Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Polls can be created by Patrons only (try-out for now)

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Would you rather your TF stay a TF or be migrated to Invoker?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:36 pm

Grandfather my TF
10
16%
Migrate my TF to an Invoker
9
14%
I don't play a TF, but I think they should be grandfathered.
14
22%
I don't play a TF, but I think they should be migrated.
22
34%
I don't play a TF, and I don't care if they're migrated or grandfathered.
9
14%
 
Total votes: 64

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:36 pm

I realize I'm probably not the only one who has a TF that they still spend time on. The question is in the title- I'm not staff, and the outcome of the poll in no way guarantees that's what'll happen, I'm just curious about the sentiments of the current TFs.

The invoker sub-classes are clearly mechanically superior, and I don't have a problem with that. But they're also fundamentally different, and I didn't exactly ask for my class to be upgraded - I'd very much rather keep the inferior TF than be translated to the invoker.

My question is, of the TF's that currently exist, how many of you would prefer to keep the character as is, and how many want to be migrated to the invoker class? Feel free to include your personal reasons in a reply.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
Amateur Hour
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:25 am

It's not been a popular class for a while, but I feel like for most of us who've found a niche with the trueflame/frost aesthetic, we've really settled into the "cookies" of the builds that we won't have in the new version. I'm currently reeling from the fact I'll lose my familiar and Brew Potion feats (the entire reason I took Herbalism). It seems like a far bigger shift in capability than spellsword was; I don't know how it compares to the warlock revamp.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario, Maethiel Tyireale'ala
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???


MRFTW
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 5:37 am

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by MRFTW » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:32 am

I picked "I don't play a TF, but I think they should be grandfathered."

I did play an old feylock, and we were not allowed to be grandfathered. Hopefully a better decision will be made this time around.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Ork » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:19 am

Grandfathering is bad policy and I'm glad we've ceased doing it.

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Kenji » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:56 am

Grandfathering is a terrible thing for the development side. It's like leaving leftover spaghetti in the fridge. It starts to rot after a few years. And instead of throwing the spaghetti out, one has to spray deodorant around it to keep everything else not smelly.

User avatar
Amateur Hour
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:54 am

Grandfathering may generally be a bad idea, but the issue is that it's so drastically different that most of us would need a reMAKE, not a relevel. We will be stuck with the same craft point spread, same ability scores (since that window is closed, unless I missed something) which were picked with TF's unique structure in mind. Frankly, from what I have seen in pgcc, it would be far more feasible to swap my TF to unpathed sorcerer than to invoker.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario, Maethiel Tyireale'ala
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???


Kalopsia
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 1445
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Concourse Capaneus
Contact:

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Kalopsia » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:07 am

Amateur Hour wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:54 am
We will be stuck with the same craft point spread, same ability scores (since that window is closed, unless I missed something) which were picked with TF's unique structure in mind.
Automatic DM-administered level 1 rebuilds (including stat spread adjustments) should be a thing soon. I've been working on a thing(tm), the team just needs to discuss the general process and guidelines first, which is why this hasn't been announced yet.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:21 am

Kenji wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:56 am
Grandfathering is a terrible thing for the development side. It's like leaving leftover spaghetti in the fridge. It starts to rot after a few years. And instead of throwing the spaghetti out, one has to spray deodorant around it to keep everything else not smelly.
I get where you're coming from on a general basis, but this isn't exactly like transitioning a warlock from a path to a class, where the primary crux (unlimited casting for most of their spells <all of them from level 1-6>) stayed the same and they got two extra spell levels of offense that couldn't be completely neutralized by globes of invulnerability.

I've already acknowledged that invoker gets better cookies (more feats, more HP), but the core of "unlimited casting within a very specific bracket" is being taken away here. I don't think anyone can convincingly argue that leaving the true flame path playable would break any balance discussions in the future around other classes or features, since it's more or less unilaterally agreed that TF's are terrible in PvP, but maybe there's a bigger picture I'm missing.

I'd even take a mark of the dauntless to keep my TF as is. I'd say it's a reasonable cost to keeping something that's otherwise no longer in the module; it still generates the eventual flush of the characters since no new ones can be made, but it gives people an opportunity to ride out their story without a sudden and total shift in capabilities that they might not want to come up with an explanation for.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
mourisson1
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:49 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by mourisson1 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:13 am

Kenji wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:56 am
Grandfathering is a terrible thing for the development side. It's like leaving leftover spaghetti in the fridge. It starts to rot after a few years. And instead of throwing the spaghetti out, one has to spray deodorant around it to keep everything else not smelly.
The actual terrible thing about grandfathering is the inconsistency of it. You say it's terrible for developments side, yet it's still happening, in some cases.

