Class Overview: Barbarian

[Xersaoth]

It is interesting that some very ability-rich classes on Arelith receive significant updates, while the ability-starved Barbarian class remains relatively static.

The Barbarian class gets zero bonus feats, unlike almost any other, and has only three unique feats that are usable, which are also locked behind a requirement of both 20 Barbarian levels and an impairingly high Constitution score. Furthermore, these feats are only aspects of one, namely the Rage feat. The class has little to add to it besides boring damage reduction, comparable to two pieces of armor, which is significantly worse than having even just slightly higher armor class in most scenarios.

The incremental increase in physical damage is also ridiculously low when compared to classes like Weapon Master, Rogue, and many others. It only gets noticeably but not too much better, again, in the epic levels.

The alcoholic strength boost and the Tribal Path are ineffective, as the former is useless due to the soft cap and the latter lacks role-play enrichment since the tribesmen cannot be named or role-played effectively via possession.

This severely limits the class's versatility compared to others: multiclassing as a Barbarian is very ineffective; taking a dip in the class is questionable to say the least.

I recently suggested some changes, and I know that others had made suggestions last year. However, I'm curious about what other players may have to add to it all.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont play Barbarians and never have. The rage mechanic just doesnt seem fun for my playstyle and how I like to do dungeons.

I will say tho that I really do my best to avoid being on the recieving end of a shot-gun pvp 2hander barb build because most builds just die to that before they can even get their haste off. I've seen noob clueless players stomp the opposition by just clicking rage and charging. The strength of barbarian in pvp is that it has the lowest wind up in the game.

I've also seen some hilarious RP coming out of tribal barbs.

I dont really have a horse in this race but that's my two cents. I dont really have an opinion for or against barb buffs, I'll leave that to people who actually enjoy the class's theme and architype.

[Anomandaris]

The problem Barb suffers from may be similar to Sorc. That being, they are both incredibly mechanically powerful in PvP based on a couple existing build paths. This means that adding anything to the class could easily put it over the edge balance wise, and thus requires a lot of careful thought to do anything to it.

[Kushion]

I think Barbarian is probably one of the more balanced martial classes, the only thing I'd really want is maybe some innate regen per 7 -8 levels, and one of the Epic Rage / EDR feats being condensed, to free up a single feat to allow for the flexibility that many other martials get.

[Peacewhisper]

Barbarian is a lot like crocodilians or sharks. They have barely evolved at all over millions of years, because they are just about perfect already, there is hardly anything you can do to improve them other than strapping freaking laser beams to their heads. It is true barbarian is very simple in its design compared to classes like spellsword, harbinger, paladin, vigilante, etc. But you're supposed to be a big, dumb muscle man who hits things hard. If you want to be Iron Man, Batman, Spiderman, etc. with 200 IQ and loads of gadgets you can pick from the former classes I listed. If you want to play The Incredible Hulk and SMASH!, you pick Barbarian.

As for multi classing, some of those other classes I mentioned punish you WAY harder for multiclassing at all, and barb actually has some good synergies. Barbarian/Weapon Master has some of the highest DPS on the server. Tribal Barbarian has some synergy with Shaman, you can have an army of elementals and tribesmen while hurling throwing axes. A barbarian/cavalier will have an absurd amount of HP and can charge attack just about anyone to death. A barbarian/divine champ can get double mad and gets better saves. A barbarian/ranger can dual-wield or use a double weapon for more APR.

While I understand it feels very plain compared to those classes, there is strength in its simplicity. Barbarian fulfills its niche/role quite well, is very powerful, and does have plenty of very good multiclass options already. I'd rather the dev team spend their time and energy on other classes that need the love more, like sorcerer.

[Security_Blanket]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Xersaoth]

The Barbarian class literally has only one active skill - rage... no bonus feats, and twenty useless levels that are practically enforced. I would call it somewhat poor design, if not call the class being broken or needing fixes.

As someone who has played it for a long time with top-notch gear, I would also argue that it is weaker than many other martial classes, especially dexterity-based or pure fighters, swashbucklers, monks, spellswords, or virtually anyone with divine shield or just higher AB/AC - the requirement of high CON is extremely impairing in PvP.

The class is not bad in the epic levels, because that is where it gets practically all of its power. The first twenty levels are mostly there to unlock the epic tier. That's it.

[Planestrider]

Personally, as someone who has played many barbs, it could use maybe slight tweaking, its pretty good where it is, but its low as heck ac really hinders it. Especially in later levels, i think making damage reduction following the lines of dwarven defender or something could help compensate a bit.

Rather then having high ac, just being able to take hits.

[Aellowyn]

Barbarian needs three things and to be good at these three things: Strong, toughness and rage. That's it. A simple class with a simple design.

As someone who loves barbarian and played many many barbs, I echo what others have said, barbarian is pretty decent where it is. The class is the definition of tough and strong. Little to no windup, no need for AC.

However, I do have trouble playing barbarians long term due to their lack of flexibility when it comes to utility skills and such because the low INT and need for STR and CON make skills hard to squeeze out, although, if I want something that can bluff, search, appraise, or be remotely a skill monkey I play something else. But, when I want to play a meat shield that takes no sass, grabs political intrigue by the pants and shoves it face first into the nearest trash barrel, I dust off my second favorite class, the good ol' Barb.

It definitely is difficult to take all Rages and EDR, especially taking any sort of dip, except Ranger, which in my opinion seems just fine.

