Metagaming

[Kythana]

Just wanted to through this up after a conversation earlier, but I've run into a few examples of very specific ways someone could metagame. Some of these feel like they're unintentional, but I'm not sure if I would call it a bug.

• In the Spider's Web bar in Andunor, the bartender that you turn in rat tails to will scream at you to get out if you're a good aligned monster.

• In Myon, the quartermaster's racial restriction that can be set to sell to elves only does not include Fey'ri. If you don't know this, you can unintentionally out yourself.

• Moonbeam can be used to metagame racial type because of the increased damage to certain racial types.

• Assassin's death attack shows as that in the combat log, and popup text. If you're trying to conceal that you are an assassin, it's pretty much impossible if you ever want to group.

• Create Harper item will show as this in the combat log, so if you don't know, you can very easily out yourself.

• Noble reactions from npcs happen regardless of disguises, so if you're pretending to be a commoner, you can, again, easily out yourself.

• The playerlist at server selection will show all names on the server, regardless of disguises. If one wanted to, they could narrow in on what character is using what disguise. (This one might be a technical limitation, and impossible to fix.)

• I haven't tested this one personally, but I know that the Cordor jail cell also behaves weirdly with Fey'ri and likely other races.

I'd really like to see some of these fixed, if possible! As someone who really likes the intrigue aspect and disguise system, I hate that there are so many pitfalls to run into through ooc mechanics.

[MarkRed]

• Assassin's death attack shows as that in the combat log, and popup text. If you're trying to conceal that you are an assassin, it's pretty much impossible if you ever want to group.

This is the only one I can directly speak on, but having Rogue levels, or anything with sneak attack, it shows up as "Sneak Attack" instead of "Death Attack", and in my experience most Assassins have Rogue levels.

But otherwise Warlock(And I think Harbinger too) also has alot of these, but most of them simply boil down to unavoidable meta. Like VFXs or overhead names, even if you don't pass any Spellcraft check to see the effect like with a normal Eldritch Blast.

[Ruzuke]

Another way is if I am Tom the spy and I rent a boat or purchase a House everyone will know I am really Bob and not Tom. ICly just like signing up for writs and the contract I would ICly use a pen name.

[Spriggan Bride]

• Assassin's death attack shows as that in the combat log, and popup text. If you're trying to conceal that you are an assassin, it's pretty much impossible if you ever want to group.

This is the only one I can directly speak on, but having Rogue levels, or anything with sneak attack, it shows up as "Sneak Attack" instead of "Death Attack", and in my experience most Assassins have Rogue levels.

But otherwise Warlock(And I think Harbinger too) also has alot of these, but most of them simply boil down to unavoidable meta. Like VFXs or overhead names, even if you don't pass any Spellcraft check to see the effect like with a normal Eldritch Blast.

Swashbuckler/Fighter/Assassin is a common build and there are dirgemaster/bard/assassins and other builds. I'd really like to see death attack disguised because I had a surface assassin without rogue levels and I could never group up with anyone. Couldn't even fight off animals on the road in case someone was watching! I think it was even in the works at one point and it was (still is for all I know) disguised on the PGCC.

[solar separation]

• Assassin's death attack shows as that in the combat log, and popup text. If you're trying to conceal that you are an assassin, it's pretty much impossible if you ever want to group.

This is the only one I can directly speak on, but having Rogue levels, or anything with sneak attack, it shows up as "Sneak Attack" instead of "Death Attack", and in my experience most Assassins have Rogue levels.

This is not the case, even if it was the fact it's appearing at all would mean it's still an issue.
The only one of these issues listed that I think is mostly a non-issue is the Moonbeam one, as well as the jail cell - as I believe that's the TTT esq one that's meant to do that. I may be wrong, please correct me if so.

[DM Starfish]

Could be wrong but I think there is some code in place to mask death attacks in some form. Would have to be tested from more than your own point of view.

[Amateur Hour]

Another way is if I am Tom the spy and I rent a boat or purchase a House everyone will know I am really Bob and not Tom. ICly just like signing up for writs and the contract I would ICly use a pen name.

This has been repeatedly said to be very intentional.

[Spriggan Bride]

Could be wrong but I think there is some code in place to mask death attacks in some form. Would have to be tested from more than your own point of view.

I had asked other players in tells if they could see it and they confirmed it said death attack, not sneak attack. This is 2020 or 2021 though I may have missed an update since. Talking about the live server of course not the PGCC.

I was definitely under the impression at the time that hiding the death attack message was being considered or worked on, but digging through forums to find why that was seems not worth the effort.

[perseid]

I realize that there has to be some room for conversation but I feel like this should have been a PM to the Contributor channel considering that some of it was less commonly known and now is much more commonly known.

[solar separation]

Considering it was being discussed in the main discord earlier I don't think this is anymore damaging really.

