What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

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What is your sentiment on Arelith's current leveling speed and rate of xp gain?

It is too fast
146
38%
It is fine
185
48%
It is too slow
58
15%
 
Total votes: 389

chris a gogo
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by chris a gogo » Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:41 pm

It is held by a bunch of players yes.
But not the majority as the poll shows.

I have no problem with the current leveling speed, in the "good" old days I would get bored of leveling in epics as I hate circle grinding and that is how everyone leveled to 30,you had to as you only got your tick XP 10-40 and kill XP.
Yes you spent longer in the early levels because getting the XP needed to level meant you had to spend days grinding out kills, and the bramble woods were full of running low levels circle grinding the spawns until they were high enough to go grind the next bunch.
It was slow it was painful and the players you met were more focused on doing the grind than they were on RP, why?
Because it was tedious and you had to do it so it became a chore.
The increased XP gain from writs means you go to different area's and you don't have to circle grind to level up, this is a good thing it means the casual player can still level up and be on par with those players that have a lot more free time.

You want to take longer to level up don't take the writs just go on the tasks helping others or just go to the area and kill & loot the spawns, no one is forcing anyone to take the jobs and get the XP.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Xerah » Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:30 am

chris a gogo wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:41 pm

It is held by a bunch of players yes.
But not the majority as the poll shows.

I have no problem with the current leveling speed, in the "good" old days I would get bored of leveling in epics as I hate circle grinding and that is how everyone leveled to 30,you had to as you only got your tick XP 10-40 and kill XP.
Yes you spent longer in the early levels because getting the XP needed to level meant you had to spend days grinding out kills, and the bramble woods were full of running low levels circle grinding the spawns until they were high enough to go grind the next bunch.
It was slow it was painful and the players you met were more focused on doing the grind than they were on RP, why?
Because it was tedious and you had to do it so it became a chore.
The increased XP gain from writs means you go to different area's and you don't have to circle grind to level up, this is a good thing it means the casual player can still level up and be on par with those players that have a lot more free time.

You want to take longer to level up don't take the writs just go on the tasks helping others or just go to the area and kill & loot the spawns, no one is forcing anyone to take the jobs and get the XP.

When 40% of your population thinks one way, even if it is not the majority, it can't be ignored.

People need to stop using the "take freelance writ" or "don't press level up" etc., that's just a strawman argument that doesn't fix the issue. There's a fundamental difference between making bad decisions just because vs leveling as per the normal server progression. Me leveling slowly is only going to make it impossible to "meet people along the way" since they'll be nowhere near the level you are in a week.

I don't have any wish to go back to the circle grinding, lassoing dudes system either. No one is saying that. Really, just read God in Action's post (all your points were addressed in there), which explains the issue completely. You can disagree, and that's fine, but there's no need to reduce our argument down.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:39 am

I have to echo the sentiment, GodInAction's post is exactly what I feel as well.

It used to be that character relationships would naturally occur, because we were all struggling to level, because there was always someone going out on a hunt somewhere, over many weeks and months.

These days, I have had characters that barely got to know anyone before they are 30, it's insane. I don't feel like I have been doing anything different than I did back then, it's just that things work differently now.

I honestly don't know what the solution is either. Writs have been good to make people explore the server. Beforehand there were areas no one went to, because they were difficult and not worth the time. You now have people giving all areas a try due to writs. I feel like changing it to 1 Writ per day wouldn't necessarily change much, and removing Writs at this point or lowering the EXP might not be feasible.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by DwarfPrideWorldWide » Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:02 am

Xerah wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:30 am
chris a gogo wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:41 pm

It is held by a bunch of players yes.
But not the majority as the poll shows.

