Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

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Are Arelith’s areas getting too big?

Yes
28
21%
No
74
55%
Mixed Feelings
32
24%
 
Total votes: 134

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Kenji
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Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Kenji » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:42 pm

Are Arelith's areas becoming bigger a positive thing or a negative thing to your personal experience?

This is a poll for those who wish to remain anonymous but still somehow become part of the statistics in regards to this thread:
Discussion: Arelith’s Getting Too Big?

Please direct most of your discussion feedback to that thread!

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Nitro » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:23 pm

I've disliked large areas ever since the launch of EE causing memory leaks and failing to unload assets on area swap.

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Revelations » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:12 pm
A sizeable group of players have said they enjoy the larger wilderness, I have said I will not reverse the approach, or remake areas that were a significant effort, and have explained, at length, my reasons, of which the HAK size topic plays a tiny part.

With increased player numbers and an active staff of more than 30, Arelith has very much evolved into a full time job for me, I love it, of course, but will absolutely follow my creative vision in content I produce for it (and encourage other devs to do the same).

I dont expect everyone to like it, but they can, especially if they choose to play here, at very least, respect that is absolutely our right. Constructive feedback is welcome, but posts that amount to "I personally don't like what you're doing, and so you should change it." really need to stop now.
Following this statement, frankly, I find this poll rather poor taste.
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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Kenji » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:42 am

Revelations wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm
Irongron wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:12 pm
A sizeable group of players have said they enjoy the larger wilderness, I have said I will not reverse the approach, or remake areas that were a significant effort, and have explained, at length, my reasons, of which the HAK size topic plays a tiny part.

With increased player numbers and an active staff of more than 30, Arelith has very much evolved into a full time job for me, I love it, of course, but will absolutely follow my creative vision in content I produce for it (and encourage other devs to do the same).

I dont expect everyone to like it, but they can, especially if they choose to play here, at very least, respect that is absolutely our right. Constructive feedback is welcome, but posts that amount to "I personally don't like what you're doing, and so you should change it." really need to stop now.
Following this statement, frankly, I find this poll rather poor taste.
How is it done in poor taste? If anything, the poll certainly showed Irongron's statement to be a grounded one rather than a defensive statement, and assumptions such as the following statement should be avoided while letting the populace speak for itself:
I do think the vast majority of players dislike the large area approach, admittedly I don't talk to everyone. I think that's also mirrored in this thread.
I highly suggest people leave the drama out of this thread and let the poll do its job of showing clarity. The intention of this poll is not to cause offense to anyone, but to simply show tangible numbers rather than some assumptions.

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Dr. B » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:28 pm

The yes crowd got pwnd. :lol:

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Revelations » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:53 pm

tldr

Creating content isn't a democratic process. Feedback is cool. If creators stick to their vision after lengthy discussion, it's not our place to continue and question that.

long read anyway

Because the outcome of the poll doesn't matter.

To even start one after the creative lead said that discussions about this matter are moot because he'll -rightfully so- follow his own vision creating content for the server implies that it would hold any weight against that.

What if the results would have been different? Nothing would have changed. You wouldn't get any areas downsized due to it. All it would have led to would be our volunteer admin being potentially alienated by the data showing that the apparent majority of players is against what he does.

I'm pretty sure you didn't create this thread out of entitlement, and I've said my part. Didn't want to bring drama here, so bye :)
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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Kenji » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:39 am

The whole point of this poll is to let people know that assumptions and statistics are two different things. Same mistake for you to assume that you speak for Irongron himself when things might not be as clear cut as you assume, even if you may be right in this case. (Or wrong, until Irongron clarifies it himself)

How you perceive this poll as an intention to shift any of his decision is something that baffles me. Besides, there are cases where certain dev's artistic decisions have been reverted due to popularity feedback (take the recent stoneskin VFX for a minor example).

To think that a different result from the poll would alienate our staff team is something that is in the realm of ridicule. It shows that perhaps there is a certain concern to be addressed among the playerbase. We can take the old ammo bundle to ammo template change for example, folks did not like it at first shallow glance, but the ammo template system remained in place even with multiple cry-outs for reverting back to the old system at the time. It was through the staff team's patience and some people's investment in time to further delve into the system to help address the change in place.

I imagine the same is being done here with that feedback thread.

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Irongron » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:46 am

Kenji wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:39 am
The whole point of this poll is to let people know that assumptions and statistics are two different things. Same mistake for you to assume that you speak for Irongron himself when things might not be as clear cut as you assume, even if you may be right in this case. (Or wrong, until Irongron clarifies it himself)

How you perceive this poll as an intention to shift any of his decision is something that baffles me. Besides, there are cases where certain dev's artistic decisions have been reverted due to popularity feedback (take the recent stoneskin VFX for a minor example).

To think that a different result from the poll would alienate our staff team is something that is in the realm of ridicule. It shows that perhaps there is a certain concern to be addressed among the playerbase. We can take the old ammo bundle to ammo template change for example, folks did not like it at first shallow glance, but the ammo template system remained in place even with multiple cry-outs for reverting back to the old system at the time. It was through the staff team's patience and some people's investment in time to further delve into the system to help address the change in place.

I imagine the same is being done here with that feedback thread.
First of all, there is a world of difference between reverting a spell change, or something to arrow bundles - which is done in a moment, to areas, which in these cases were months of work. Some, like the new Soulhaven were especially hard to make, and so, sure, reading that some people hate them, or expect me to remake is hard - that's only human.

I was warned about a culture of entitlement from the moment I started doing this. Since then I've remade almost the entire server, including making the overwhelming majority of Andunor and the underdark. The new city, now takes all my free time - and I have very little at the moment due to being locked down looking after my family.

But concern is not the same as entitlement, which is always most visible when a few players fail, or unwilling to recognise the extent of the effort this all takes, and feel comfortable in either asking for more work, or insisting I do it their way.

Still, I'm not fragile, and despite having my motivation to work on anything significantly sapped by this, I will continue, as I always have, to make the server I personally wish to see and ultimately, create.

In regard to the specifics of this topic (once again), I should clarify, for those that may not have noticed, that there are actually a few different critiques going on here, and not necessarily related:

First is simply the size of individual areas. While some new ones have been large I dont think they are the biggest on Arelith (those are in the Ud I think). The criticism here has three parts -

stability, as mentioned by Nitro above, got way worse post EE. Had I known that was going to happen I would never had made Cordor as it currently is. Still, this has got better at least, and isnt actually an issue at all with the newer areas as the tilesets they are built with are just far superior, and generally quick to load given they require so little dressing, compared to, say, the Earthkin Village, which required perhaps a thousand placeables (and about 3 weeks work). Nevertheless when it comes to problematic performance I have a great deal of sympathy with this critique.


The second two criticisms of large areas, I admit, I just plainly dont agree with.

The first, 'I don't meet people to RP with', I simply don't think an issue - because Arelith is still very small, because the routes between major POIs themselves are still very linear, because I still very much have 'hubs' designed and functioning, and, perhaps most of all, because after playing on Arelith for 15 years I've barely ever seen any significant 'on the road' rp - 95% of the time people travelling are on their way somewhere and walk straight past, even if you try to engage them. Want to rp with a stranger? Try a hub. If you're one of the very few who seek to do so in the wild? I'm not going to build the module for that.

The next criticism levelled here is that they are bare of content. Well, as stated elsewhere they leave room for houses/castles etc to be built, but even if not. There are dungeons everywhere, a ton of rare encounters, and a level of visual detail that is mostly absent in older areas. None of these are deserts.

Finally, there is a totally different area of concern some people were pointing at in the original thread, and that concerns just how much wilderness we want to see between towns.

