Why is PvE so easy?

[Carrion Eater]

Just popping in to more heavily disclaim the underlined part to other readers who might see a green name and think it's an OK: PLEASE do not consider doing this, as it is a misuse of the -relevel command. We aren't supposed to use the -relevel command for the purpose of leveling as one thing to use its ease of leveling, and then level into another thing once we reach the level it'll work at. Naturally, this means that the leveling experience might be a little more difficult for leveling certain builds that don't "come online" until level 20, 24, etc.

Mr. Electric, send him to the principal’s office and have him expelled!

To be clear, I'm never building to a spreadsheet. It's just not how I prefer to play. I mostly decide on each level, what my next level will be.

This is fine, of course, but when 5 levels after level X I realise build Y would be much better I relevel, even in the knowledge that, at level X, it would have been far more challenging.

This isn't a rule break, can't really even be one as is just so subjective, and certainly never pre-planned, but I'm well aware relevel both makes this approach easy and desirable, but also that it is widespread behaviour.

Free access to relevels makes the game far less challenging

That's fine; a lot of us don't use spreadsheets or paper to write down builds. To clarify how I read it, the specific wording:

"...find myself building to be most effective at my current level, then relevel to a more desired build, for that level, later on."

sounded as if one was suggesting what has been stated as a "do not do this, very bad": building to X level with build A, and then switching to build B when it is more effective later on, with pre-planned intent.

I misunderstood, and I'm glad to admit that I did! Thank you for the clarification on your part as well, and for further explaining an example of what kinds of building errors/mistakes the -relevel command might be used for without being considered misuse.

(and sorry to the others for potential derail from replying to a reply; I don't really have much else to say except what I already said about PVE previously.)

[Rubricae]

Much as I know I shouldn't I sometimes find myself building to be most effective at my current level, then relevel to a more desired build, for that level, later on.

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't that what players were told was an abuse of the relevel system?
that's, a rule break.
i'm not meaning to be incendiary or anything but this is concerning given the statements made regarding this in the past, as well as saying relevel is a reason why pve can be easy.

[Irongron]

The fact that we can see instances where relevel has been used hundreds of times on a single character I think shows pretty clearly how it is often used, and I'm sure if we dug a little deeper we would see just how widespread it is.

As for the rules? It reslly depends on just how one clarifies 'correcting a mistake', because being suboptimal really shouldn't be considered one, but I'm sure many would consider ir so.

Examples that worry me (and to be clear I'd never do) id to take something like a palemaster build (which often don't come into rheir own at later levels) only after one had enough levels to reach it, or to increase dweamorcrafting tier to make one's gear, and then switching away once done, or to redo one'd levels deoending on what gear is available in shops, or using an appraise/search build until rich enough. Sadly I'm pretty convinced this is happening, and a lot. It dininishes both the difficulty of the game, and the economy.

What I do freely admit doing from time to time, though also think isnt ideal, is relevelling more experimentally, as I realise at a certain level that for one reason or another the chatacter just isn't working out, and while doing this I just don't have to consider whether I would have made that same decision had I actually been required to play all the way through.

Recently i had a had a character that gained UMD and perform at level 1-3, but did not really plan to take another batd level until much, much later. So going through 20 or so levels with a bard song several tiers below the potential I had the unpleasamt realization that free relevels meant I could of course take that 4th level any time, and just relevel at a later time, and in doing so take last level later only then. Again, I did not, but short of taking a VERY deep look at how players are using their relevels this kind of behavuour would be very hard to detect.

This is very much what I mean when I refer to how easy relevels can make the game, and how subjective making that call as to when someone is 'correcting a mistake "Oh...I should have taken my bard level later and am now 'fixing' that" vs when they are simply gaming the system 'I checked the records and saw you took your last bard level at 16, 20 and again at 27 - that's a rule break."

Obviously if I were breaking any rules with how I use the command I'd get in as much hot water as anyone, I'm in no way shielded when I play, as past instances have proven. I'm also a bit torn as to just how to resolve this issue, because as someone that doesn't meticulously plan every aspect of a character (and find doing so stupifyingly dull) -relevel is an absolute lifesaver, but when on the DM client I often notice builds that indicate we either have a great many suboptimal players running atound, or that the 'best for level' practice is alarmingly widespread.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The concept of "being too easy" can be broken down into two parts.

Part one, anyone who is smart with consumables, angles, and knows that damage > than defense is going to have an easier time of nwn pve. That last part may sound counter-intuitive to many until you think about the odds of 5 bad guys surrounding you of rolling a few twenties compared to just killing them dead before they do real damage.

Part two, and this is more arelith specific, dungeons are easy because you can kill small groups at a time, rest at will, and with the right consumables make your ac high enough to make it so any spawns need to roll a 20 to hit. I get where the point about relevel being a thing is coming from, but truth be told I can play builds that will never have a sweet spot (and do often!) and have 0 issue leveling.