I have no problem with the current leveling speed, in the "good" old days I would get bored of leveling in epics as I hate circle grinding and that is how everyone leveled to 30,you had to as you only got your tick XP 10-40 and kill XP.
Yes you spent longer in the early levels because getting the XP needed to level meant you had to spend days grinding out kills, and the bramble woods were full of running low levels circle grinding the spawns until they were high enough to go grind the next bunch.
It was slow it was painful and the players you met were more focused on doing the grind than they were on RP, why?
Because it was tedious and you had to do it so it became a chore.
The increased XP gain from writs means you go to different area's and you don't have to circle grind to level up, this is a good thing it means the casual player can still level up and be on par with those players that have a lot more free time.

You want to take longer to level up don't take the writs just go on the tasks helping others or just go to the area and kill & loot the spawns, no one is forcing anyone to take the jobs and get the XP.

When 40% of your population thinks one way, even if it is not the majority, it can't be ignored.

People need to stop using the "take freelance writ" or "don't press level up" etc., that's just a strawman argument that doesn't fix the issue. There's a fundamental difference between making bad decisions just because vs leveling as per the normal server progression. Me leveling slowly is only going to make it impossible to "meet people along the way" since they'll be nowhere near the level you are in a week.

I don't have any wish to go back to the circle grinding, lassoing dudes system either. No one is saying that. Really, just read God in Action's post (all your points were addressed in there), which explains the issue completely. You can disagree, and that's fine, but there's no need to reduce our argument down.

I've read godinactions post, but I still genuinely don't understand what is stopping anyone from interacting? How does leveling slowly make it impossible to meet people along the way, someone outleveling you does not equate to you suddenly being unable to RP with them in my opinion. I am legitimately incredibly confused by these sentiments. I don't understand why leveling faster somehow equates to you not being able to meet people along the way? I think this is honestly more a problem with the servers turnaround then it is anything else, sometimes there are a lot of new characters and you get lucky and find a group to run with and pal around with, other times you are on your own. This is what it's been like in my experience and it isn't anything new and I don't think it has anything at all to do with the writ rework or the leveling rework as this was how it was before that and is how it has always been in my experience.

I am confused as to what exactly it stopping anyone from just going out with your character and making the connections and IC relationships you want to make? The server is massive there's hundreds of characters you can usually rp with at any given time.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:32 am

I've read it to and I don't agree.
I've had apprentice role play my last mage had two apprentices one was on a different time zone to me so didn't work to well the other was great lots of master apprentice role play, and when they hit level 9 magic I made them a journeyman(took them 3 weeks).

Also had tons of RP while leveling up and made dozens of allies and IC friends, so it's not the leveling speed that's stopping you from doing anything it's your choices as a player.

Lastly.
The writ system is totally optional no one has to use it, it is your choice as a player as to how fast you gain levels.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Eira » Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:59 am

The problem isn't "I'm leveling too fast" or "waahh everyone around me is leveling faster" but that the rate of "create character, hit 30, roll character" that is a large part of the population is a choice people make to go as fast as possible. It is a choice people make to not take their time on building their reputation, connections, working through a story. And it is a choice they make to keep going "no, leveling is still not fast enough, it must be faster, it must be even more convenient."

If Arelith was meant to be a level 30 server with your story starting only at level 30, then we'd all start at level 30. But we don't. The journey is supposed to be as much a part of your character as the height of their power.

And at the same time, you have complaints that "the server is controlled by level 30s who have been around for years". You have complaints that there are secrets being kept by the playerbase that take exploration and interaction to find out. That everything is gated, believe it or not, through roleplay.

It is a legitimate problem that people don't want to put too much effort into interacting with others because they expect those others are just going to be rolled in a month. And that's where the "leveling too fast" comes from. I'm not even a super old player and it used to be a thing that you could level with someone one day and then a couple days later, still level with them because they'd be within the same range of dungeons or writs you could do.

Now, I can't personally speak to how it is now, but from what I've seen of others discussing their experiences, it seems if you miss a day, that other person is suddenly 10 levels higher.

