Arelith

Generally speaking, which attribute do you prefer?

Both.

Dead people don't hit back.

if you kill your enemy, they win. so ac.

AC not even a question.

I can't stand playing piddlydammy characters. Always damage over self-preservation!

THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES, BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE.... OUR FREEDOM *braveheartly charges into demise*

Evolution doesn't help us.

Cockroaches, turtles, snails .. are ancient creatures.

but

so

are

Sharks

Cuchilla wrote:Evolution doesn't help us.

Cockroaches, turtles, snails .. are ancient creatures.

but

so

are

Sharks

Yeah. but the above all have High DR, not AC.

Sharkes (AND CROCODILE!) have a big AB and that is win win for me

There is a number of mechanics that can circumvent AC or render it irrelevant (IGMS spam is probably the most commonly seen example).

There are very few ways of how to ignore a high AB axe to the face however.

-XXX- wrote:There is a number of mechanics that can circumvent AC or render it irrelevant (IGMS spam is probably the most commonly seen example).

There are very few ways of how to ignore a high AB axe to the face however.

igms spam is also set damage at a predictable pace. If you have heal kits, you can heal kit through a lot of the damage, and if you don't mind burning gold, supplement it with heal pots. Unless it's a TF you will outlast them easily.

AB you can ignore with CC and usually not being in melee range.

There are very few ways of how to ignore a high AB axe to the face however.

High AC is a pretty good way.

You can just as well argue that high AB is a good way of countering high AC.
I was trying to outline that AB tends to be slightly less situational than AC.

One way or another, if you want a character that "reks face", AB is a more essential stat than AC.

-XXX- wrote:You can just as well argue that high AB is a good way of countering high AC.

That was precisely my point. There is exactly no case where AB doesn't oppose AC, so it's strange to talk about there being nothing to do about high AB in a conversation comparing building for AB vs building for AC.

AC is my vote. You can rek face longer if you have it.

It depends on the build, but AC generally is better if you want to stay alive. Plenty of ways to build for both, though, so there's not really a reason to have to choose, unless you are considering a build type that notably favors AC or AB, like dex monks or PMs, or AB over AC, like an Arcane Archer. It depends on what roll your build is supposed to occupy. Many of those rolls require and can obtain both.

-XXX- wrote:
There are very few ways of how to ignore a high AB axe to the face however.

How high is the AB? 48? What if my AC is, say, 72? This means your character will only be able to hit me on natural 20s unless he wants to stand there drinking TS potions over and over again. Sounds rather effective to me, especially if I can supplement my 72 AC with high AB and damage of my own. Unless your axe-wielding guy with the high AB has superb AC as well, he's in trouble.

Arcane archers exist.
Smite is a thing.
True strike.
Gajillion ways of making a character flat-footed, etc.
Even more gajillion ways of delivering damage without actually needing to bypass AC

If you think that high AC = MC Hammer, you're in for a big surprise.


But sure, this is more of a playstyle thing...
Anecdotal evidence: characters whose build I focused around offense usually did well in PvP and characters that I built around defense performed better in PvE for me.

-XXX- wrote:Arcane archers exist.
Smite is a thing.
True strike.
Gajillion ways of making a character flat-footed, etc.

Note that smiters get high AC. They'd be even worse than they already are if they didn't. Even then, they excel in one niche role but otherwise have rather glaring weaknesses, which is why they are not top-tier in PvP builds. AA's are fragile, and will usually lose in PvP to a melee-er who has built for AC. Smiter-Paladins are better against evil-aligned foes, but still, there are high-AC melee builds that can weather them out, not to mention take advantage of their huge wind-up time.

Even more gajillion ways of delivering damage without actually needing to bypass AC

Yes, play a wizard or a Warlock. Are we talking about melee builds here?

If you think that high AC = MC Hammer, you're in for a big surprise.

If anecdotal evidence is in play, then I've been building towards high AC builds recently and find that they perform better across the board--if you also build them for high AB and damage in addition to high AC (saves are also nice). They will perform better against a build that just goes for AB and Damage, unless the person playing them is unskilled. There is a logical explanation for this: you have, not just decent AC, but superb AC, and are also a reliable or even excellent source of damage.