For instance drows, when they were buffed by gifts, the old ones were grandfathered, and they became weaker than the new ones.
When drow SR was reduced, old drows werent grandfathered, and their SR was reduced as well.

I dont care much about how it affects my character or not, I'm just pointing out how badly decided grandfathering seems, because of it's inconsistency, and not a clear decision: no grandfathering, or all grandfathering.
Of course there will be reasons that I can't see (I dont see into the code), that you can definitely use to advocate for some examples of it happening or not, but if you look at it from players perspective, and how it affects them, given the example with drows, it generates bad mood.
Lothias Mour'rek - Gone. Or is he?
Locika Querrestalo - For holy light

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Xerah » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:10 pm

There is a massive difference between +2 to a stat and a whole class that does something that is not desired. Every effort is made to not grandfather stuff in even if some minor stuff does get left as is. And the other side is how often will this thing be seen (i.e. do a lot of people play this vs. no one is going to know that Jim has an extra +2 to WIS or whatever) plus how much work is it to fix (including what tools are available at the time).

The general development approach is NO grandfathering. I would assume the team still has that view. Kalopsia has put in tons of work in developing tools like changing level 1 classes to deal with this (and the upcoming stat adjustment stuff they mentioned in another thread).
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

chris a gogo
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:41 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:31 pm

I voted for grandfathering mostly due to having spent a major award 4 days ago and made that character into a true frost.
I tested an elementalist and found it massively disappointing even compared to the true frost, so I would love a level 1 remake of class and stat spread or just the award refunded and the character deleted.

User avatar
mourisson1
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:49 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by mourisson1 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:22 pm

I'd wait with that for what the class Will become. Také that as early acess that is there to make the class playable and nice for People. Right now it may look bad (it is), but there are already improvements. I wouldnt bother myself thinking if I want relevel, or if the migration is gonna kill character, until the class is actually released
Lothias Mour'rek - Gone. Or is he?
Locika Querrestalo - For holy light

Drowboy
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 am

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Drowboy » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:18 pm

Wouldn't the more productive path here be to participate actively in the testing and feedback of the TF replacement class, to make sure that it feels as good as possible for TF users as well as everyone else? rather than clinging to the past
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:29 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:18 pm
Wouldn't the more productive path here be to participate actively in the testing and feedback of the TF replacement class, to make sure that it feels as good as possible for TF users as well as everyone else? rather than clinging to the past
The whole reason for people wanting to grandfather is that the new class doesn't feel like TF, that it's not the same thing. And while I would say Invoker is an amazing class on it's own, it's not the same as TF, and its creation doesn't warrant the removal of a fun and niche path like TF.

TF players, who want to hold on to their TF, participating in the testing of a class that isn't TF but is replacing the TF will spawn some very biased "make it like actual TF" feedback, which is not very productive for a class that is purposely not the same thing.

Invokers are more than good enough to be their own thing, but it plays nothing like a TF.


Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:17 am

Drowboy wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:18 pm
Wouldn't the more productive path here be to participate actively in the testing and feedback of the TF replacement class, to make sure that it feels as good as possible for TF users as well as everyone else? rather than clinging to the past
It would be, if the reason I didn't want to be migrated was because I thought the Invoker was weaker and tuning the power up would make it more appealing to me. This isn't the case.

I've looked at the numbers, and I've seen that Invokers can cast, a lot, without running out of their spell pool right away as currently designed. They get more HP, they get more feats (they don't even have to do multi-class juggling to get AQIII and hellball together anymore, which is amazing). But eventually, if they keep casting those ninth level spells, especially the ones with extra cost, they're gonna run out... and that makes plenty of sense, just fine, because they cast other things besides evocation, including hasting themselves...which is also awesome!

In fact, it's amazing. The class is stellar, and I'm super-enthused to see it play out.

It's just fundamentally not the same as a true flame, from the fact that they can cast their own haste and other spells to the fact that they can in fact run out of boom. Why wouldn't I want my character's abilities that he's had for the entire lifespan of his RP to remain consistent? I enjoyed the restrictions of the TF class, and the one primary perk of not running out of casting that it got in exchange, and developed my character's adventuring and professional reputation around it.

Doing the mental gymnastics to explain the change away IC might be fun if I wanted to do that, but in the absence of a desire to do so it's like giving me a homework assignment to write a short story about a subject I have no interest in.