This honestly boggles the mind; how is this beneficial to the server we want? How is it that the meme of rp only exists at 30 has more truth to it nowadays than 4 years ago when you could repeat writs or pvp others to earn the right to grind your brains out in orclands? The truth of it is that if the more convenient route is available, then a majority of people will take that route and those who don't can pat themselves on the back and go "well I don't do that, I do real arrpee" but that doesn't fix the problem.

"but everyone else is rushing to 30 so therefore I must rush to 30"

Yeah, I hear you.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Confused Rock » Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:11 pm

I made a suggestion recently about this, but I think one part (of the many many) reasons people feel urged to get to level 30 is because parts of their build don't work until level 30. E.G. you can't level certain skills until you pick your multiclass at level 27 or whatever (so you just keep 30 unused skill points), and you can't pick your multiclass until level 27 because if you pick it earlier then you won't be able to pick skill points later.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Mattamue » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:20 pm

I get the problem that's caused by out leveling or being out leveled by peers. I don't get why slower leveling will change that. That's just trapping a smaller number of peers into the same band for longer.

If it's slower for people to out level each other it's also slower for people to level into range of each other.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:28 pm

So here I'm talking very much about my own highly personal perspective. And that's important, because there's every chance I may just be Wierd.

I like a feeling of 'progress' in my games. I like the feeling of trying to 'get' somewhere. I suppose I'm a bit of a completionist, in a way? I want to log in, and feel like I'm getting closer to... something. The next level. The next bit of story. More gold. Something.

With arelith, I always felt a desire to log on, because I'd tick up towards next level. And I'd get this no matter what, basically. Sure I'd get there faster if I went and ground out Orcs for a bit, but I'd also get a bit closer by just sitting around, chatting to other PCs.

The problem I have now, as mentioned - is the feeling that once I hit 30... that's it. Done. Finished. Why do I log on? If I'm very, very lucky I've a good story line/good other players around. But I have to hope to find those pretty quick. And I have to depend on them being around. IF I don't have those, then... I'm not really... or certainly less... inspired to log on as that character.

And that's why I wish leveling was a bit slower OR there was another... I don't know... time based 'thing' to get. Somethign to work up to on a PC. That might work too?

Again - that's my perspective.

This too shall pass.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Xerah » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:46 pm

You're not weird, Grumpy, that's my view as well.

That's why the claim of "just don't level up/don't take writ" is not a useful argument because I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot. I'm not even one who needs to do their 3 writs a day, but if I walk around, and don't get up to anything, then why not go fight some things? I've always found connections are best formed during the levelling process and/or through apprentice style RP.

I think part of the reason I'm having success currently is that, for the first time, I'm actually trying to upgrade my equipment with T3 runes AND I have a shop to make coin on the side for enchanting/upgrades. So, even though I'm at 30, I can still feel I've got something to do when I don't have anything else to do.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by DwarfPrideWorldWide » Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:39 pm

Eira wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:59 am

The problem isn't "I'm leveling too fast" or "waahh everyone around me is leveling faster" but that the rate of "create character, hit 30, roll character" that is a large part of the population is a choice people make to go as fast as possible. It is a choice people make to not take their time on building their reputation, connections, working through a story. And it is a choice they make to keep going "no, leveling is still not fast enough, it must be faster, it must be even more convenient."

If Arelith was meant to be a level 30 server with your story starting only at level 30, then we'd all start at level 30. But we don't. The journey is supposed to be as much a part of your character as the height of their power.

And at the same time, you have complaints that "the server is controlled by level 30s who have been around for years". You have complaints that there are secrets being kept by the playerbase that take exploration and interaction to find out. That everything is gated, believe it or not, through roleplay.

It is a legitimate problem that people don't want to put too much effort into interacting with others because they expect those others are just going to be rolled in a month. And that's where the "leveling too fast" comes from. I'm not even a super old player and it used to be a thing that you could level with someone one day and then a couple days later, still level with them because they'd be within the same range of dungeons or writs you could do.

Now, I can't personally speak to how it is now, but from what I've seen of others discussing their experiences, it seems if you miss a day, that other person is suddenly 10 levels higher.

This honestly boggles the mind; how is this beneficial to the server we want? How is it that the meme of rp only exists at 30 has more truth to it nowadays than 4 years ago when you could repeat writs or pvp others to earn the right to grind your brains out in orclands? The truth of it is that if the more convenient route is available, then a majority of people will take that route and those who don't can pat themselves on the back and go "well I don't do that, I do real arrpee" but that doesn't fix the problem.

"but everyone else is rushing to 30 so therefore I must rush to 30"

Yeah, I hear you.

I still feel like leveling has nothing to do with the issue everyone has and again as I said earlier to me it feels like it's more indicative of the server as a whole, not being able to find a group to do things with as a new character has always been something I've kinda struggled with since I started playing on Arelith, I've gotten responses from "Just play skal" to "Oh just keep at it!" I think personally it's just a problem with high player turnaround as one of the most popular NWN PW's . Sometimes you get lucky and you find people to go out and adventure with other times you don't. It's especially a problem on some of the smaller communities in the server like Andunor where leveling solo as something like a caster is made pretty hard even with summons.

I've personally never felt the need to rush straight to 30, but I think it'd be a little silly to ignore the fact that a lot of the module content is geared towards epics and if you want to explore that content you have to level, it isn't a matter of choice. I've always thought it would be nice to perhaps give the lower levels some new content to sink their teeth into, Breedmaster spire was a legitimate godsend and is something I'd like to see repeated on the surface personally with new content whether it be dungeons or otherwise that is specifically geared towards lower pre-epics.

I would also like to speak to the "Everything is gated by rp!" issue as well that you brought up Eira. Some content is indeed gated, we have a rule specifically referencing this FOIG. Now I will grant you that some things are open secrets in the community that are talked about pretty openly IE dweomercrafting. Other things like bard song locations, deck of stars and obscure module locations are gated. You can stumble upon a lot of it on your own, and I absolutely understand why we have FOIG for things, but at the same time you have to admit these are things that are gated behind RP and finding out IC through IC interaction. Many such things are usually well hidden enough that I don't think the average casual player would find them. (Not bard songs, but certain hidden module locations)


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Marsi » Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:50 am

Good Character wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:46 pm

I say we look to a sister-server: Ravenloft. They have an incredibly slow progression speed but arguably better roleplay scene, yet is also not whitelisted.

Ravenloft can afford to obfuscate mechanical progression and PvE entirely because DMs are supposed to be managing your engagement. I don't think it's a useful comparison.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Eira » Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:31 am

I'm not saying some parts of the server are not gated by roleplay, as they most especially are, but that many things are brought up as complaints when they are by design. Yes, you have to roleplay to learn things. Yes, you have to roleplay to gain a reputation and social power. Yes, there are groups who have been in power for years, but they didn't get there just through pvping their way into the positions. None of this is supposed to come without effort. The point is to come up with ways to build story around it.

The main difference between a casual player and noncasual is how fast they hit their goals. But there really doesn't have to be a rush, does there?

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Nurel » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:03 am

Marsi wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:50 am
Good Character wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:46 pm

I say we look to a sister-server: Ravenloft. They have an incredibly slow progression speed but arguably better roleplay scene, yet is also not whitelisted.

Ravenloft can afford to obfuscate mechanical progression and PvE entirely because DMs are supposed to be managing your engagement. I don't think it's a useful comparison.

To my experience PotM roleplay is much more tied to mechanics than it is on Arelith. Granted I am just a mid level character there, I have not experienced their version of an endgame, but:

-You need to RP to gain XP through PvE. Nothing is soloable in the appropriate level range on PotM.
-You need to RP to gain knowledge about crafting, it is essentially FOIG to a very large extent.
-You need to RP to make money. There is no automated passive system in place like offline shops to make you money. And you do need money for /everything/.

