Ele Avatar Live Release Feedback Thread

[Svrtr]

After months of bug testing and balancing and work, its finally time.
Before anything else I will post the stats and requirements and restrictions of elemental avatar once more:
ELEMENTAL AVATAR

Epic transmutation spell

Requirements:

• 24 Spellcraft
• Epic divine caster (21 levels of cleric; druid; favored soul; shaman)
• Ability to cast 9th level spells

Upon taking this spell, you unlock a toggled stance known as elemental avatar. This stance when activated grants a number of bonuses based on your elemental streamwhile active as well as a number of maluses and restrictions:

RESTRICTIONS

• This stance cannot be used while polymorphed
• Activating divine might or shield while elemental avatar is active will deactivate it and vice versa
• This stance, being one of the stances, cannot be used alongside with earthkin defender's defensive stance, as only one stance may be active at a time
• Levels in monk will set the AC bonus from elemental avatar equal to 0 (due to balance concerns). Note, if monk AC is migrated to be shield AC in the future, this will be disabled as the AC will not stack anyways then.

MALUSES

• While active, all your own summons are dismissed and you are unable to summon any creatures
• While active, you receive a -30 penalty to hide and move silently (reduced to -15 on the water stream)
• While active, you will have 0.1% piety drained per round (1% per turn/minute)
• Upon leaving stance, there will be a 12 second cooldown before you may reactivate it

BONUSES

FIRE:

• d6+3 fire damage
• 3d6 fire damage aura in a large radius (5m)
• 2 regeneration
• 4 damage resistance
• 3 shield AC

WATER:

• d2+1 cold damage
• 3d3 cold damage aura in a huge radius (6.67m)
• 6 regeneration which is also applied to allies in your aura
• 4 damage resistance
• 3 shield AC

EARTH:

• d4+2 acid damage
• 3d4 acid damage aura in a large radius (5m)
• 4 regeneration
• 6 damage resistance
• 1 shield AC

AIR:

• d4+2 electric damage
• 3d4 electric damage aura in a large radius (5m)
• 4 regeneration
• 2 damage resistance
• 5 shield AC

With that said, a few notes:

1) Due to how properties are coded on weapons, the damage dice portion of the damage (d2/d4/d6) above will not work on ranged weapons. However, the added portion (+1/+2/+3) WILL work on ranged weapons, as it is true damage

2) There is currently no way in which transmutation spell foci scale the stance. This is not to say that there will never be a way, but the ideas are ones being discussed. For now my focus is to let this be live, make sure its balanced and not too strong (I would rather it be too weak and buffed than too strong and nerfed), and once I am happy with it I intend to add something, perhaps some elemental DI based on your tier of foci or some such

3) The VFX concern is noted and new VFX are being worked on by another dev. They will be updated and released at a later date in the hopefully near future.

With all this said, I only ask people:

1) Be respectful below

2) If mentioning concerns about numbers, please provide numbers, be they too weak or too strong or both as having mathematical references makes it easier to justify changes

3) Understand that the topic of elementalist has been discussed at length as well as arcane casters as a whole. It is not something entirely out of the question, but there are a number of concerns about the matter, largely EMA, and undispellable buff like ele avatar which would negate any reason to shoot for autostill and a greensteel shield, etc etc. I will only ask that such conversatons about arcane casters and ele avatar be kept to a minimum, at least for a while so live feedback about the spell can be focused on. I say this with respect as I understand new stuff is cool and it sucks to not get it, but part of the purpose of this spell was to serve as a divine counterpart to EMA which is arcane only and so its stats have been balanced accordingly.

4) The VFX intensity is known about and is being worked on, another dev is being a huge help and designing new vfx. The plan is to make the vfx more subtle and add an eye glow component

As always I will attempt to closely follow and read feedback and respond accordingly as time is permitting.

Praise the sun you glorious divine bastards, your patient vigil has come to an end

Finally, because it amuses me and I promised I would, for transparency I intend to not take the feat myself on my main character for a month following release, so feel free to watch as I die waiting to take it myself to have fun with: https://a.chronus.eu/1B4647C

[Shadowy Reality]

A few things.

The description of the feat is wrong. It lists 30 Spellcraft as requirement, this is not true.
https://imgur.com/a/urerqJS

Entering the stance consumes 5% Piety.
On top of that, the Piety is not consumed every round, in fact Piety goes up when you leave the stance.
https://imgur.com/a/75Qf6Mm

Edit: I realize now maybe this should have gone into bugs, but here we are.