In the words of Zoidberg, why not both? Other than the fact that it's a scripted path rather than a properly integrated class, what aspect of a TF's existence would prevent beneficial changes from happening to any other classes? Even if every evocation spell was upgraded a single damage step, a TF would retain all its traditional weaknesses and doesn't shatter the meta as long as its time to kill doesn't become so low that nothing can keep up. That's not a change I'm advocating for, it's just the only aspect of the meta I can see their existence having any effect on.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
Regnant Phoenix
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:24 am

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Regnant Phoenix » Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:54 am

In the interest of not grandfathering I voted to migrate my existing True Frost pathed Sorcerer over to Invoker. Grandfathering needs to become a dead concept, long and forgotten. It has no purpose here anymore and never should have. Players as a whole need to accept that grandfathering shouldn't happen anymore. It leaves (often) awful spaghetti code in an already large dish of the stuff on the backend that needs to be done away with.

It Came From Beneath The Earth
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:39 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by It Came From Beneath The Earth » Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:00 pm

Trueflame has been on the list to go the way of the Weavemaster for quite some time now.

I remember a couple years ago hearing about the fact that somebody was trying to play around with how to change it. Things like Favored Soul, Kensai, Weavemaster, all went away without any actual replacements. And yeah some were grandfathered. But they still shouldn't be.

Trueflame needed changes. I know you're going to disagree. It's irrelevant. You don't have to feel it was necessary, but for the vast majority of people, they wouldn't have shown any interest in the class because it was absolutely a massive trap. You're talking about how this new class is so much weaker.

Well get this. It's currently in testing. People have mentioned that it feels weaker, myself among them. And know what? The developer of the class has decided to try and make some meaningful changes to make it stronger or better in some ways. That's how this works. Feedback, and change. Feedback, and change. You can't just look at a class that isn't even released yet and say 'Well this is garbage so don't make me play it.'

Grandfathering is bad. For so many, many, many reasons. It creates so much more work for everyone on the development team. It doesn't actually benefit many people. I've played a trueflame or two. They have some neat stuff they can accomplish. But they are also frustrating at just how bad they are at literally everything else. They have no utility. They have no support. Their offence was actually almost worse than a warlock by the time the warlock changes came in.

Use this as an opportunity to provide meaningful feedback. I've actually tested it. It does feel very similar. I just don't have to feel like I'm totally gimped because I can't do things needed for casters to not instantly die. Like mantles. And breaches.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:18 pm

It Came From Beneath The Earth wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:00 pm
Trueflame needed changes. I know you're going to disagree. It's irrelevant. You don't have to feel it was necessary, but for the vast majority of people, they wouldn't have shown any interest in the class because it was absolutely a massive trap. You're talking about how this new class is so much weaker.
Emphasis mine, again, this the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying I see that the new class is stronger, I'm glad it exists for people to play, but it's different than the class I'm playing on a fundamental enough level that it's antithetical to the character, and I would like to keep my weaker character on top of the stronger class existing.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:36 pm
The invoker sub-classes are clearly mechanically superior, and I don't have a problem with that. But they're also fundamentally different, and I didn't exactly ask for my class to be upgraded - I'd very much rather keep the inferior TF than be translated to the invoker.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:21 am
I've already acknowledged that invoker gets better cookies (more feats, more HP), but the core of "unlimited casting within a very specific bracket" is being taken away here.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:17 am
In fact, it's amazing. The class is stellar, and I'm super-enthused to see it play out.

It's just fundamentally not the same as a true flame,
To be perfectly clear, my opinion is that mechanically the Invoker is superior to the True Flame in every way that matters, and that functionally, if you exercise a bit of common sense in your spell cycle, your casting is virtually unlimited. But that's not the same as unlimited, and "unlimited casting" is so baked into the nature of my character that in his background one of his fears includes areas of antimagic because he's been an unlimited font of magical power since he was born, and being in a place where that stops being true is like being in a place where you can't breathe.

I'm not trying to get the class axed. I'm not even trying to get True Flame a buff or to remain selectable. I'm advocating that current True Flames who don't want to suddenly not be true flames anymore be allowed to keep a mechanically inferior class until the character dies (with a mark of the dauntless to ensure that happens, no less), and I'm seeking specific clarification on how these characters existing would prevent the betterment of any other class in the game development side when their kit is so narrowly focused, because that's what everyone keeps saying would happen but no one can give any examples.

Policy has always been on a case by case basis here, for everything from rules infractions to relevels, and I don't understand the case argument here.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Xerah » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:22 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:18 pm
Policy has always been on a case by case basis here, for everything from rules infractions to relevels, and I don't understand the case argument here.
Case by case is really misrepresentation, it was more so "never grandfather unless it is a huge PITA to remove"
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:26 pm

We're not disagreeing that the concept of grandfathering is bad. We're disagreeing with the removal of True Flame/Frost, as it's nothing like Invoker. It's fundamentally different.