All this aside, I would never compare PotM with Arelith. You need to invest 100x the amount of time into Potm if you wish to get a glimpse of the endgame, and you need to be prepared to lose huge chunks of progression on the way, because 1 unfortunate death can cost you whole levels, which take weeks if not months to acquire.
(edit: of course there are ways to be revived without loss of XP, but if noone is there to retrieve your body, you are screwed. Bodies remain on the floor after server reset, and I know of high lvl players who spent IRL weeks wandering around in ghost form trying to lure adventurers into retrieving their bodies from the depths of some challenging dungeon, in order not to lose their levels)

TLDR: It is a wholly different environment than Arelith, in that RPing with other people is an absolute requirement for mechanical progression, and the endgame takes 100s if not 1000s of hours to reach.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Good Character » Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:03 am

Marsi wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:50 am

Ravenloft can afford to obfuscate mechanical progression and PvE entirely because DMs are supposed to be managing your engagement. I don't think it's a useful comparison.

If you're suggesting that the roleplay scene is made better solely by DM involvement, I beg to differ. While admittedly I have not touched Ravenloft in a generous while for the reasons described above by Nurel (e.g. significant investments), I have been involved in 3 DM events during my 4-5 years there. They were all one-off instances, and two were during their "new character" events.

I think Ravenloft and Arelith can absolutely be compared. They should be compared. The two are polar opposites of one another when it comes to leveling, and that reason alone demands comparison. What is each doing right/wrong? For an example, Nurel brings up a good point: it is near impossible to solo anything at the appropriate level, so grouping is encouraged. On Arelith that is the complete opposite; any build on the compendium can solo.

Could raising the difficulty level artificially decelerate the leveling speed while also encouraging players to interact with one another to run dungeons? Back when I played Ravenloft is was moreso a negative point because the peak of the server was roughly 70 players. So, with Arelith's larger playerbase, would that be a good solution?


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Nurel » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:08 pm

Good Character wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:03 am
Marsi wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:50 am

Ravenloft can afford to obfuscate mechanical progression and PvE entirely because DMs are supposed to be managing your engagement. I don't think it's a useful comparison.

If you're suggesting that the roleplay scene is made better solely by DM involvement, I beg to differ. While admittedly I have not touched Ravenloft in a generous while for the reasons described above by Nurel (e.g. significant investments), I have been involved in 3 DM events during my 4-5 years there. They were all one-off instances, and two were during their "new character" events.

This is accurare.

I would argue grouping in PotM is enforced, demanded even, by the systems in place. Hence, the majority of RP that ensues 90% of the time is not fuelled by player's initiative to create narratives, but rather around topics such as "lets get ankheg chittins to make a shield" or, "which buffs do we have, can we take on the Alhoon?". Similarly, large player faction gatherings, to my experience, are glorified musters of adventuring groups. "OK we are all here, new guys introduce yourselves and lets go kill something big". Or, another example, "Listen here, all, we have gathered because faction X has placed an order for 20 bastard swords, and we wish to fill it. So get the minerals and start crafting! Gather again after delivery to receive your share".

This type of RP while 100% welcome and 100% fun, is not plot driven. That is why I believe Arelth and PotM are somewhat apples to oranges when comparing the RP they facilitate, for the most part at least.

Arelith faction gatherings revolve around initiating or advancing ongoing narratives 90% of the time.

I believe these fundamental differences between the two PWs reflect conscious choices in design&development. Arelith /wants/ to be more casual, while Potm /wants/ players to toil and sweat over potions of cure critical, non stackable reagents and painfully repetitive crafting (its literally Anphillia crafting). I would not want Arelith to steer into Potm direction simply because it is by now too far along on the opposite route.

I should mention also though, that IC DM presence is commonplace on PotM, as they manage NPC factions which are very active and take in players too. It is routine though, and rarely takes the form of complex narratives. Sometimes DMs also like to possess PvE monsters to fool around with players, add more spawns, or create mini low stakes events with monster RP.