[Svrtr]

A few things.

The description of the feat is wrong. It lists 30 Spellcraft as requirement, this is not true.
https://imgur.com/a/urerqJS

Entering the stance consumes 5% Piety.
On top of that, the Piety is not consumed every round, in fact Piety goes up when you leave the stance.
https://imgur.com/a/75Qf6Mm

Cheers. It looks like an old mistaken description replaced the correct updated one. Likewise it seems that a negative sign was lost in transit, I've submitted a bug fix for both these things (curse the PGCC not having piety drain so I couldn't test it ! )

Edit: A bug fix has been submitted for both the incorrect description (it turns out the old one was duplicated in the code so got rid of the duplicate) and the incorrect piety drain fixed as well. Should hopefully both be fixed soon

[Kalthariam]

Can Confirm that there is no piety drain on Elemental Avatar right now.

[ReverentBlade]

I don't seem to be getting AC or damage dice on unarmed attacks. Build is 27 defiler 3 monk. Does the AC not work with monk builds?

[Naghast]

I have a vague memory of ele avatar's ac not applying if monk levels are present for balance reasons but i'm not sure if my memory is correct here

[Svrtr]

I don't seem to be getting AC or damage dice on unarmed attacks. Build is 27 defiler 3 monk. Does the AC not work with monk builds?

Yes, I had forgotten to list it but monk levels set the ac to 0 for balance reasons. If when new monk comes out and if their ac bonus is changed to shield ac? This exception will be removed as they won't stack anyways

I'll take a look at unarmed not getting the damage as I thought I checked that out before

[ReverentBlade]

Unfortunate. I'm not sure going from 52 AC to 55 would have been particularly overpowered, but it certainly makes Conduit still the superior choice. I tried swapping them out and doing a familiar dungeon and had to abandon the run before the boss because it was plainly worse.

End game PvE mostly ignores the elemental damage and the regen and DR didn't remotely come close to offsetting the lack of summons.

Granted, the character is meant to cast spells and their unarmed fighting is not the build's primary focus, but it would have been nice to have the water bender fantasy as an alternative to standing behind summons.

Might keep it anyway because Vampiric Feast is still worse.

[Svrtr]

Unfortunate. I'm not sure going from 52 AC to 55 would have been particularly overpowered, but it certainly makes Conduit still the superior choice. I tried swapping them out and doing a familiar dungeon and had to abandon the run before the boss because it was plainly worse.

End game PvE mostly ignores the elemental damage and the regen and DR didn't remotely come close to offsetting the lack of summons.

Granted, the character is meant to cast spells and their unarmed fighting is not the build's primary focus, but it would have been nice to have the water bender fantasy as an alternative to standing behind summons.

Might keep it anyway because Vampiric Feast is still worse.

In truth, I had mentioned it before in other discussions but I had said before that it is likely planar conduit and mummy dust will remain the superior solo PvE option by sheer virtue of extra bodies and action economy. That was and is fine by me.

The goal was never to outright replace planar conduit or mummy dust, as doing so would have required values of stats that would have made elemental avatar oppressively strong in making a player unkillable. The goal was to provide an alternative, one that allows for more comfort and for an option to go for that doesn't make the caster just a guard for their summons. In truth, this feat will be a better boon in group PvE, as it will allow for a stronger caster (albeit one who is in melee such as battle cleric often) who doesn't rely on summons, thus meaning that there are fewer summons clogging up a dungeon while also providing a way for the caster to draw aggro with their damage aura or provide a boon to allies with regeneration.

I have before and still do mull over an idea to make a version of this more caster oriented, perhaps a feat "Elemental conduit" or some such that replaces the bonus damage from fire with damage vulnerability to a particular element, or provides a refund % chance of spells of that element. I can't say. Similarly, I still intend to decide a way that this feat scales with transmutation foci, but am yet trying to decide and in part hope for feedback to help decide on one.

To provide some clarity, my current thoughts are one of a couple things.

