Arelith

Spell components are a lame mechanic. To wiz/sorc, they are just an existence tax on an already under-performing class. They make sense for spellsword, as they need a tax, but wiz/sor they are quite painful. It's not uncommon to have to check an entire city to find a single shop that sells them.
-add eschew materials as available feat for characters with 16+ sorc/wiz/invoker level
-increase number of components gained on rest for sorc/wiz/invoker
-add NPCs that sell spell components (1000 gold each whereas player market sells them for around 6-7 hundred)
-reduce crafting points necessary to create them
-add "enchanted spell component pouch" which can store 108 charges instead of 54
-increase spell component frequency in loot matrix (ive seen them maybe once)
-add recipe to include greenstone and malachite dust in lieu of their whole counterparts

This is more a suggestion than feedback. Please make sure to keep messages in this forum to giving feedback instead of asking for changes or new things.

There are a lot of suppliers of spell components on both surface and UD, you'll need to look around a little bit! Spell components are only needed for higher level spells, you could potentially adjust your plans accordingly.

Quizmar wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:50 am

It's not uncommon to have to check an entire city to find a single shop that sells them.

I cut this out because the rest of what you are saying revolves around whether or not spell components should be a thing, which is a debate I don't really care about. But this sentence here is an economic thing, and therefore does strike my interest.

Spell components will always have an ebb and flow in stores as is, because one, it's an 18 DC item in a popular splashed craft. Add in 100% piety god saves, and really, I don't need more than 1 point in art or 1 point in alchemy and the patience to always ensure I have 100% piety. Meaning I don't even have to eschew the top end stuff from my main craft to make them for myself, even if it takes me forever.

That in turn leads to part two, which once again ties into how popular splashing alchemy and art crafting can be. I suspect well over 50% of the active characters can actually make spell components, but I don't have the numbers to back that up as a fact. That means that when they are in shops, it's a highly competitive buyers' market since those that need them that can't also make them are few and far between. I don't know if the prices the peddler pays for them have been adjusted, as I remember this coming up back a while ago, but assuming they haven't you can still get an appraise monkey to sell them for more than you can to pcs.

All of this adds up to people giving up on stocking spell components a lot of the time, when really it should be pretty common. But the good news is, awareness of the plight of the 0 alchemy 0 art wizards and sorcerers may increase the stock some, as long as people are willing to be patient with it in their store.

People don't sell spell components because characters with high appraise buy them to sell to NPC's for minor profit. If you sell them above the rate an appraiser can vendor them at then no one wants to pay your prices because they're too high. The issue entirely comes down to the sell value inherent with the items.

I think something similar to the invoker eschew components could work for wiz and sorc myself.

Or even a slightly lessened one where they require 1 less spell component at level 21 (epic caster) and 1 less at level 28 so they still require at least 1 component for their level 9 spells and a minimum of 3 for epic spells.

It could be seen as a wizard/sorc having learned how to efficiently utilize a component for their spells.

I always disliked spell component system as a needless and extremely annoying chore, and a cost that is often forgotten about for some reason.

It's an arcanist version of a melee's gear repair.
Now, why even these mechanics that serve no other purpose than to lower QoL are even a thing would probably deserve a topic of its own, but at least this way it's fair(ish).

"QoL" is slung around a fair bit when it comes to things like these, but we need to look at it from lens of intent as this superceeds any QoL people like to see as being undermined.

For example:

• They exist to limit spam casting of top tier spells, this applies to both crafting and in PvE.
• They exist to promote interplayer cooperation with crafting, even if you're doing the 1 point god save it's still better time wise to find help or buy them at a reduced rate.
• It is a cost that barely touches most casters now thanks to the rest restore of some components.
• Piety is the equivalent for divine casters, which cannot be easily replenished without carrying an altar everywhere.

All this put together makes it a tool to restrict and promote certain behaviours on the server.

As for the fact people are appraise selling them, I'll take a look at lowering the base value to something less extreme, this should stop it being quite so prevelant.
I also remember the days of 500gp spell components in stores.

Sincra wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:51 pm

For example:

• They exist to limit spam casting of top tier spells, this applies to both crafting and in PvE.
• They exist to promote interplayer cooperation with crafting, even if you're doing the 1 point god save it's still better time wise to find help or buy them at a reduced rate.
• It is a cost that barely touches most casters now thanks to the rest restore of some components.
• Piety is the equivalent for divine casters, which cannot be easily replenished without carrying an altar everywhere.

All this put together makes it a tool to restrict and promote certain behaviours on the server.

• They do not apply to Warlocks and furthermore Invokers have their cost considerably reduced and completely removed if they go pure. And those are arguably those who'd spam the most high level spells.

• Piety is not a good comparison. Piety can be replenished extremely fast with the right aspects (particularly War and Destruction is pretty egregious). And you can additionally pay for piety - for 100 gold per point of piety. Which amounts to 300 gold for a 9th circle spell. I'd consider a realistic price for spell components to be about 700-800. Let's go with 700. Which would mean 420 gold for a 9th circle spell.
  However, in between server ticks and aspects piety replenishes a lot faster than components through rest. Piety cost is pretty much a nonissue.

• The cost increases if you rest during dungeon runs or take the time to RP and take consequently longer. "Hurry up, lads! Wards are burning and time is literally money!"

On some level I do like the concept of the spell components, especially special components for rituals. But in practice I've found it to be tedious and bringing little to my experience beyond the annoyance of having to collect materials and process them when a Cleric just has to pray at an altar. If/when Wizards and Sorcerers are brought up to par with other classes then I can make sense of them, but where it stands now I find it hard to justify them.

You do however make a couple of them every time you rest, which I think is really cool, and with the addition of an unhealthy drinking habit you can coast by for a good long while using mostly level 6 and lower spells.

Subtext wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:09 pm

Sincra wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:51 pm

For example:

• They exist to limit spam casting of top tier spells, this applies to both crafting and in PvE.
• They exist to promote interplayer cooperation with crafting, even if you're doing the 1 point god save it's still better time wise to find help or buy them at a reduced rate.
• It is a cost that barely touches most casters now thanks to the rest restore of some components.
• Piety is the equivalent for divine casters, which cannot be easily replenished without carrying an altar everywhere.

All this put together makes it a tool to restrict and promote certain behaviours on the server.

• They do not apply to Warlocks and furthermore Invokers have their cost considerably reduced and completely removed if they go pure. And those are arguably those who'd spam the most high level spells.

• Piety is not a good comparison. Piety can be replenished extremely fast with the right aspects (particularly War and Destruction is pretty egregious). And you can additionally pay for piety - for 100 gold per point of piety. Which amounts to 300 gold for a 9th circle spell. I'd consider a realistic price for spell components to be about 700-800. Let's go with 700. Which would mean 420 gold for a 9th circle spell.
  However, in between server ticks and aspects piety replenishes a lot faster than components through rest. Piety cost is pretty much a nonissue.

• The cost increases if you rest during dungeon runs or take the time to RP and take consequently longer. "Hurry up, lads! Wards are burning and time is literally money!"

Warlocks and Invokers are beyond my remit.
Warlocks probably should for 7 and 8.
Invokers actually do use them until they get the full eschew.

Components can easily be carried in bulk and pouches replenished without having to do any of these things, so while you may consider it an invalid comparison, I actually see it as a similar resource for design purposes with different replenishment approaches.
I understand the cost breakdown as you've written it, even if way above value, which is also why I said I'm going to be looking at lowering appraise value which is why most are priced at 600-650 gold each.
The actual breakdown ends up alot closer than what you're thinking, and as someone who plays mages that need components the 500-650 range is more correct than not.
So a 9th circle is 300-390 which is virtually on par to Piety, again, as you wrote it.

Wards fading as a cost is a fair shout but is also generally why the best mages keep their costly but shorter duration wards till they're at the place which needs it.
Dungeon design making this hard (Deep wells) is the obvious exception.

Spell components are an artifact of a system designed to provide nuance and depth to a fantasy world. Things like resting, piety, food, water and so on can all be "streamlined" out to make the game less of a pain to play, but is it something we should do?

The idea is if you want to play xyz class, you're going to have to go do this tedious thing to be able to use your power. Is it perfect? Far from it. Is it better than just everyone is resourceless because the resources are a pain? I don't think so (even as someone who hates making components).

I wouldn't be opposed to a higher regen rate on rest, or ability to save them as a wizard or something. I do like their use and requirement for rituals and would love to see an expansion of the ritual system.

I get the need to limit top tier spells but... Not all top tier spells are top tier. I think there could be a variable component cost so the time stops and mords cost a fortune but the offensive spells (which are at best a crapshoot when DCs are involved) were cheap or even free.

Quizmar

A suggestion if you'll take it.
Drink alcohol regularly to bring down your rest meter and rest to regain free spell components more regularly/frequently.

Also, carry a second component pouch to double your component capacity that you can bank from the free spell components.
I also keep a handful of spell components outside the pouch in inventory to use in a pinch.

Also, if you regularly buff yourself with premonition or greater mage armor, put that on a sequencer staff instead, it will drop down your daily tax by not using spell components.

Good luck!

Spell components come from crafts that allow you to not bust your spine as a wizard. Even if they might seem like a legacy system, such small things make you engage with other elements more actively. Besides, getting enough in a skill to craft components also nets you additional sources of income, such as cutting common gems. Raw gems add up over time. Or go a bit deeper into alchemy and split it with herbalism, but I digress.

The wheel isn't broken, there is no need to fix it. And classes that would suffer otherwise have means of negating it.

Hi

I have started to play alchemist a few months ago. I have massive experience in trading within this game.

Where I'm at now, as a player, economically speaking, I see making spell components as charity toward fellow players who need them ... Why?

8 craft points per components. In my book the reference is 100 coins per cp to know where you stand ... And we are speaking of DC 19. In alchemy, some things are really high above this rate. Components are one of the few items that are under this rate (yes, 700 is reasonable and sells, above? I'd say rarely).
Let's make it even more clear: you'll get more coin selling sand, coal, greestones and malachites cut or uncut and then using your points on even many DC 3 max things where your skill would be 1 to sell at a peddler. Than selling components with alchemy skill of 55. Even to a peddler with max appraise I won't make components to gain coin. Not only the rate is low but on top materials are heavy and tedious

Want to fix?

Design what price you consider reasonable per component, cap selling in peddlers at (this rate) -100gp, and adjust cps so that (this rate -material value [which I'd say is 200])/cp is >100.

Or don't, I really just give insight as seller, I don't need or use spell components, and would probably make sure i'm able to make them if I made a wiz/sorc.

Anomandaris wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:45 pm

Spell components are an artifact of a system designed to provide nuance and depth to a fantasy world. Things like resting, piety, food, water and so on can all be "streamlined" out to make the game less of a pain to play, but is it something we should do?

Yes.

These systems only make sense when the rest of the game supports them. Food, water, resting are all now a non-issue thanks to consumable bloat with coffee, chocolate, sustenance pots and so on. They really don't have any added value because there's little meaningful way they affect gameplay beyond forced tedium. Have you ever seen someone actually worry about food in character? Water? It's just an afterthought. The only meaningful contribution rest has given ICly is the universal truth of all casters being alcoholics.

I don't really care one way or the other, but spell components really do feel like just a tax you need to pay. Buy your stuff, carry a bag, and don't think about it. Maybe if there was actually any danger of someone running out of components, this would be a problem. But at 1x1 inventory space for 100 components, anyone who wants to go forever, effectively can.

I wish eschew components was an epic feat wizards and sorcs could take if they wished. I have the feeling most wouldn't because it's pure QoL and they'd rather have another epic spell focus or offensive feat anyway but still nice to have the option.

My only issue with spell components is a pouch being consumed when out of spell components, when you have 3 other full pouches that could've been used instead.

When consuming spell components from a pouch, it would be cool to first check if there are enough charges in that pouch for it to not be destroyed. If there isnt, then check if there are other pouches with more components, and consume it from them instead.

wulfburk wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:36 pm

My only issue with spell components is a pouch being consumed when out of spell components, when you have 3 other full pouches that could've been used instead.

When consuming spell components from a pouch, it would be cool to first check if there are enough charges in that pouch for it to not be destroyed. If there isnt, then check if there are other pouches with more components, and consume it from them instead.

That option has been available for a few months now I believe. Look into the Settings of your Rest Menu, under Containers. It will keep the Pouch from getting destroyed when it doesn't have enough Charges, though the Spell will fail and the Slot be lost, so beware.

I believe that the Issue here isn't about destroying Spell Component pouch when it's running low but specifically about having more than 1 Spell Component Pouch which does not register.

This is because once your Pouch reaches 1 or 2 charges and you decide to cast a Tier 9 spell which cost 3 Components and subsequently, all Tier 7 to 9 spell failed because it does not register your 2nd, 3rd or 4th Spell component pouches despite having 50 charges.

From the code, if you are not using the Don't Destroy setting, it should go through all your spell components pouches.
Otherwise it will only check the First (by position in your inventory).

Or just keep an Eye on the Charges .. 54 Charges cannot be expended by a single full Spellbook. Don't see the point of keeping more than one on hand, all it does is take away Inventory space. Just refill the Pouches after cast intensive encounters/PvP and that problem should never occur.