I daresay that big narratives (like the Ophelia epic or the Amnian war) happen in a similar frequency on Potm as they do on Arelith. Granted, this is what I've gathered from interacting with other players.I was not there for any of these myself, and IDK how big or extensive they were compared to Arelith big narrative events.

Arelith is a modern approach to NwN PWs which allows you to play what you want, right here right now.

However, I should admit, the complete lack of effort required to reach endgame crafting on Arelith is something that feels amiss. I would see it revamped and replaced with a system which requires at least some effort to level up crafting and add a sense of accomplishment to it, and allow players to feel special for their crafts. Currently the only way to achieve this sense of pride is through custom descriptions on your crafts.

Again, a good custom description on a good item is RP quality over mechanics. Another point of merit for Arelith enforcing RP over crafted item properties and crafting levels achieved, which frankly have no RP element to them.

On topic:

Earlier in the thread I made a suggestion to remove XP rewards for writs for characters past lvl20 on Arelith, to make the epic journey last longer. I think this simple regression of the writ system to its previous version "fixes" the pace of levelling altogether. Just don't make the writs repeatable again, only remove the XP rewards for PCs who are 20+.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by God_In_Action » Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:41 pm

Adventure EXP was introduced to make it still feel rewarding whenever you were engaged in RP that doesn't involved killing enemies, right? The idea was that talking to other players shouldn't feel less rewarding than going to a dungeon.

Well, in practice since Adventure EXP is awarded on top of any other EXP earned, it is Adventure EXP which has massively accelerated levelling. For example, with a 20RPR you receive 120 EXP per tick (20 RPR + 100 Adventure EXP), or 1440 EXP per real world hour. Compared to the olden days in which you earned the base RPR per tick (240 EXP per hour) that means that a 20RPR player is gaining 1200 EXP every single hour. That is a 5x increase in EXP per hour.

I suggest that the mistake was in making Adventure EXP count alongside any other source of income. It's not a replacement for EXP lost from not adventuring, it's a steroid on top of adventuring that is received without stopping.

There ought not to be EXP caps, or any winding back of the clock to before Adventure EXP or Writs existed. Instead, Adventure EXP should be made what it was always meant to be- A way to make RP feeling rewarding. Adventure EXP should be granted up to the point for the maximum for that hour gained without any other EXP income source. I.e., a 20 RPR character should receive up to 1200 EXP from Adventure EXP, minus any other source of EXP from killing, writs, etc. If you go and kill some enemies and receive 800 EXP, you will then receive 400 EXP from Adventure EXP in this scenario.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by chris a gogo » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:54 pm

by God_In_Action » 26 Apr 2023 19:41

Adventure EXP was introduced to make it still feel rewarding whenever you were engaged in RP that doesn't involved killing enemies, right? The idea was that talking to other players shouldn't feel less rewarding than going to a dungeon.

Well, in practice since Adventure EXP is awarded on top of any other EXP earned, it is Adventure EXP which has massively accelerated levelling. For example, with a 20RPR you receive 120 EXP per tick (20 RPR + 100 Adventure EXP), or 1440 EXP per real world hour. Compared to the olden days in which you earned the base RPR per tick (240 EXP per hour) that means that a 20RPR player is gaining 1200 EXP every single hour. That is a 5x increase in EXP per hour.

I suggest that the mistake was in making Adventure EXP count alongside any other source of income. It's not a replacement for EXP lost from not adventuring, it's a steroid on top of adventuring that is received without stopping.

There ought not to be EXP caps, or any winding back of the clock to before Adventure EXP or Writs existed. Instead, Adventure EXP should be made what it was always meant to be- A way to make RP feeling rewarding. Adventure EXP should be granted up to the point for the maximum for that hour gained without any other EXP income source. I.e., a 20 RPR character should receive up to 1200 EXP from Adventure EXP, minus any other source of EXP from killing, writs, etc. If you go and kill some enemies and receive 800 EXP, you will then receive 400 EXP from Adventure EXP in this scenario.