Now, I will be honest, I think the challenge level of dungeons is fine. A huge part of Arelith's popularity is how easy it is to at least be a level 30, even if you can't crack getting involved in any other meaningful way just yet. I would love to see some more last bastion level dungeons as I mentioned in the thread about...I don't know, it had dungeons in it. But I think making the leveling process more frustrating would only appeal to a small subset of players, even if I admit I am one of them, and these should be optional choices with phat rewards.

[RedGiant]

I have said this before. This is a PW. While the module should offer reasonable challenge, end game content is probably better realized in other players; their schemes, wars, and politics.

The problem is the module has to be balanced for a solo rogue in Australia just as much as it does for me and my 19 friends rolling the duergar, again, on Euro/USA time.

On both the PvE/PvP front, NWN is not well designed to support MMORPG style-play. Amassing a critical number of players virtually guarantees you victory in any situation. This is more the real problem than the OP IMO.

Fortunately, diminishing rewards, bickering, and boredom usually mean any such critical mass of players has a limited shelf-life. So maybe we already have the solution.

[-XXX-]

More endgame party dungeons like the Lost Bastille plz.

[ThisIsNotADrill]

This is mostly a consequence of the way 3rd edition scales classes.

Early game challenge (sometimes egregiously severe), late game ease is sort of a design failing of 3rd edition in general. Level 1 wizard dies pathetically to a single rat bite, Level 15 wizard can turn a dragon into a blueberry pie (this is not a metaphor).

Most classes are not front-loaded with features/abilities/tools; the majority of them don't get anything cool, useful, powerful, or even fun until later levels (sometimes 10+, imagine not getting a core feature until your campaign at the table is nearly over) which causes pretty significant power spikes once certain progression thresholds are met. It makes early levels a slog, and later levels a party.

Balancing around these threshold spikes is a never-ending self-perpetuating nightmare since different classes and class combinations have them at different points in their career.

Rebalancing all classes to smooth out these spikes in progression is a nightmare of even greater magnitude probably.

Ultimately, this is an RP server and the true endgame is how you engage with your fellow players and reconcile these inconsistencies.

[Rubricae]

Obviously if I were breaking any rules with how I use the command I'd get in as much hot water as anyone, I'm in no way shielded when I play, as past instances have proven. I'm also a bit torn as to just how to resolve this issue, because as someone that doesn't meticulously plan every aspect of a character (and find doing so stupifyingly dull) -relevel is an absolute lifesaver, but when on the DM client I often notice builds that indicate we either have a great many suboptimal players running atound, or that the 'best for level' practice is alarmingly widespread.

A recommendation that myself and other players came up with would be to treat relevel the similarly as the -head command. Activating it gives you free reign to relevel as necessary for say, 60 or so minutes(perhaps 30, but 60 gives people like me time to go 'wait, shit'). A cooldown of the command for a day would be preferable, otherwise something more like a week. Nothing egregiously lengthy, because nothing sucks the life out of the players more than arbitrary time-gating.

Personally, I do not think the command should be changed at all, and instead continue to go after the outliers that abuse the command. Whether it's constantly relevelling in the same level for whatever obstacle you're in front of in the moment, or to be a temporary sail / appraise / search / kitchen sink bot.

As for finding it dull, I can only recommend not using the command and playing as usual as if it does not exist or limiting personal use of the command.

As for the rules? It really depends on just how one clarifies 'correcting a mistake', because being suboptimal really shouldn't be considered one, but I'm sure many would consider it so.

Much as I know I shouldn't I sometimes find myself building to be most effective at my current level, then relevel to a more desired build, for that level, later on.

From examples provided by staff members - mostly during the most recent announcement regarding relevel - correcting a mistake does not include this. If I am incorrect then so be it, though I'd say it goes to show the lack of clarity when it comes to what is abuse and what isn't.

As an aside, I do appreciate the staff team's more gentle approach when it comes to what is a correction and what isn't. For as scary as the announcements make it seem, there's a lot of room for players to operate with the command without being in trouble. That is a good thing.
Taking advantage of it, is obviously not.

------

Discussion of relevel out the window entirely - as I don't believe it's the reason that 'pve content is too easy' - different classes experience the game differently. My FTR/WM/LM will have a more difficult time with certain dungeons than my Cleric/LM, but that same character will experience road-blocks differently than my world famous 13 Druid / 17 Shifter(which I don't recommend, ever).
Such is the nature of the game. I think that PVE content as a whole is in a decent place, with only certain dungeons being absolute unbearable slogs that are genuinely unfun to spend any time in.

The difficulty curve mentioned by the OP I will have to disagree with, as throughout levelling multiple casters, summoners, martials(none of which are spellsword!), I can confidently say that I have nightmares about the Shadowplane Belfry and the Border Reavers rather consistently. That is to say, some dungeons are much, much harder than others - and I don't think I ever reached a point where I could confidently say 'yeah i'm over-powered now', unless I was going into the Cordor sewers at level 14.

[Arctic]

Mixed mobs and the more prevalent addition of mind immunity (innate or spells), dispels/breaches, high spell resistance, high spot/true seeing, padded health pools, high-UCL undead summons (such as the latest deathdrinker demons having mummy dust orb wraiths), and so on help to add a layer of mechanical difficulty for certain classes while being a breeze for others.

I hate dispels and breaches with a passion, especially when the dungeon is otherwise challenging or the mobs can apply certain status effects such as slow, stun, paralyze etc.. You usually have a low chance of passing the save and failing once is often a death sentence. It hurts spellswords and other casters sure but non-casters are usually hurt just as much if not more in the form of resources. Another breach is another potion or two you have to spend.

Magic and buffs in NWN and Arelith is usually the difference between comfortably succeeding and failing catastrophically. Do the wrong things to make things harder and non-casters are going to become weaker, not stronger. Class balance is at the core of this issue, after all.

[Eyeliner]

Obviously if I were breaking any rules with how I use the command I'd get in as much hot water as anyone, I'm in no way shielded when I play, as past instances have proven. I'm also a bit torn as to just how to resolve this issue, because as someone that doesn't meticulously plan every aspect of a character (and find doing so stupifyingly dull) -relevel is an absolute lifesaver, but when on the DM client I often notice builds that indicate we either have a great many suboptimal players running atound, or that the 'best for level' practice is alarmingly widespread.

Well, I think there's a third but very common option- new classes, spells and other features are becoming very far removed from base NWN and D&D and need to be playtested in game to see what works (or works for you). Classes like Harbringer, Hemomancers, even Dirgesingers are getting really complicated and I can't tell from reading the Wiki how going this way or that will really work in the long run. Yes we have the PGCC and it's great for building but you can't really see what it's like to run an epic dungeon on it.

If relevel was taken away I'd never play anything that wasn't tried and true, because it just sucks to play a character that went a route that seemed like a good idea on paper but has fatal flaws.

[Irongron]

Over the last year I"ve started characters in Sencliff, Andunor, Skal, Brogendenstein, and Cordor in some cases this was the first time I properly playrested my work on each.

Very broadly, and speaking from the new character perspective, Arelith's PvE is definitely not too easy, and the lowest levels are among the most challenging. Sencliff is the easiest, with its plainsailing (forgive pun) native writs and easy access to those of Cordor. The most challenging is Skaljard, that still seems to have a pretty steep curve after Wynn and the Founders Cave.

As one gwts into mid level a lot depends on one's build, and possibly more on the coin one has for consumables, while access to undead summons or one of the stronger henchmen makes everything easier.

As has been noted above the game then seems to get significantly easier, as ine gains access to high end gear, and especially with a party (or access to a boat) there seems to be little challenge at epic levels, coupled with lightning progress this is likely less than ideal.

Overall though I find Arelith PvE really quite well balanced considering the complexity and diversity of character builds, and the poor AI of the spawns.

[AnselHoenheim]

Level 17 Warlock, basic +1 constitution equipment, solo content.

Took me 10 minutes to clear up the Deep Glen

That's all I have to say.

[Security_Blanket]

It's all a matter of perspective, as an abjurationist wizard with no conjuration grinding in PvE has been insanely tedious. I can deal with it, but it's something other classes don't experience, which can be a little irritating at times. I wish I had unlimited offensive spells, or a flashy summon to carry me along, nope, I get to spam color spray a million times over and avoid anything that's mind-immune.

[Eyeliner]

Level 17 Warlock, basic +1 constitution equipment, solo content.

Took me 10 minutes to clear up the Deep Glen

That's all I have to say.

Deep Glen is a very old area and a particularly easy writ so I don't think it's totally indicative. I think adding the final boss to the writ requirements would be a simple way to step up the difficulty a bit.

[AnselHoenheim]

Level 17 Warlock, basic +1 constitution equipment, solo content.

Took me 10 minutes to clear up the Deep Glen

That's all I have to say.

Deep Glen is a very old area and a particularly easy writ so I don't think it's totally indicative. I think adding the final boss to the writ requirements would be a simple way to step up the difficulty a bit.

Except in this case it's just an example, there has been other writs I have finished with no problem with my warlock, in solo, sometimes not even using consumables even.

[Perplexia]

Except in this case it's just an example, there has been other writs I have finished with no problem with my warlock, in solo, sometimes not even using consumables even.

as somebody who has played a lot of warlocks i can assure you the writs are not the problem here

[chris a gogo]

You also didn't include build blasters have a very fast clear rate just boring game play IMO.

Plus warlocks were the easiest class to level up before the abomination that is spell sword.