allowed to the rich. This would affect gameplay with people going out of their way IC to make sure they can stay 100% optimal under both settings. Totally understandable to take that step on that change.

A change in what is available to use awards on is not the same case at all. It doesn't give anyone an advantage. It does not affect IC actions (you might be able to say it makes people create new characters just to roll, but people do that already). One of the big things it does is allow for less stress about rotated racal factions and it allows less "feels bad" moments when someone uses a big reward only to find out a month later that what they wanted to play is finally there.

Those situations are not really comparable at all.