Hand on heart am really anti this "suggestion" mostly because I just spent two week walking everywhere role playing with everyone I met doing dungeons and exploring.
So it's punishing my playstyle because you want everyone to get less XP.

There is a very simple thing which Arelith has done , that is to reward role playing with tick XP, that XP is based on your role play rating whatever it is.
Adventure XP is a choice you make about how you want to gain XP you get half XP for the kill but gain delayed full amount so you can level more slowly by choice, it's not put in for standing around Cordor chatting in the rain that's what you get from your RPR.

The issue with Adventure XP is it's become too prolific and no one ever runs out, I for example didn't have it turned on and I have tens of thousands of adventure XP to spare and my character is at the XP cap.
So reducing the amount of adventure XP you gain from kills or writs I think would be fine.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Marsi » Thu Apr 27, 2023 1:32 am

Nurel wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:08 pm

This type of RP while 100% welcome and 100% fun, is not plot driven. That is why I believe Arelth and PotM are somewhat apples to oranges when comparing the RP they facilitate, for the most part at least.

Arelith faction gatherings revolve around initiating or advancing ongoing narratives 90% of the time.

I believe these fundamental differences between the two PWs reflect conscious choices in design&development. Arelith /wants/ to be more casual, while Potm /wants/ players to toil and sweat over potions of cure critical, non stackable reagents and painfully repetitive crafting (its literally Anphillia crafting). I would not want Arelith to steer into Potm direction simply because it is by now too far along on the opposite route.

Agreed. I think the casual RPG elements are crucial to Arelith's success as a roleplaying community. The point of Arelith is to quickly master the mechanics and get to the real stuff -- other players. Every single other PW thinks "heavy roleplaying" means vertically intricate systems and mechanics. I'm here to play with other players, not contend with a complicated but ultimately inert, predictable RPG system.

I've played both here and on POTM through the 2010s. I became very familiar with a kind of snobby attitude many POTMers held towards Arelith -- dismissing it as a site of unserious action RP (ironically, many of the "great" POTM players were originally or were to become Arelith players). On Arelith, yes, the mechanics and setting are simple. It keeps itself out of the way and enables as a result the incredible feats of emergent storytelling I've witnessed over the years. On Ravenloft roleplay often felt shallow to me -- a pastiche. Like we were just cosplaying pre-ordained tropes and setting archetypes. Breaking out of the mould was difficult and received with confusion or animosity. Which is the more casual server here, really?

All of this to say that I don't think we can compare. There is a very large graveyard of "hardcore", low-magic, low-progression PWs and those that remain survive in spite of their mechanics, not because of them.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Khorvale » Thu Apr 27, 2023 6:01 am

Marsi wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 1:32 am
Nurel wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:08 pm

This type of RP while 100% welcome and 100% fun, is not plot driven. That is why I believe Arelth and PotM are somewhat apples to oranges when comparing the RP they facilitate, for the most part at least.

Arelith faction gatherings revolve around initiating or advancing ongoing narratives 90% of the time.

I believe these fundamental differences between the two PWs reflect conscious choices in design&development. Arelith /wants/ to be more casual, while Potm /wants/ players to toil and sweat over potions of cure critical, non stackable reagents and painfully repetitive crafting (its literally Anphillia crafting). I would not want Arelith to steer into Potm direction simply because it is by now too far along on the opposite route.

Agreed. I think the casual RPG elements are crucial to Arelith's success as a roleplaying community. The point of Arelith is to quickly master the mechanics and get to the real stuff -- other players. Every single other PW thinks "heavy roleplaying" means vertically intricate systems and mechanics. I'm here to play with other players, not contend with a complicated but ultimately inert, predictable RPG system.