Instead of outright removing it, change it to an award path then? It's not doing any harm, and a new player won't be able to accidentally pick it if it's an award.

Also, I have to point this out: When Kensai and Weavemaster were around, people called them "traps". Then they got removed. Now TF is getting the same treatment.
But those of us who play these paths do so willingly. We know they're not mechanically superior. We know it's not optimal, and we certainly know dungeons aren't going to be designed with these paths in mind. Which means we have to depend on a group or wait till we get stronger.
We know it's a "trap" (I disagree entirely with that word used on a path, but I digress). We choose it willingly. No one is forcing us to play a TF. Just like no one is forcing you to play one.

We play TF because it's fun. We're not asking for mechanical power and optimalness. We just like playing our TF, who is likely underperforming and suboptimal - but we don't care! We're still having fun with it. We full well know that we can't cast Haste or Improved Invisibility, the two most utilized spells in the game. We willingly chose this path knowing that. And we're more than okay with it, because it's still fun.

For those saying the path is a trap, maybe just don't pick it then? No one is forcing you to. And if you're worried about new players picking it, why? The path selection menu already comes with plenty of warnings and description. No one is blindsiding these new players.


Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Xerah » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:38 pm

Having to consider what update number 1000 will do to grandfathered things when you're currently on update 500 is development nightmare; now we have to write all this extra code because 5 people complained that so they could play things exactly the same as before.

It's also annoying (and unfair) for new players to see other people playing things they can't. It's far better to migrate. These classes are close enough (and not fundamentally different) to the same that none of these arguments really hold much water.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:39 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:38 pm
Having to consider what update number 1000 will do to grandfathered things when you're currently on update 500 is development nightmare; now we have to write all this extra code because 5 people complained that so they could play things exactly the same as before.
I respect this line of thought, but I'm seriously asking, and there is not a single example given so far- what kind of hypothetical future changes might anyone make to any class or mechanic that would have to suddenly pull the E-Brake because three or four mark of the dauntless TF's were still running around (maybe, if they don't all hit 10 deaths or gracefully retire before said change comes around)?

It's also annoying (and unfair) for new players to see other people playing things they can't. It's far better to migrate. These classes are close enough (and not fundamentally different) to the same that none of these arguments really hold much water.
I also generally respect this argument, except in this case it exists alongside the argument that TF is a trap and hardly anyone plays them in the first place; it seems unlikely that three or four such characters with a shelf-life expiration are going to inspire a massive wave of envy. I do disagree that they aren't fundamentally different, but I don't know how to begin to go about convincing anyone of that if it doesn't present to them as readily apparent beyond points I've already made about their conceptual differences. I respect your right to disagree.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

xf1313
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:39 am
Location: China

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by xf1313 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:57 am

I can see the argument, actually, maybe, tf can be leaved as it is. As a path instead of being deleted.

They are not strong and break no balance at all

If the elementalist still have all evocation spells, they are close...but no.
Wild-elf Druid Laurifin Goldenleaf
Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

Drowboy
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 am

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by Drowboy » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:27 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:39 pm
Xerah wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:38 pm
Having to consider what update number 1000 will do to grandfathered things when you're currently on update 500 is development nightmare; now we have to write all this extra code because 5 people complained that so they could play things exactly the same as before.
I respect this line of thought, but I'm seriously asking, and there is not a single example given so far- what kind of hypothetical future changes might anyone make to any class or mechanic that would have to suddenly pull the E-Brake because three or four mark of the dauntless TF's were still running around (maybe, if they don't all hit 10 deaths or gracefully retire before said change comes around)?


Is there really, honestly, an answer for this that would be enough? The devs have said on this and every other grandfathering attempt that it makes things harder for them. Trying to balance mages, spells, spawns, etc, around weavemaster was hard enough it got chunked.

What kind of hypothetical future changes? Anything to sorc that would have to compensate for TF's existence (Or be coded around it to exclude TF, which is more work, and depending on what Arelith's scripts look like specifically, quite possibly a good deal of it) and if it's done on the hak level it's even worse.

Anything with evo spells? All those "please buff save or x spell" threads?
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

chris a gogo
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:41 pm

Re: Current TFs: Migration or Grandfather

Post by chris a gogo » Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:23 pm

If the path is removed it's removed.
But the invoker is nothing like a true flame was not even vaguely similar in playstyle, so the migration of them into a class that has a totally different feel and playstyle isn't going to be popular with those that play this current path.

Post Reply