[Itikar]

One that always bothered me was that hand spinnerets, despite being a racial weapon, are alignment locked. Thus, as they are super common and have insanely high umd DCs, they often out non-evil drow. It would really be nice if the restriction would be updated to be for drow, and not evil elves.

[Kythana]

I realize that there has to be some room for conversation but I feel like this should have been a PM to the Contributor channel considering that some of it was less commonly known and now is much more commonly known.

This stuff should be commonly known. The fact that it isn't makes it far easier to unintentionally screw yourself, when you didn't even know that you could.

[perseid]

I realize that there has to be some room for conversation but I feel like this should have been a PM to the Contributor channel considering that some of it was less commonly known and now is much more commonly known.

This stuff should be commonly known. The fact that it isn't makes it far easier to unintentionally screw yourself, when you didn't even know that you could.

I mean some of it sure. But things like the player list one there isn't really a defense for anyway so having it included in a public feedback thread doesn't really do anything besides advertise how to execute it and would have been better as private feedback is all I was getting at. But it doesn't exactly matter now.

[xanrael]

I realize that there has to be some room for conversation but I feel like this should have been a PM to the Contributor channel considering that some of it was less commonly known and now is much more commonly known.

This stuff should be commonly known. The fact that it isn't makes it far easier to unintentionally screw yourself, when you didn't even know that you could.

I mean some of it sure. But things like the player list one there isn't really a defense for anyway so having it included in a public feedback thread doesn't really do anything besides advertise how to execute it and would have been better as private feedback is all I was getting at. But it doesn't exactly matter now.

Even with that, you can use the knowledge to partially mitigate it. Hosting a meeting while disguised in Guldorand during off-peak hours would make metagaming your identity through the player list trivial versus a more populated server/time.

I'd rather stuff like this be known to everyone as bad actors will figure it out in their own time and I think people are best served understanding where they're vulnerable even if they can't directly counteract it.

[perseid]

This stuff should be commonly known. The fact that it isn't makes it far easier to unintentionally screw yourself, when you didn't even know that you could.

I mean some of it sure. But things like the player list one there isn't really a defense for anyway so having it included in a public feedback thread doesn't really do anything besides advertise how to execute it and would have been better as private feedback is all I was getting at. But it doesn't exactly matter now.

Even with that, you can use the knowledge to partially mitigate it. Hosting a meeting while disguised in Guldorand during off-peak hours would make metagaming your identity through the player list trivial versus a more populated server/time.

I'd rather stuff like this be known to everyone as bad actors will figure it out in their own time and I think people are best served understanding where they're vulnerable even if they can't directly counteract it.

Population doesn't really matter as far as how easy it is because of the custom systems on the server but I've also said my part. Like I said it's out there now either way.

[xanrael]

Eh, unless you're talking about something different matching 1 person out of 1 disguised person is easier than 1 person out of 10 disguised people.

As far as technical solutions, it looks like someone on the beamdog forums suggested a solution with a custom menu for that screen that could be added to the HAK. I'll play around with it a bit this week(end) and see if I can make it work. If so, then I'll PM one of the contributors the code.

[vaclavc]

I am not sure if this is intentional or not: winged characters are immune to caltrops, and it doesn't matter if they have their wings out or not. So if you throw some caltrops under the feet of a PC and they are immune to damage, it is an indication that they have Winged character feat.

-V-

[MRFTW]

There's also the person in the corner of Nexus Falls that literally says the class of whoever they are talking to, as well.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Another way is if I am Tom the spy and I rent a boat or purchase a House everyone will know I am really Bob and not Tom. ICly just like signing up for writs and the contract I would ICly use a pen name.

Best way to handle this is to make your character sheet name your public legal name.

For renting boat this seems like an unfortunate 'not main focus of the feature' situation. But for normal property owning, the idea is your publicly known name should be your character name. Then you use disguises for your secret identities. Kind of like how Bruce is batman disguising as a rich billionaire. But you still end up going 'disguise batman' and then Bruce as your public name.

I think the rental ship situation is awkward though.

[Ruzuke]

Another way is if I am Tom the spy and I rent a boat or purchase a House everyone will know I am really Bob and not Tom. ICly just like signing up for writs and the contract I would ICly use a pen name.

Best way to handle this is to make your character sheet name your public legal name.

For renting boat this seems like an unfortunate 'not main focus of the feature' situation. But for normal property owning, the idea is your publicly known name should be your character name. Then you use disguises for your secret identities. Kind of like how Bruce is batman disguising as a rich billionaire. But you still end up going 'disguise batman' and then Bruce as your public name.

I think the rental ship situation is awkward though.

For some merits the text is you literally create a new identity as a spy would. Sam Spade going undercover to find out who is trying to steal the McGuffin is not renting the hotel under the name Sam Spade. The Paladin in the Radiant Heart who goes undercover likewise isn't giving his name at the local inn when he rents out a room.