Long journey times and the ability to get lost isn't determined by the size of individual areas; whether it is half a dozen small ones or a single huge, the effect is the same. This really comes down to 'how far am I prepared to walk?', and I get this is a matter of taste. There are many players who aren't remotely interested in admiring the view, or any kind of realistic setting.


For those whose focus is almost entirely upon either grinding for levels in a dungeon, or RPing in a hub, the journey between rp/grind spot is simply 'dead time', breeding both frustration and resentment towards myself for inflicting on them due to my weird, selfish, and weirdly tragic obsession with 'doing pretty things with the toolset', and then having the gall to expect them to walk through it A THOUSAND TIMES.

As I said right at the beginning, if I'm going to spend thousands of hours every year building Arelith; yes, I absolutely do have the gall, not only because I love that aspect of NwN, but because I know many others do also. If you don't like it? Use a portal, but don't for one minute expect me to change how I spend my free time on your say so.

I am very keen to get the new city released, but even so will likely be cutting back my time in the toolset for a while, for now at least. Reading through my above diatribe might give the impression I love these debates - i really don't. In the meantime, by all means vote on the subject.

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by dominantdrowess » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:35 am

I love the artist's mindset. Practical concerns addressed.. but maintaining his own artistic integrity and vision. As someone who has often built and lead self-funded large-scale roleplaying projects? This answer really speaks to me because of how often, I personally, have been overwhelmed by the demands of large numbers of people.

Ultimately, it wasn't an inability to keep up with the projects, or not enjoying creating ... but my own inability to cope with, empathize and classify the nature of various people's expectations upon what is effectively functional art.

That you can separate, and understand these things in a perspective that makes me realize things about my own past is ... breath-taking to me, Irongron. Holy crap, I had so much stress and trauma associated with my own past artistic impulses with server projects - in NWNs, Second Life, Conan Exiles, Chat-based Roleplays and Ultima Online that ... I kind of stop doing large-scale creativity for years at a time.

Absolutely amazing and artistically inspirational insights. Absolutely floored.

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by Kenji » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:10 pm

@Irongron
While reverting changes for the ammo system back then would have been as fast as a flick of a switch, the effort and development time from YCE would’ve been wasted. This is same as the point you were trying to convey.

According to the polls, it would seem many of us like the direction of the area designs you’re making for the server, myself included.

But if this “culture of entitlement” is as pervasive as it sounds, then it needs to be addressed eventually. Not just for this specific occasion, but from what was observed in the past and what is to come in the future, I’d really hate to see the staff team discouraged and bullied from the minor but loud few dissidents (Probably a poor choice of word).

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by satan » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:01 am

Love the big areas with the pretty grass and trees and actual rolling hills.


Me and a buddy spent about 5 hours /walking/ around exploring it.

It was the most fun I've had in arelith for a while.
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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:06 am

I love the large and wild areas. I especially enjoy how no one square of each area feels like a filler; every part of every area is detailed and has a purpose.

One thing that keeps Arelith so fresh for me is returning to an area after years with a different character and seeing that it has evolved and become overgrown. It makes Arelith feel like part of a living and breathing world.

Look at the Earthling village, as an example. It started out as teeny Fort Bendir and has since expanded and grown, and the surrounding environment around the Trade Way is so easy to get lost in now, which I absolutely love. But I'm just one fan of explorative roleplay.

Irongron and the teams working on the areas should absolutely be proud of their quality work =)


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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by matheusgraef » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:57 pm

To me, if you don't like the passionate hard work the devs are putting into this server, you're very welcome to leave. It's just incredibly selfish and pety to complain about all these amazing new areas. To quote Irongron: if you don't like walking, use a portal.

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Re: Arelith’s Areas Getting Too Big?

Post by NauVaseline » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:38 am

Nitro wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:23 pm
I've disliked large areas ever since the launch of EE causing memory leaks and failing to unload assets on area swap.

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