Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

[Hoodoo]

Please post your feedback, negative, positive, etc. within this thread. It will all be looked at and considered if changes are made or another trial occurs.

[Dreams]

Doesn't this have a not-detectable chance for abuse?

For example, here's some situations that come to mind:

• Someone uses the ability to see when someone else is typing in order to choose that moment to PvP. Assume that all RP and PvP rules are otherwise followed, is that a fair situation? How could it be known whether someone does this by mistake or on purpose?

• Connected to the above point, if the rules change to disallow PvP against someone who is typing, that could equally be abused by someone just keeping their chat bar engaged as a safe mode. How could it be known whether someone is just typing slowly or abusing this?

• Silence in roleplay is a very powerful tool. Someone encountering silence often feels the need to keep talking, so when a character is silent during negotiations or an interrogation you'll often get a bit more by giving the other player more space to keep talking. You don't get that when there is a feedback indicator.

• Doesn't this turn Arelith into a "You go, I go" kind of back and forth rather than a spontaneous conversation? Players are more likely to say their piece and take their time saying it, then wait for the other person to finish before they continue their next bit.

• Seeing that someone is typing is not the same as seeing that another character is speaking. A player could be writing an emotive paragraph that is just filler and description, rather than continuing a conversation in RP. If the other people in the RP think they're speaking, they might wait to reply, realise they said nothing, then start typing their response. What this does is slow down the roleplay even moreso than it already is. Consider that to have a real conversation beyond the basic small-chat-shit on Arelith potentially takes in game hours, which is much worse when players are often alt-tabbed into Discord or playing other games during the roleplay.

(I'm going to forever opt-out of a system like this.)

[Kythana]

Doesn't this have a not-detectable chance for abuse?

For example, here's some situations that come to mind:

• Someone uses the ability to see when someone else is typing in order to choose that moment to PvP. Assume that all RP and PvP rules are otherwise followed, is that a fair situation? How could it be known whether someone does this by mistake or on purpose?

• Connected to the above point, if the rules change to disallow PvP against someone who is typing, that could equally be abused by someone just keeping their chat bar engaged as a safe mode. How could it be known whether someone is just typing slowly or abusing this?

• Silence in roleplay is a very powerful tool. Someone encountering silence often feels the need to keep talking, so when a character is silent during negotiations or an interrogation you'll often get a bit more by giving the other player more space to keep talking. You don't get that when there is a feedback indicator.

• Doesn't this turn Arelith into a "You go, I go" kind of back and forth rather than a spontaneous conversation? Players are more likely to say their piece and take their time saying it, then wait for the other person to finish before they continue their next bit.

• Seeing that someone is typing is not the same as seeing that another character is speaking. A player could be writing an emotive paragraph that is just filler and description, rather than continuing a conversation in RP. If the other people in the RP think they're speaking, they might wait to reply, realise they said nothing, then start typing their response. What this does is slow down the roleplay even moreso than it already is. Consider that to have a real conversation beyond the basic small-chat-shit on Arelith potentially takes in game hours, which is much worse when players are often alt-tabbed into Discord or playing other games during the roleplay.

(I'm going to forever opt-out of a system like this.)

You can turn it on and off at will. The abuse argument holds no water; If you don't want others to see you typing, they won't. If you don't want to see indicators at all, you won't.

[Hoodoo]

Doesn't this have a not-detectable chance for abuse?

For example, here's some situations that come to mind:

• Someone uses the ability to see when someone else is typing in order to choose that moment to PvP. Assume that all RP and PvP rules are otherwise followed, is that a fair situation? How could it be known whether someone does this by mistake or on purpose?

• Connected to the above point, if the rules change to disallow PvP against someone who is typing, that could equally be abused by someone just keeping their chat bar engaged as a safe mode. How could it be known whether someone is just typing slowly or abusing this?

• Silence in roleplay is a very powerful tool. Someone encountering silence often feels the need to keep talking, so when a character is silent during negotiations or an interrogation you'll often get a bit more by giving the other player more space to keep talking. You don't get that when there is a feedback indicator.

• Doesn't this turn Arelith into a "You go, I go" kind of back and forth rather than a spontaneous conversation? Players are more likely to say their piece and take their time saying it, then wait for the other person to finish before they continue their next bit.

• Seeing that someone is typing is not the same as seeing that another character is speaking. A player could be writing an emotive paragraph that is just filler and description, rather than continuing a conversation in RP. If the other people in the RP think they're speaking, they might wait to reply, realise they said nothing, then start typing their response. What this does is slow down the roleplay even moreso than it already is. Consider that to have a real conversation beyond the basic small-chat-shit on Arelith potentially takes in game hours, which is much worse when players are often alt-tabbed into Discord or playing other games during the roleplay.

(I'm going to forever opt-out of a system like this.)

Points 1 and 2 can be solved by disabling the typing indicator for yourself.

3, that was one of the concerns raised. I did have some interactions and it felt quite natural, but we can't really tell until we see it in the wild. That's the reason for the trial run. I dislike that, but I didn't feel it affected the interruptions, interjections, and natural flow etc.

I think point 4 ties into point 3. I understand that seeing a typing indicator will make you think that it'll be a "I'll wait for your bubble to finish before I start mine", but we don't really know in reality. In my limited testing that's absolutely not what happened, but I and everyone else will see if that is the case for the majority of instances.

Typing indicators already somewhat exist by the use of "wiggling" to indicate they're not typing. I also do believe that there are instances where it COULD prove detrimental, but the aliasing/quick switching is purposefully convenient so that you can just disable it in cases where it could potentially actually hurt you or cause an instance of metagaming. It's why I made it a command and not an option for the rest menu, though if this trial is positive I will include it there as well. I was not going to just slap the typing indicator on, hook it into the event, and leave it be as that would exclude a large portion of the playerbase.

I totally respect the fact you want to disable something like this. People have anxiety, stress, fears, worries, about seeing a typing indicator looming... pressuring them to type faster. That's why I spent the extra time scripting a solution for those that just don't want to have the option, it's a 100% valid concern and that's why we provide an option for it.

[Dreams]

Points 1 and 2 can be solved by disabling the typing indicator for yourself.

It's not solved. It just means that some players will be aware of this possibility and not use the system. Players who act in bad faith will opt-in and those who do use it run the risk of this happening to them. The rules can't catch around the new system if not everyone is using it, so it's going to more likely going to favour someone who is ready for shotgun-style PvP.

Typing indicators already somewhat exist by the use of "wiggling" to indicate they're not typing.

I've never seen this in game. I've seen people wiggle in a way that is more agitating or when they're memeing?

I also do believe that there are instances where it COULD prove detrimental, but the aliasing/quick switching is purposefully convenient so that you can just disable it in cases where it could potentially actually hurt you or cause an instance of metagaming.

Isn't this a problem in itself? People swapping in and out of a system like this when it's most convenient for them kind of undermines the whole reason for having it.

I totally respect the fact you want to disable something like this. People have anxiety, stress, fears, worries, about seeing a typing indicator looming... pressuring them to type faster. That's why I spent the extra time scripting a solution for those that just don't want to have the option, it's a 100% valid concern and that's why we provide an option for it.

I type quick so it's not really a problem for me. I can see it really hurting other players. Being able to opt-out doesn't change the way the rest of the community feels about whether someone is in/out, and it then creates a feeling that people aren't acting in good faith if they're not using the system. It further breaks down trust in a situation where player trust in RP goes a very long way.

[Kythana]

Why not just try out the system instead of speculating the 1000 different ways that it could be potentially abused?

I've seen this across numerous different RP mediums, and almost always, it's been completely beneficial and helpful. Doomposting 20 minutes after an update is released without even testing it out is very silly.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'm so happy to see this, it's such a nice QOL knowing if the other person is taking their time typing, or if they're waiting for you to reply. The hardest thing about swapping back and forth between swlor and Arelith is losing the typing indicator when I return to Arelith, it's very jarring. It disrupts the flow of RP for me in ways I never realized it would before having experienced it.

It's very hard on me because I generally speak faster. And so I'm sitting there trying to decide if I'm pushing the other player with too many details all at once and I should stop because they're now trying to reply, or if they're waiting on me to continue. And likewise, sometimes I start replying when the other player is typing out a 2nd reply to expand on what they first said, because I don't realize they have more to say. And it ends up making the conversation really messy.

My go-to has been tap A and D a few times to show that I'm not typing and hope the other person notices I'm not typing and I'm wiggling in place. But there's so many situations where that doesn't work.

I'm not sure why it's on pgcc first. I logged in, checked it worked. Do you want me to harass people to come and RP with me on PGCC?

[Hoodoo]

I'm not sure why it's on pgcc first. I logged in, checked it worked. Do you want me to harass people to come and RP with me on PGCC?

(Re-replying after accidentally possessing you, sorry about that)
I had to do some testing with a sizeable amount of players to ensure everything was working correctly and smoothly. So I put it on PGCC. When I confirmed everything was fine, I staged it for live and that's that. Yes, please make PGCC Cordor 2.0

As a note, I'm going to be sleeping soon so I will most likely not be able to comment on this feedback thread until tomorrow.

[Dreams]

Why not just try out the system instead of speculating the 1000 different ways that it could be potentially abused?

I've seen this across numerous different RP mediums, and almost always, it's been completely beneficial and helpful. Doomposting 20 minutes after an update is released without even testing it out is very silly.

It's a feedback thread asking for feedback. I'm not doomposting, I'm sharing my opinion of this system. You might have different feelings on it, that's cool, share your feedback.

[Second Breakfast]

So, it is my understanding that many are praising this change. Those who don’t can opt out. That is great, and very likely what I intend to do.

However, my biggest concern is that this will greatly affect the server’s culture and not necessarily for the better. How will those who have clearly opted out be treated by those who opted in? To what extent will they be handled differently? Will players who opted-out by simply passed over by those who opted-in, thinking they are AFK (just for one example I’ll offer).

I think these are all important questions in need of answers.

[Hincules]

I like it over all, but I think the indicator should be like 20% of the current size, it's massive in its current form.

I also dislike that it appears for everything including tells. I would prefer to have it default off if chat starts with a - or / (excluding /w or /s)

If I disable it, it will be because of whispers and tells. In the case of whispers, there are some circumstances where people seeing you whisper makes sense, but there is no discretion for when those situations would be. If our backs are to people, they're not going to immediately know we're whispering.

Is there a limit from how far away you can see the icon? I think that is a big factor on whether or not I'd use it as well.

[The Moon]

I want to be upfront that I am opting out (because anxiety reasonings), but with opting out I'm also fully expecting to need to turn -notells on. Obviously, I'm going to be giving the community the benefit of the doubt, but I know that the server does have people that like to /tell for petty things and I'm afraid this is just going to be one more thing that people will be terrible to others about.

I share Breakfast's concerns that there will be a schism/divide in the playerbase in the form of quackers and anti-quackers, and that the worst will be assumed of both by the "opposing" side. And a few questions I'd like to know is if opting in or out is going to reflect in any particular way in reports? Is opt in/out going to be checked in PvP scenarios and used to presume ill intent or ignorance?

[Kythana]

I highly encourage those that are thinking of immediately opting out to at least give this a try. There are many things that we might think we dislike, but in practice, they function completely differently.

I don't think it that's unreasonable to at least toggle it on for some RP one evening. Be open minded, and see what it's actually like instead of speculating of what you think it's like.

[-stick-]

Its a great tool for tavern rp

[Spriggan Bride]

Offhand I think it will chip away at immersion a bit too much. I think I'll be that much more conscious of the human on the other side of the screen instead of the character when I see the typing "quackers" that are so similar to Discord or text message apps. I can see the usefulness in some situations, but I'll probably not use it myself.

[The Moon]

I highly encourage those that are thinking of immediately opting out to at least give this a try. There are many things that we might think we dislike, but in practice, they function completely differently.

I don't think it that's unreasonable to at least toggle it on for some RP one evening. Be open minded, and see what it's actually like instead of speculating of what you think it's like.

Personally, I know for a fact that I dislike it when people can see when I am typing and for how long. It's pressure to type quickly and make sure it's written well, that I know for a fact that I cannot handle.

Trust that people know what they like and do not like, and make the decision on what is best for them.

Just because some people won't have it on doesn't mean that their thoughts on the widget are invalid. There's a lot of good points so far, and trying to stan it and insist people use it actually does a bit to prove the points people have already mentioned about people opting out being treated differently than others.

All that aside, someone mentioned it can reveal when you're whispering or doing /tells, and I think everyone can agree that they'd rather not get meta'd like that. It already happens plenty with people immediately examining disguises in efforts to break it.

[Darkstorn42]

I feel like the are a lot of doom sayers and worry worts. I for one am excited to test this out. Often times I feel like RP, especially with more that 5 people, just becomes everyone doing their own thing and conversations amongst a group can be hard to follow. I echo the comment that sometimes I am a text warrior and type too quickly. This will allow me to slow down. It should also make it feel more like a natural conversation instead of quiets where you aren't sure if the other person is typing or afk.

I don't know how often I type out a long response, which means there was a long quiet, to only delete it and type "uh huh". The quackers will now let them know I spent all that time actually crafting my response with thought, and not that I am distracted somewhere else, but actually engaged.

I disagree that whisper shouldn't show quackers, but maybe have a range? But tells and console commands shouldn't. IDK if this is possible to be implemented, however

I have so many thoughts about how beneficial the system will be for 99% of interactions and the player base as a whole. Thank you for adding this.

(I will update this once I get more time with the system, assuming I don't forget)
Update:
I played with it a little, and I love it. I realize that often times when RPing with others I feel myself sitting there wondering if they are afk or not. This helps let me know I am not alone and there is someone else there, another human being, that I am interacting with. I can see how some might not like it, it can be a bit intrusive, and it certainly needs some tweaks, like what to do with whispers and console commands (written after /tell update).

[Kythana]

I highly encourage those that are thinking of immediately opting out to at least give this a try. There are many things that we might think we dislike, but in practice, they function completely differently.

I don't think it that's unreasonable to at least toggle it on for some RP one evening. Be open minded, and see what it's actually like instead of speculating of what you think it's like.

Trust that people know what they like and do not like, and make the decision on what is best for them.

Funny, because I've known many people, including myself, who have insisted they would hate something. Whether it be a type of food, video game, movie, ect, and refused to try it. And only when they were finally convinced to do so later on did their opinion change.

If someone goes into this feature, tries it out, and decides, 'Hey, that wasn't for me.' Cool. Great. But if the negative feedback consists of, 'Wow, this looks bad. I hate it, and I won't even test it.' Then you haven't really given adequate negative feedback. Engage with it, and critique on seeing it ingame. That's the whole point of a trial run.

There's a lot of good points so far, and trying to stan it and insist people use it actually does a bit to prove the points people have already mentioned about people opting out being treated differently than others.

It proves their points, by doing... what, exactly? If someone says, 'This feature will behave like x ingame', but in reality it behaves like y, then by not trying it, you're not getting the complete experience. To put it into NWN terms, it's the difference between reading a class' features and thinking how they play, and actually playing it.

Nobody is being treated differently, it's just speculation right now. If it happens ingame? Cool. Mention it here, and how you encountered that.

[AstralUniverse]

This is actually a huge change to the 20 yo Arelith RP dynamics. Very curious to see how it ends up. I have concerns, but I am optimistic. It's hard to put to words but I think if this ends well we'd all end up not even caring or noticing these indicators, since a lot of the time while we wait the other side's response we already start organizing our next emote, just to prepare it without firing it off, so those indicators are going to mean less and less as time passes and we get used to them.

When it comes to PVP, I think only only the bottom of the barrel players would abuse it (and it would be easy to spot for a DM who can see if you're seeing quacks..). The mast majority of the playerbase would simply respect that the other guy is typing and give them a second before they attack. It's also probably not that huge of a deal since any wards used at the start already have audio and visual indicators, signaling the other guy to "stop typing, you're under attack mate."

[The Moon]

Funny, because I've known many people, including myself, who have insisted they would hate something. Whether it be a type of food, video game, movie, ect, and refused to try it. And only when they were finally convinced to do so later on did their opinion change.

If someone goes into this feature, tries it out, and decides, 'Hey, that wasn't for me.' Cool. Great. But if the negative feedback consists of, 'Wow, this looks bad. I hate it, and I won't even test it.' Then you haven't really given adequate negative feedback. Engage with it, and critique on seeing it ingame. That's the whole point of a trial run.

I see what you're saying, but the opposite is also true. People know what they don't like, and it's fine for them to decide not to engage with that. There's nothing particularly novel or new about this versus, say, Facebook messenger, Discord, or iPhone messaging. Acting like it's going to be different from other functionalities which performs exactly like this is disingenuous.

It proves their points, by doing... what, exactly?

To reply, let's reference a post that isn't mine.

However, my biggest concern is that this will greatly affect the server’s culture and not necessarily for the better. How will those who have clearly opted out be treated by those who opted in?

Your arguing with people opting out in this thread is fairly dismissive on the basis of "you haven't even tried it" when the concerns people are bringing up as feedback are valid to bring up. This tool is going to result in abuses of the system (like any other system), and there are some inherent issues with the fact that it's not uniform across the server because it's opt in/out as well as the limitations from how old this game is (all input is considered, which is the whispers/tells issue in a nutshell).

Already, your tone is passive aggressive because "people change their mind all the time", and you're continuing to miss the point that people should be able to choose to opt in or out, even right off the bat, without necessarily having to justify themselves on that point and be free of people trying to pressure them one way or another - but people are here, because this is a feedback thread, and they want their points to be heard instead of dismissed or overlooked.

I don't see you criticizing people who have the functionality enabled, and their feedback being submitted (some even before the patch went in), so what gives?

Sure, people should try it! Trying to convince people of the benefit (being able to tell when someone is typing) isn't going to do anything when you're dismissing their opinions on it because "they didn't actually try it out".

[Coralon_AU]

Just had my first RP interaction with this system and I am a fan. It still allows for conversation flow, and knowing someone else is typing really helped me with my own pauses to allow them time, but also did not prevent me from continuing with my own dialogue if I had not finished what I was saying.

I continued to emote like I normally would, the indicator just showed that I was typing which is a nice way for me to let the other person know "Hey person, I am engaging with you, just bear with me a second". I like how it reminded me to be a little more dynamic with my responses than just preparing some baked cookies to press enter on.

I do not PvP unless it is unavoidable, but I would hope that those that do actually use the typing indicators to be fair. The few times I have fought, I have been caught flat footed because I was not the first to clickity click mainly because I was typity typing.

For those that like to zoom in close during conversations, the graphic could be a little smaller. When you are zoomed all the way out the size is ok but up close it is dominating. A smaller size could also help a little with the pixelation of the indicator, if I had one negative criticism it would be that the indicator does not meld with the rest of the UI given it is so prominent.

Something that may not be possible programmatically is when the indicator is shown. At the moment it starts to show as soon as you have your cursor in the message bar (either by clicking directly or pressing enter). I understand this is likely event driven and thus quite cheap versus what I think many people will ask for, and that is to only show up after something or a certain thing has been typed which would require constant polling if I am not mistaken... and likely the end of all good things in the world.

All in all, pretty happy with it thus far. Keen to see what others have to say.

[Alhooness]

So far, loving the way it's feeling, it's easy to just turn off if it ever gets too overwhelming (like in large groups), but is great for knowing if people are about to post something so I'm not just, talking over them. As some others have said, I do feel like it could be a bit smaller, but otherwise it feels integrated in very well.

I would love to see a "Toggle" option added to the on/off parameter of the command, so that you could quickly toggle it on/off with just a single toolbar slot.

[The Vandals of Rome]

SNIP

-snipped-

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but this is pretty rude.

I also turned the system off, because I really don't like this sort of mindset.

It's anxiety inducing.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

SNIP

-snipped-

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but this is pretty rude.

I also turned the system off, because I really don't like this sort of mindset.

It's anxiety inducing.

I apologize, I didn't mean it to be rude. I wanted to say that silence gives me anxiety. I want to fill silence. I don't know what to do with silence. And it makes things awkward, because I am not giving other players time to cook if I speak too much. The indicator is very, very helpful to me. It makes it way easier for me to understand when to talk and when not to talk. It's disappointing to me that so many people aren't even going to give it a try, because I can't stress enough how helpful it is for me as a player to follow the flow of conversation. It's like an accessibility feature for people who are bad at conversations.

[Agog_fr]

Thank you very much for this new feature. It's very usefull.