One-handed WMs do very well, and are considered top-tier in part because of the sheer damage they do. But note that they sacrifice some of the WM's full offensive potential in order to use a shield. Two-handed WMs, who deal significantly more damage at the expense of AC, are considered an unviable choice for most PvP. They usually die too quickly when they are face to face with a build that has both AC and AB. Indeed, a build that has privileged AC at a somewhat significant expense to AB and damage, like PMs or e-dodge monks, unless played utterly incompetently, will present a significant problem for a 2H WM.

But sure, this is more of a playstyle thing...

It partially depends on what role you want for your build, which in turn often comes down to what kind of character you want to play. (Of course, I often select a build first and then choose a character for it, making minor tweaks to the build if they suit the character; there's nothing wrong with this, and I've played a lot of fun and interesting characters with their own fascinating stories this way). If you want to play a worshiper of Uthgardt, Barbarian is a logical choice, and thus you won't be building towards AC. So, is the poll asking whether you like to play for AC or AB? Or is it asking which builds generally fare better mechanically in combat? The former question can be fun to talk about, but the latter question allows for the possibility of an objectively right answer: builds that invest in AC, even if at the expense of some AB and damage, do better in both PvP and PvE. Barbarians are a notable exception since they factor in some different mechanics than other melee builds. But there are also a number of AC-investing builds that easily match, and in some cases outmatch, barbarians.

As far as mechanics go, the most effective melee builds focus in both AC and AB (and damage, which wasn't in this poll). All of them can achieve very respectable AB; if one has high AC and the other does not, however, this gives a tremendous disadvantage to the one who does not.

To the best of my recollection, there is only one top-tier melee build that foregoes AC, which is the Barbarian. That's pretty much the only exception. All of the rest of them either build for both AC and AB, or, in two cases that I can think of (dex monk and melee PM), sacrifice a significant amount of AB and damage output for AC.

i too debate mechanics in Bashagain's jokey poll threads

I am curious what results you expected to get, when you didn't spesify what niche are we talking about..
There is a big difference between sneak melee, melee, caster melee, stun monk melee, ranged etc etc etc and AC vs AB is different in each schenario.

In general one vs one is a one thing, group is another..
Standard melee AC builds are more well rounded, but if someone with basic healing kit can easily out heal your dpr on this AC build and you feel like a balet dancer punching a wooden board...consider reroll.
Imho, of course.

You can't kill something if you can't hit it.

And you always hit on a 20, meaning volume of attacks pretty much always beats accuracy.

To crit on 20 you need to pass the AC on second roll.
Run the NwN damage calculator and check build1: many(Dual or/and monk) low ab attacks vs build2: 3-5 relevant ab build vs high ac.

BegoneThoth wrote:And you always hit on a 20, meaning volume of attacks pretty much always beats accuracy.

It is kinda misliding to say the above..unless the ab difference is relatively minor.
Or both cases need 20 to hit.

It's simply that you can find players and mobs with an ac of 70+, and in those fights only your first attack will have >5% chance to hit, if you also have >50 ab.

And in these situations (bosses, well built players, any expertise stalling strats) it's better to have extra chances at that 5% swing. So turn on flurry or power attack if you're only hitting on a 20, as the higher ac makes your ab irrelevant.

BegoneThoth wrote:And you always hit on a 20, meaning volume of attacks *pretty much always* beats accuracy.

BegoneThoth wrote:It's simply that *you can find* players and mobs with an ac of 70+, and in those fights only your first attack will have >5% chance to hit, if you also have >50 ab.

And in these situations (bosses, well built players, any expertise stalling strats) it's better to have extra chances at that 5% swing. So turn on flurry or power attack if you're only hitting on a 20, as the higher ac makes your ab irrelevant.

All I tried to say is that "pretty much always" is a bit misleading when someone with less mechanical experience reads it :p.

P.C
Builds that use AB to deliver damage usually count on one or more of the three below that bring their AB into the required AC range:
1. Temp AB increase.
2. Temp lowering target AC.
3. One of the ways to make the target flat-footed.

But, yeah, swinging more at 5% hit chance is better ).

The AB of this thread can only hit the AC of this thread on a nat 20. Solid.

Opustus wrote:I can't stand playing piddlydammy characters. Always damage over self-preservation!

THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES, BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE.... OUR FREEDOM *braveheartly charges into demise*

BUT THEY DID TAKE OUR FREEDOM! :Kensai.: D: