Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

[Aradin]

The blind eye of RNG knows no favour and this, I think, is as it should be.

Agreed. To be clear I really like the idea of being rewarded for great RP. I like the concept of both the RPR system and the rewards system. It's nice to feel appreciated for the effort you put in, especially when that effort helps other players have a fun time. But I think Arelith has way too many players for any kind of 'hands-on' system to work. Even if every DM (who are unpaid volunteers) adhered without fault to a universally agreed-upon gold standard of RP (which doesn't exist), they would have to spend every waking minute monitoring the server to catch the nuances of everyone's roleplay. And our already-hardworking DMs are volunteers, so...nope.
The practical response is an automated system, and I think that system should be RNG. Measuring something qualitative like someone's roleplay is such a subjective matter, and people will game the system no matter how it's engineered. Let's be real: if the devs implemented a system where # of lines said contributed to the possibility of getting a major reward, do you really think that powergrinders wouldn't just stop circling the Orclands and instead sit inside in a corner, spamming chat boxes?
People will game the system. Every time, without fail. Some players are just like that. A different mechanical system won't change their behavior outside the game, it will just change it within Arelith.

You can't cheese RNG. It's not perfect, but it's fair.

On the matter of people powergrinding to churn out rewards: in principle, yes, that is not what the reward system is for and I would prefer they didn't do it.
In practice though these players don't affect my enjoyment of the game in any way since they're just running around doing PvE content. It's real easy to ignore them. I don't even know they're there most of the time. So I'm whatever about it, they can enjoy Arelith the way they want and I can enjoy it the way I want and we're not at odds with each other.

[Good Character]

Automated despite how much I hate the system given I have no time to spend grinding.

The only switch up I could see being agreeable is allowing total time played on the character replace levels earned given that a good, well-roleplayed character with a rich story takes time. A lot of great characters never even get past level 21 despite how much time they've spent playing.

Someone would have to work out the math so a ratio could be determined that way the more prominent of the two (i.e. time played vs. character levels) is used when rolling for an award.

[Glowing Mushroom]

i think the notion of feeling like you're owed a 5% because a lot of people like you is a dangerous one

it's very possible that just as many people don't appreciate your rp, but they're not in your echo chamber so you won't hear it. this essentially suggests making 5%'s a matter of popularity contests.

having a big faction, saying a lot of lines, and creating a lot of items are all things that are easily gamed, and quantity does not mean quality. it's really not a step up.

5%'s need to remain as RNG as possible.

also, the server's already dangerously leaning towards becoming a zoo already. we don't need even more majors around.

As for the variables I've introduced, these are all up for discussion of course. Things like lines, emotes, faction size (whether you own it or are a part of it), items made, etc., are only some ideas of what could otherwise be many. I would love to hear what you might suggest, if asked to brainstorm otherwise than RNG.

I've been careful to word this entire post as not to suggest the feeling of being "owed" anything.

That's not what I said, nor is it what I believe.

I do believe, however, that players who go above and beyond to create RP deserve a better shot at a rare reward.

Especially since many of these characters do not participate in much PvE, if at all, and will never reach the threshold of being high enough to even qualify for a 5%. They might not even get to epics.

Please reread my post because it seems like you may have misinterpreted what I've gone over if you think I'm suggesting to make 5%'s a popularity contest based on what people think they are owed. That is not at all what I said, nor is it what I'm going for, and to phrase it as such is severely misconstrued. I can reword my original post if you think it's necessary, however.

There's no easy answer when it comes to a reward system. Do you reward pve, do you reward rp, do you reward both? It's weird. But I think in his current state it needs tweaking. Purely RNG with a small factor of gold to increase chances is a system that rewards PvE exclusively and it is why people can powergrind over and over again until they get the 5% they want. Introducing a partially automated system on top of this with other contributing factors could help balance the PvE award aspects to learn more towards the RP aspects.

A complicated system would be difficult but a complicated system is probably necessary to answer both.

Nevertheless, I am very glad to see all of the conversations being sparked because of this! It is necessary to have. Back in the day, special requests were literally done by Jjjerm on a 1d20 roll. Hence the 5% now. It's been this way for a long time and I think it's time for a change.

[Zavandar]

I've been careful to word this entire post as not to suggest the feeling of being "owed" anything.

That's not what I said, nor is it what I believe.

I do believe, however, that players who go above and beyond to create RP deserve a better shot at a rare reward.

how do you meaningfully distinguish the difference between "owed" and "deserve"?

[Glowing Mushroom]

I've been careful to word this entire post as not to suggest the feeling of being "owed" anything.

That's not what I said, nor is it what I believe.

I do believe, however, that players who go above and beyond to create RP deserve a better shot at a rare reward.

how do you meaningfully distinguish the difference between "owed" and "deserve"?

Your boss gives you a $100 loan and asks you to pay it back in two weeks. It's been three. Your boss is "owed" $100.

For the past three weeks, you have gone into your job early, stayed late, busted your butt to go above and beyond with your work you put into it and you've asked for nothing in return. You could argue that you may "deserve" an extra $100.

It's not saying, "I am owed this" vs. "I deserve this." It's recognizing whom amongst the players may deserve it. Not pointing a finger and saying, "This guy is owed this."

Comparatively for Roleplay, an individual who creates content, encourages others, includes others, generates fun and exciting conflict, builds lore, and so on and so forth, for the sake of the RP and nothing else - May "deserve" a better shot at a 5%.

I don't think grinding to epics and rolling for a 5% should be taken away. But it should be tweaked, perhaps made more difficult. Contributing factors that are both automated and manual can go into play to reward the Roleplay aspect of things as well, not just the PvE.

[Zavandar]

this just seems like a euphemism/dysphemism for the same thing

both words could be replaced with entitled

[Anatida]

The current system incentivizes grinding up and rolling characters who have no stake in relationships, their own RP development, or the world. This does happen. If you don't see them it's because they're out there grinding, making zero meaningful impact on the world.

I never said it doesn't happen but everyone talks about it like it is a huge pervasive issue and I don't believe that to be the case. I just think if you ask around, fewer people are doing this than are assumed.

At any rate, the award change, whenever it comes, will deal with targeting these types of characters.

Literally every player I know has done it. Some more than once. Even I startred one purely for this purpose, but I couldn't stomach the grind past the low teens and abandoned it.

[Glowing Mushroom]

this just seems like a euphemism/dysphemism for the same thing

both words could be replaced with entitled

It's about recognition. Not being entitled. Sorry, I don't know how else to explain it and I apologize for not being able to help you understand where I'm trying to come from. We can agree to disagree, of course!

[stoneheart-]

It's about recognition. Not being entitled. Sorry, I don't know how else to explain it and I apologize for not being able to help you understand where I'm trying to come from. We can agree to disagree, of course!

Y I K E S. That's the most condescending thing I've had the displeasure of reading in a while.

Arelith isn't a job. The DMs/Admins aren't your bosses and you aren't a worker. We're all playing here to have fun. You don't get rewarded for doing the thing you do to have fun. Awards for rolling your character are just a "nice, thanks for playing", like a cherry on top of the sundae you already enjoyed eating. There is plenty good to get with a normal award now, so I have no idea where the idea that rolling your character and getting one is somehow undesirable.

I can say though that preferential treatment toward "established, roleplay-creating" PCs is not desirable in the least because it is always weighed with personal bias of whoever is on the team at the time. In the past, before the creation of the automated deletion-award system only friends of the server admin seemed to get 5% awards. Weird how that happens.

I get why you feel this way, but true pseudo-randomness is the only way that the system remains fair.

[Glowing Mushroom]

It's about recognition. Not being entitled. Sorry, I don't know how else to explain it and I apologize for not being able to help you understand where I'm trying to come from. We can agree to disagree, of course!

Y I K E S. That's the most condescending thing I've had the displeasure of reading in a while.

Arelith isn't a job. The DMs/Admins aren't your bosses and you aren't a worker. We're all playing here to have fun. You don't get rewarded for doing the thing you do to have fun. Awards for rolling your character are just a "nice, thanks for playing", like a cherry on top of the sundae you already enjoyed eating. There is plenty good to get with a normal award now, so I have no idea where the idea that rolling your character and getting one is somehow undesirable.

I can say though that preferential treatment toward "established, roleplay-creating" PCs is not desirable in the least because it is always weighed with personal bias of whoever is on the team at the time. In the past, before the creation of the automated deletion-award system only friends of the server admin seemed to get 5% awards. Weird how that happens.

I get why you feel this way, but true pseudo-randomness is the only way that the system remains fair.

I am not being condescending, sorry for the misunderstanding. If I am not doing a good job explaining my position, then that is fine, and we can agree to disagree. That's literally all I said.

[Curve]

It's about recognition. Not being entitled.

Recognition is RPR. This gives faster leveling through extra xp per tick and -elc.

Literally every player I know has done it. Some more than once. Even I startred one purely for this purpose, but I couldn't stomach the grind past the low teens and abandoned it.

Let it be said that if I was in ooc communication with people who were making characters to grind them to 26th and not contributing to RP (whatever that means, I am legit not convinced an observing eye could tell the difference) I would tell them they were doing themselves and the server a disservice and unfriend them. I think you should call your friends out. Mine don't do this.

[Xerah]

Let it be said that if I was in ooc communication with people who were making characters to grind them to 26th and not contributing to RP (whatever that means, I am legit not convinced an observing eye could tell the difference) I would tell them they were doing themselves and the server a disservice and unfriend them. I think you should call your friends out. Mine don't do this.

Same, bud.

There is a difference between playing an alt that is eventually decided that, meh, I don't care for this character and roll it. Maybe that's what you're referring to. It seems like a huge waste of time to go through this grind process because you want a character with a tail or something. I've played NWN Forgotten Realms characters for 16+ years and I still can come up with too many ideas for just base races.

The only one I explicitly know was doing this was [REDACTED] who would circle grind goblins and was able to get a roll done in less than 30 hours of playtime. That was the extreme case and most 5% were still under the approval of the DM team, so all that rolling wasn't going give him the reward he wanted anyway.

[strong yeet]

Personally, I'd prefer an idyllic world where a reasonable amount of character turnover exists without the ugly lure of special races.

Sadly, this world is not idyllic in either case, as there is an unreasonable amount of character turnover (too much, or too little, depending on who you mean) and what exists is for the most part spurred on by simple boredom, or by the shiny-shine of tedious, but Special, gimmick races, rather than satisfying narrative purpose or conclusion.

Things are much, much better now that the custom 5% option no longer exists, which I maintain as one of the best things to happen to Arelith in a very long time.

With that said, I don't feel like the award system needs any particular attention. A transition from character level to metrics like time investment will lead to obese vaults and idling, which I think are far more deleterious than sweaty weirdos doing Orclands one hundred too many times. Worse even would be the swap to purely objective measures to entirely subjective ones. Such systems often read quite nice, but are in practice more akin to nepotistic nightmares that create a pseudo-aristocracy of grimy newcomers playing boring (and, oftentimes, frequently underpowered by comparison) vanilla races and an "elite" playing a strange variety of deep sourcebook-dives and every half-XYZ you can imagine.

My thought in summary: Any fresh-faced player who decides to delete his first character should have as much a chance to receive the turnover bonus as a beloved and long-standing member of the community, given the identical conditions of character level, time investment, or just about any other objective metric you can imagine.

EDIT: Oh, and as one might infer from the rest of my post, I most certainly think the idea of a guaranteed 5% is ridiculous.

[The GrumpyCat]

I think everyone should get a shot at a 5% pc.

But I think that those who roleplay well should be given a bigger/quicker shot.

I think that Glowing Mushroom is right - that we don't reward good rpers enough.

Why?

Because XP means very little now - 50%+ of the time I see good rp? RP I want to award? It's from level 30's. So I can't give them any xp.

Oh sure after a reasonable measure of time, with other DM agreement and if their rp remains of a similar quarlity we could raise their rpr, but that depends on a lot and only takes you to a certain point.

A personal quest or such depends very much on my rl time allowance

Items/Gold don't make sense.

So having some new way we can, on case by case basis, drop a little 'wow that was good rp/good behavior/good whatever' to someone is, great!

Ultimatly nothing we bring in will be perfect, and I don't know if what I hope will happen ever will - it's a long process... but I do want to bring in changes if only so we as DMs can give out nice things more.

[Morgy]

Whilst it's nice to be -recognised- as doing some good RP, I honestly am not bothered about raising my XP per hour by a tiny amount. As Grumpy says, XP becomes irrelevant all too quickly anyway. When I'm really enjoying a plot/interaction/relationship with another character, my mind is anywhere but RPR/XP. The best reward is feedback from others along the lines of 'Wow, that was really fun. Thank you!'. On the odd occasion I've received that kind of response, it feels good man.

RPR would be nice for increasing your chance at getting a higher reward, but then we would still have the issue of players being disadvantaged by playtimes/just being missed.

The current system is not perfect, but it allows a chance at picking an unusual race/class whilst not flooding the server with things that are supposed to be rare.

[Zavandar]

i agree with the flooding issue as well. there are so many characters now with wings, tails, horns, wild colors, etc.

frequently, one can walk into a city square and see more demi-races than regular races.

I can understand time played counting towards getting a 5%, but I don't think that should come at the expense of being able to roll 26+ for a chance either. ideally, both would factor in.

"Good rp" is such a subjective thing. I am sure not even the DMs can agree on what that is. it's also much easier to make an impression on DMs and players with an active discord presence, which isnt something everyone is into. Also, just because people are praised doesnt mean they're doing something that is healthy for the server as a whole or even enjoyable for a lot of people.

I think that claiming anything other than a fully random system won't turn into a popularity contest is naive at best and disingenuous at worst. I know it sounds cynical, but cliques that already do so much back-patting will turn into "hey don't forget to recommend me so I can get that 5%".

[godhand-]

For the past three weeks, you have gone into your job early, stayed late, busted your butt to go above and beyond with your work you put into it and you've asked for nothing in return. You could argue that you may "deserve" an extra $100.

This is a fallacy. You don't deserve sh--. You went into work, knowing the contract you have with the workplace and worked under those conditions because your paid to do that job. If you feel you truly deserve that extra $100 you would either - Asssk for something in return: IE, speak up, OR, spend the time to find a new job that matches what you value your time at.

This is much like Arelith - you know the conditions, you chose to come here and play. Arelith, unlike a job, has alot more freedom with what we can do and how we can approach it. Who are we to judge someone elses idea of fun and a good time?

You may -love- spending hours building a faction and making in-world placeables that stay for generations.... Thats fantastic and beautiful and you'll get your rewards in rpr and DM time and all the other nice things that come.
Some people just want to switch off mentally and mindlessly grind some mobs with an audiobook playing..

Now, as far as the "issue" of people grinding to 26 for rewards.... It takes probably around 80-90 hours of gametime to hit 30 if thats your soul focus, no RP no nothing, and you know the optimal routes... We''ll call it 70 hours to 26.

AS far as i'm concerned, If you want to waste spend 3 full days of your life for a 5% chance at something special, Go for it buddy. Thats anywhere from 3 to 60 If not more days of your life spent circle grinding.... Props. Keep doing it.

You do you.

[The GrumpyCat]

See here's my argument...

Some people just want to switch off mentally and mindlessly grind some mobs with an audiobook playing..

This is 100% absolutly A.OK by me. I've done this myself (well maybe without the audiobook) a little, sometimes you just want to turn off and gather xp! I've no issue with this at all! These people should definatly be allowed to do that.

Arelith is (at least supposed to be) a relitivly immersive roleplay server.

So what we surely want to work at is keeping it that way.

Part of that is yes, mechanics. But another part is encouraging that sort of mindset from the players.

This doesn't mean that we should punish folk who run around grinding neccesarly - but at present the current system REWARDS people who run around grinding. They're not rewarding people who help provide a fun immersive roleplay experience. And you cannot judge that via pure mechanics.

So if we want a server wherein people are encouraged to provide fun, immersive roleplay expernces - we need to find ways of encouraging that. Now before people start screaming incoherently - I'll entirely agree that this CANNOT be done purely manually or by Dms. There also NEEDS to be a mechanical option there - so that those who get missed by us, who are at bad time zones ect - can get their shot.

This may lead to an issue with too many 5%/wierd stuff - and that's something we'll need to consider and adress.

But as far as I'm awear- whilst Arelith does cater to a variety of styles- at it's core it's supposed to be an immersive roleplay server, a place where people have fun together. And that's what I think we should be rewarding and encouraging.

[Zavandar]

just let time played be an alternative to rolling at 26+, though it should a pretty substantial number imo.

I think at the core, it is supposed to be a time sink. Time played would provide an option to let people spend that time how they'd like, and also requires minimal oversight

[stoneheart-]

The issue with "contribution"-based awards is and will always be, who decides? Who decides that the roleplay of the big names that everyone knows is worth more than those who play more minor roles or choose to do their own thing? !ho is going to be the one to tell a player who tries no less hard to put themselves out there and roleplay that their RP is worth less than another player's simply because they choose not to be in faction or settlement leadership? Who is going to say that you deserve a bigger chance at it because of the cross you CHOSE to bear?

Not to mention, such a system would create a cancerous atmosphere in the playerbase. Faction leadership and popularity would be equated with a better chance at awards, which I don't think is a good thing in any stretch of the imagination. Do faction leadership, be a well-known figure because it's what you love to do and what makes sense for your character. Don't do it because you think it will make you more deserving of something if you do.

Good roleplay is its own reward, and it's the gift that keeps on giving.

[Lexx]

I like this poll selection. I voted fully automated. Either that or keep it as is. I feel those are the two fairest options overall.

[The GrumpyCat]

Good roleplay is its own reward, and it's the gift that keeps on giving.

If this is true (and to an extent I believe it is) then why worry if someone else is getting something nice a bit quicker than you? You're having fun, that's what counts!

If it's not true, then it's a good idea to have some manner of rewarding it.

[Kalopsia]

Personally I think that grandfathered classes/paths/races and/or awards spent on characters should also have some impact on their award rolls. Otherwise such special characters are simply going to be hoarded indefinitely.

I know that if I ever managed to play a major award character, I'd shelve rather than rolling unless I find a particularly shiny opportunity to end the char's arc. But I do realize that such an approach is not ideal and contributes to the aforementioned observation of unusual characters being increasingly common.

That's why, in order to get over my personal habit of shelving, I've recently rolled an old kensai & normal award character and an elven genasi (currently worth a greater award), both fully geared and level 30, hoping for NWN RNG to finally work in my favor and give me at least one greater award to be used on a future concept. However, both turned into yet more normal awards and fairly bitter memories about rolling.
(I have seven of those awards now despite spending them quite liberally, so it will take a few months before my next attempt :D)

Edit: I also hope this didn't come across as salty! It's not meant to. I'm merely trying to illustrate the thoughts leading to my initial suggestion :)

[stoneheart-]

Good roleplay is its own reward, and it's the gift that keeps on giving.

If this is true (and to an extent I believe it is) then why worry if someone else is getting something nice a bit quicker than you? You're having fun, that's what counts!

If it's not true, then it's a good idea to have some manner of rewarding it.

I do have a 30 rpr and am one of those "contributing players", whatever that means. I have everything to gain from such a system as proposed, but I'm still against it.

I am not worried about who gets 5%s and how fast. What I am worried about is the truly toxic and cancerous attitude it would create. Already in this very thread you have people talking about how some players "deserve" more than other players perceived as average or lesser.

Favoritism of this variety is a disease, and partially because it seems benevolent and even righteous, but only RNG is justice.

[Good Character]

That's why, in order to get over my personal habit of shelving, I've recently rolled an old kensai & normal award character and an elven genasi (currently worth a greater award), both fully geared and level 30, hoping for NWN RNG to finally work in my favor and give me at least one greater award to be used on a future concept. However, both turned into yet more normal awards and fairly bitter memories about rolling.
(I have seven of those awards now despite spending them quite liberally, so it will take a few months before my next attempt )

This is one of biggest gripes about the current system. You possess this brilliant concept that rides on earning a specific award. That means it requires you roll your invested character that still likely provides fine roleplay or you start a character to grind to 26.

Say you do get that much-desired Greater or Major award. You'll never want to roll it. Due to an over saturation of rare races, it causes these racial awards to jump a level or become to be disabled. That's what happened with my most recent Greater award (i.e. RDD jumped to Major literally the morning I rolled for the Greater).