• Scaling elemental DI based on stream and tier of foci, something such as

SF Trans: 5% elemental DI to your stream, 0% to tangent streams, 0% to opposed (So earth as your stream would be 5% acid, fire and water are tangent to earth and are 0%, air is opposed and is 0%)

GSF Trans: 10% to your stream, 5% to tangent, 0% to opposed

ESF Trans: 20% to your stream, 10% to tangent, 0% to opposed

• The aura size increases with GSF or ESF trans (I don't intend to do more than one aura size increase if I do any aura size increase at all for risk of it being far too large, both for the risk of VFX overload and just problems with too many active at once hitting too many enemies)

• Priorly mentioned aura passives based on streams that scale. This one I still want to do and it would provide a good way to make this better for casters offensively, but before that I still want to let the initial live release of elemental avatar settle and sort bugs and performance.

I don't see elemental avatar as yet fully realized, but I think its base core is solid and I only see it going up from here. It is generally better to release things "too weak" and buff them than the opposite, and so pending feedback and testing Ill decide which of the three above will be the route to go with. I still don't think EA will ever replace planar conduit or mummy dust in solo PvE, but it was never intended to and was intended instead to be something better for group PvE and a non-summon alternative

[Morto]

It feels flashy and thematic and fun.
I don't know what numbers mean!

[Preserver]

It's cool.
I like to click a button and go FZOOOWSHHHH and see little lightnings or whatever around me.
100% would choose rather than wasting time on ugly frogs or nerdy ants.

[Yvesza]

I'm really enjoying the feat right now but the one area it feels like it falls down is the aura, the tick damage is nice but it's neither here nor there. If any aspect of the feat needed to be squinted at I'd probably suggest starting there.

Adding some extra damage per transmutation foci would go a ways towards making it more appealing. Otherwise the effects are pretty great even if I think the VFX is just a bit much right now.

[Svrtr]

I'm really enjoying the feat right now but the one area it feels like it falls down is the aura, the tick damage is nice but it's neither here nor there. If any aspect of the feat needed to be squinted at I'd probably suggest starting there.

Adding some extra damage per transmutation foci would go a ways towards making it more appealing. Otherwise the effects are pretty great even if I think the VFX is just a bit much right now.

After this post and further consideration I've come to agree with the general notion, if in part as I want to keep the relative transmutation foci scaling of the mechanics relatively simple given the density of the spell as is.

With this in mind, pending internal balance discussion and people's feedback, I am currently deciding between one of the three.

1) Just elemental DI, with ESF transmutation giving 20% DI vs stream, 10% vs tangential streams, 0% vs opposed stream

2) +2 damage per aura tick per foci, capping at +6 damage per aura tick with ESF transmutation

3) A mix of the above, likely with halved values. AKA 10% DI vs stream, 5% tangential, 0% opposed as well as +1 damage per foci tier capping at +3 damage

A final fourth consideration I've had in mind that is a potential for casters would still be a size increase to the aura with ESF transmutation and an elemental vulnerability debuff on enemies hit by the aura, or perhaps even tying these to something like ESF evocation, but I generally dislike the idea of having multiple foci have multiple effects on the same epic spell.

Pending internal discussion and feedback, I will elaborate what the plan will be going forward once it is decided upon

[ReverentBlade]

Elemental DI is a bit of a weird choice. If you are choosing Fire stance to protect yourself from Fire, all the fire-type mobs you are presumably fighting are likewise going to be ignoring your fire damage in turn. It would need to be fairly sizable percent to really factor into any decision-making.

[Svrtr]

Elemental DI is a bit of a weird choice. If you are choosing Fire stance to protect yourself from Fire, all the fire-type mobs you are presumably fighting are likewise going to be ignoring your fire damage in turn. It would need to be fairly sizable percent to really factor into any decision-making.

There certainly is a factor of this. For cold and fire I can understand the reverse logic holding, albeit I admittedly cannot shake a somewhat "Gross" feeling when I imagine it for air and earth, albeit this might just be me.

There will still need to be internal discussions, but one other idea I am amenable to is just a flat scaling DI bonus for all 4 elements, which would too in part make it a bit simpler to code (not terribly difficult either way albeit). Something simple but flat like a simple 5%-10%-15% DI for SF/GSF/ESF for the 4 elements

But before such decisions I would still want more feedback player side about the options listed above, of just damage, just DI, a mix, larger aura size, etc. Likewise I appreciate the feedback and concern

[Ruzuke]

Elemental DI is a bit of a weird choice. If you are choosing Fire stance to protect yourself from Fire, all the fire-type mobs you are presumably fighting are likewise going to be ignoring your fire damage in turn. It would need to be fairly sizable percent to really factor into any decision-making.

There certainly is a factor of this. For cold and fire I can understand the reverse logic holding, albeit I admittedly cannot shake a somewhat "Gross" feeling when I imagine it for air and earth, albeit this might just be me.

There will still need to be internal discussions, but one other idea I am amenable to is just a flat scaling DI bonus for all 4 elements, which would too in part make it a bit simpler to code (not terribly difficult either way albeit). Something simple but flat like a simple 5%-10%-15% DI for SF/GSF/ESF for the 4 elements

But before such decisions I would still want more feedback player side about the options listed above, of just damage, just DI, a mix, larger aura size, etc. Likewise I appreciate the feedback and concern

I would ask you do not add an extra feat tax requiring spending 3 or four feats for this ability. It was stated this is not as good as Planar Conduit and that is the cost of one feat. For the cost of 3-4 feats players having an ability that is still not as good as Plannar Conduit makes it not worth while. Then you add in becomes punishing for someone not wanting to summon.

My bow seeker cleric already cannot use most of the cleric epic feats: Planar Conduit (out), Dragon Knight (out), Mummy's Dust (out). It is not as good as Planar Conduit, but at least he has something besides being able to Hellball his party.

[Svrtr]

Elemental DI is a bit of a weird choice. If you are choosing Fire stance to protect yourself from Fire, all the fire-type mobs you are presumably fighting are likewise going to be ignoring your fire damage in turn. It would need to be fairly sizable percent to really factor into any decision-making.

There certainly is a factor of this. For cold and fire I can understand the reverse logic holding, albeit I admittedly cannot shake a somewhat "Gross" feeling when I imagine it for air and earth, albeit this might just be me.

There will still need to be internal discussions, but one other idea I am amenable to is just a flat scaling DI bonus for all 4 elements, which would too in part make it a bit simpler to code (not terribly difficult either way albeit). Something simple but flat like a simple 5%-10%-15% DI for SF/GSF/ESF for the 4 elements

But before such decisions I would still want more feedback player side about the options listed above, of just damage, just DI, a mix, larger aura size, etc. Likewise I appreciate the feedback and concern

I would ask you do not add an extra feat tax requiring spending 3 or four feats for this ability. It was stated this is not as good as Planar Conduit and that is the cost of one feat. For the cost of 3-4 feats players having an ability that is still not as good as Plannar Conduit makes it not worth while. Then you add in becomes punishing for someone not wanting to summon.

My bow seeker cleric already cannot use most of the cleric epic feats: Planar Conduit (out), Dragon Knight (out), Mummy's Dust (out). It is not as good as Planar Conduit, but at least he has something besides being able to Hellball his party.

I understand the concern, but this is the opposite of my goal.

My goal is to leave the base functionality of stats, damage, etc untouched, but to add a small scaling bonus for those who have transmutation. In the same way planar conduit and mummy dust don't require ESF conjuration or necro but do benefit from it, I hope to add a small scaling bonus for those who have transmutation but without making it required. To reward those who have transmutation, but not to punish those who do not, ie it is something entirely optional and not required to make the feat work.

The core values will remain unchanged, IE the AC, DR, regen, bonus damage, etc, and the aura damage will remain the 3d2/3d4/3d6 as is, but I am considering a small bonus to the damage and aura as shown below. I do not intend to make transmutation foci increase the weapon damage, AC, regen, nor DR as this would truly lead to balancing nightmares and too large a disparity between those who do and do not have the foci

My current inclination is something like

SF Transmutation: +1 aura damage and 5% DI vs fire/cold/electric/acid (aura damage being 3d2+1/3d4+1/3d6+1)

GSF Trans: INcreases to +2 and 10%

ESF trans: Increases to +3 and 15% (so 3d2+3/3d4+3/3d6+3)

But I yet welcome feedback as ever. I doubt this feat can ever truly match the solo potential of planar conduit nor mummy dust by its design still, but if there are concerns about it being too weak I always welcome feedback and numbers on the base feat itself too, cheers

[Yvesza]

Improving the aura with some elemental DI and a bit more tick damage would help, it'd mostly be out of reach of the classes that benefit most already but help out the classes that need it most.

I like the idea so far! 15% Elemental DI and +3 damage/tick improves the solo experience, especially for runics. I wouldn't do too much more than that though, unless it was to make the elemental DI party wide with the ESF or something. A bit of party support would be a nice niche.

[Kythana]

My current inclination is something like

SF Transmutation: +1 aura damage and 5% DI vs fire/cold/electric/acid (aura damage being 3d2+1/3d4+1/3d6+1)

GSF Trans: INcreases to +2 and 10%

ESF trans: Increases to +3 and 15% (so 3d2+3/3d4+3/3d6+3)

Initial thoughts are that this seems like a boon to shaman, which already wants to take trans. And shaman feels like the weaker option for EA anyways, so would be a nice little bonus. An extra little option to synergize with trans spec seems neat to me, and the numbers don't look too crazy.

Only thing that comes to mind is interactions with FVS energy resists, and I'm not too sure what all this would look stacked up together.

[kirisin]

So... played with the live version of it vs PVE content I'm enjoying it significantly.
It feels good to use, Its versitile which is helpful for my build. Doesnt feel overly strong but helps me out where I need it which gives me good hope for it in PVP use. All in all great job.
As for Trans scaleing I could take it or leave it but what you've posted has some interesting idea's

[AstralUniverse]

Transmutation foci already is the best scaling spell school for warpriest and shaman. Have it scale with evocation instead, and make the aura damage boost +2/+4/+6. There's no need to double down on the already most logical spellschool to invest in as the classes who are already the most logical to take Elevator on. This doesnt scream 'build diversity' and 'decisions!' to me.

[Svrtr]

Transmutation foci already is the best scaling spell school for warpriest and shaman. Have it scale with evocation instead, and make the aura damage boost +2/+4/+6. There's no need to double down on the already most logical spellschool to invest in as the classes who are already the most logical to take Elevator on. This doesnt scream 'build diversity' and 'decisions!' to me.

Transmutation is not something often taken on warpriest due to the necessity to get arcane defense abjuration if any tumble dip is taken, and similarly transmutation is in a weird grey area of "If I take this for the bonus to zoo spells and rely on them, I risk losing that much more to dispels" as a sort of logical pit fall. Shaman does take transmutation but by necessity as their one notable source of increased melee capability demands they take it for it to be worthwhile.

Ultimately, this spell is an epic transmutation spell, as its basis was similarly a transmutation spell. I am yet still hesitant to give evocation scaling, if only by virtue of continued consideration to make a caster equivalent on which such ideas would fit better.

At the end of the day, if any transmutation scaling is done, it is something that will be small, something so small that the goal is you will be rewarded if you have transmutation, but will not feel that the foci is necessary for the spell to function (hence the fact the base stats will not be touched).

Ultimately though, if there is no transmutation scaling there will likely be no spell foci scaling, if in part because the only other epic spell that has cross school scaling is epic dragon knight scaling with conjuration but instead necromancy for the dracolich, and of course internal discussion too.

If the concept for a caster equivalent does fall through and is deemed unnecessary to have as a separate spell? Then having both transmutation and evocation scaling is something up for consideration

[Paint]

Expecting shaman and warpriest to take evocation foci to get the most out of elemental avatar is just. Wild. Absolutely wild. Entirely absurd. Very silly. Unmentionably crazy.

[solar separation]

Transmutation foci already is the best scaling spell school for warpriest and shaman. Have it scale with evocation instead, and make the aura damage boost +2/+4/+6. There's no need to double down on the already most logical spellschool to invest in as the classes who are already the most logical to take Elevator on. This doesnt scream 'build diversity' and 'decisions!' to me.

Having it rely on evocation doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a diverse range of viable builds either. Granting classes that already make use of transmutation normally an added reason to use it makes more sense. Which is why I hope that's the route that's maintained.

[AstralUniverse]

Expecting shaman and warpriest to take evocation foci to get the most out of elemental avatar is just. Wild. Absolutely wild. Entirely absurd. Very silly. Unmentionably crazy.

You're usually better than this Paint.

Anyway, it doesnt have to be Evocation. The point is that Transmutation is IN FACT the best scaling school for these classes ALREADY, means that Elevator is better off either scaling with something else or not scaling at all. Doubling down on something that's already more valuable to the class than other things just means it becomes a feat tax. I'm over all genuinely baffled that this feat is even available to Warpriest - who cannot summon anyway and doesnt pay any cost except 1 feat.
Cheers.
Astral, the entirely absurd and silly.