I've played both here and on POTM through the 2010s. I became very familiar with a kind of snobby attitude many POTMers held towards Arelith -- dismissing it as a site of unserious action RP (ironically, many of the "great" POTM players were originally or were to become Arelith players). On Arelith, yes, the mechanics and setting are simple. It keeps itself out of the way and enables as a result the incredible feats of emergent storytelling I've witnessed over the years. On Ravenloft roleplay often felt shallow to me -- a pastiche. Like we were just cosplaying pre-ordained tropes and setting archetypes. Breaking out of the mould was difficult and received with confusion or animosity. Which is the more casual server here, really?

All of this to say that I don't think we can compare. There is a very large graveyard of "hardcore", low-magic, low-progression PWs and those that remain survive in spite of their mechanics, not because of them.

I totally recognize that experience with Ravenloft, to some degree at least. I'd say Ravenloft is too stifled but IMO Arelith veers a bit too far in the opposite direction, because RP more or less loses any foundation in the mechanical aspects with the ease-of-leveling combined with a bit of "hyper-build mentality". The fact that RP to some degree seems to become the purview of max level characters, combined with the relative ease to get there, means that for example any conflict RP relationship can very quickly devolve into a race to the "top".

It's really just the nature of the beast, it's not like anything major would change with a setting change, since there are already so many epic characters and players with awards in the double or triple digits, but I'd love if the staff maybe put some thought into whether the more or less complete separation of character mechanics and character RP/lore is something they want to perpetuate. Personally I think the current form could be reimagined somehow but I guess there's also years of historical precedence for the current system


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER » Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:21 pm

I think it's a bit fast, personally, but it's not bad or horrible or anything. I actually like longer grinds because it makes getting to 30 (or even just epic levels) feel that much more consequential. Easier leveling seems, imo, to just strengthen the "rp begins at 30" mindset.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by TavernRoleplayer » Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:07 pm

I wish it was faster.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Kenji » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:51 am

We should introduce more ways to earn xp than writs or circle grind- higher “Hub” rest XP ticks, fishing, crafting, mining, gathering, piety gain- things I can think of that should all provide a small amount of xp so that players don’t feel circlegrind or writs are the only way.

With that, however, unlimited releveling needs to be undone and put some limitations on. Put “trainers” at the various settlement arenas that relevel at an exponential cost.

Details and numbers to be determined at a later time. Soon™


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Paint » Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:47 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:51 am

We should introduce more ways to earn xp than writs or circle grind- higher “Hub” rest XP ticks, fishing, crafting, mining, gathering, piety gain- things I can think of that should all provide a small amount of xp so that players don’t feel circlegrind or writs are the only way.

With that, however, unlimited releveling needs to be undone and put some limitations on. Put “trainers” at the various settlement arenas that relevel at an exponential cost.

Details and numbers to be determined at a later time. Soon™

Would this legitimize build guides that ask you to relevel at x level we've typically kept from seeing the light of day on the arelith discord? We've tried to stamp these out specifically because we haven't wanted relevels to be abused, but if there's an in-game system that moderates automatically, it seems that build guides w/ late dips where you get +11-+14 of your AC in the final 3-5 levels might become a lot more tolerable if you can get to x level with one strategy, and then pivot later on without feeling like you're cheating the system to do so.

If this is the intended direction, a small suggestion on my part in this case would be to examine giving that exponential cost some sort of time-based decay, so that characters who are adversely affected by class tweaks that don't change core features or feat progression can relevel to reorient their builds w/o worry about eventually having to circlegrind the coin to do so.

Another alternative to that would be to give out relevel vouchers or tokens to affected classes w/o making them -mandatory-, but the question becomes whether or not people would bank these to use later for entirely unrelated changes.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Kenji » Sun Nov 05, 2023 12:32 am

Paint wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:47 pm

Would this legitimize build guides that ask you to relevel at x level we've typically kept from seeing the light of day on the arelith discord?

It is what it is. Those who know how to optimize builds at each level already utilize the system to their advantage. And those who don't know how to do so remain mechanically oblivious.

The new relevel system compromises between taking relevel away and letting everyone relevel to no limits. There's no sense in gatekeeping such mechanical knowledge, is my take.


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