Does it have a lack of flexibility? Absolutely. Should it have flexibility? No. Keep that to those other classes.
Strong. Toughness. Rage. The barbarian is a simple creature, but with layers in character RP.

Okay, maybe four things, fourth being alcohol.
The alcohol STR soft buff is the only things at the moment I can see needing an update, as the change to server time made it wear off VERY fast and pretty useless except on Skal where Bull's STR can be hard to find the first few levels... If this one thing was adjusted accordingly, I would be quite pleased.

For those Tribal barbarians... Can they even be called a true barbarian without Rage? Perhaps they could be brought up as a Class review for Tribal Barbarians specifically.

---

I do want to add, that getting some more of the DR and Regen earlier would be lovely for leveling, because pre-epics is very painful and I can go through a hundred kits in a single dungeon.

[helitron]

Barbs have been nerfed a while ago, where they lost a considerable amount or damage output and HP during rage.
I agree that a nerf was needed - especially in combination with WM (note: again it’s the combination of a class with WM that leads to nerfing the class instead of the WM). But in my opinion, crippling both damage output AND HP during rage, which is the only reason to play a Barb, was too much. I would reconsider if they should get some more HP back when raging.

[AstralUniverse]

Barbs have been nerfed a while ago, where they lost a considerable amount or damage output and HP during rage.
I agree that a nerf was needed - especially in combination with WM (note: again it’s the combination of a class with WM that leads to nerfing the class instead of the WM). But in my opinion, crippling both damage output AND HP during rage, which is the only reason to play a Barb, was too much. I would reconsider if they should get some more HP back when raging.

I'm not sure these nerfs are related to weaponmaster. Generally speaking if weaponmaster is a problem with a certain class, the solution is always to push some of it's power spikes around the lvl 20~ marks, about 4-5 deeper into epics.

[Scurvy Cur]

Barbs have been nerfed a while ago, where they lost a considerable amount or damage output and HP during rage.
I agree that a nerf was needed - especially in combination with WM (note: again it’s the combination of a class with WM that leads to nerfing the class instead of the WM). But in my opinion, crippling both damage output AND HP during rage, which is the only reason to play a Barb, was too much. I would reconsider if they should get some more HP back when raging.

I'm not sure these nerfs are related to weaponmaster. Generally speaking if weaponmaster is a problem with a certain class, the solution is always to push some of it's power spikes around the lvl 20~ marks, about 4-5 deeper into epics.

Not quite. There were several different nerfs. There was a nerf to push thundering rage requirements back to 20+ barb levels to stop barb/wm/fighter from being as attractive (so there was a WM-related nerf, but it's not the one you think it is).

There was a separate, and I believe earlier, nerf to pull some of the damage and I believe also the HP bonus during rage down to more reasonable levels. This had nothing to do with barb/wm, and everything to do with the barb 26/fighter 4 build that was really popular in about 2018-2019. This nerf was pushed through because the 26/4 barb did a noticeably greater amount of damage than a 2h wm, but did it with a 900 HP pool and a bunch of DI/DR.

[helitron]

Barbs have been nerfed a while ago, where they lost a considerable amount or damage output and HP during rage.
I agree that a nerf was needed - especially in combination with WM (note: again it’s the combination of a class with WM that leads to nerfing the class instead of the WM). But in my opinion, crippling both damage output AND HP during rage, which is the only reason to play a Barb, was too much. I would reconsider if they should get some more HP back when raging.

I'm not sure these nerfs are related to weaponmaster. Generally speaking if weaponmaster is a problem with a certain class, the solution is always to push some of it's power spikes around the lvl 20~ marks, about 4-5 deeper into epics.

Not quite. There were several different nerfs. There was a nerf to push thundering rage requirements back to 20+ barb levels to stop barb/wm/fighter from being as attractive (so there was a WM-related nerf, but it's not the one you think it is).

There was a separate, and I believe earlier, nerf to pull some of the damage and I believe also the HP bonus during rage down to more reasonable levels. This had nothing to do with barb/wm, and everything to do with the barb 26/fighter 4 build that was really popular in about 2018-2019. This nerf was pushed through because the 26/4 barb did a noticeably greater amount of damage than a 2h wm, but did it with a 900 HP pool and a bunch of DI/DR.

Thundering rage change to 20 was 3 years ago. After that 21/5/4 Barb/wm/ftr was still possible with falchion or small race with scimitar - which was even more scary considering the increased crit range.

Changes to hp/damage during rage came end 2021/early 2022, therefore later.

That said, 26/4 Barb fighter were never the issue, but predominantly the increased weapon multiplier from WM together with the high damage output that could delete everyone in one flurry. Not to forget the well-placed Whirlwind that would allow a hasted Barb/Wm with thunder rage to net 7APR (with 3 attacks at full AB).

[AstralUniverse]

Barbs have been nerfed a while ago, where they lost a considerable amount or damage output and HP during rage.
I agree that a nerf was needed - especially in combination with WM (note: again it’s the combination of a class with WM that leads to nerfing the class instead of the WM). But in my opinion, crippling both damage output AND HP during rage, which is the only reason to play a Barb, was too much. I would reconsider if they should get some more HP back when raging.

I'm not sure these nerfs are related to weaponmaster. Generally speaking if weaponmaster is a problem with a certain class, the solution is always to push some of it's power spikes around the lvl 20~ marks, about 4-5 deeper into epics.

Not quite. There were several different nerfs. There was a nerf to push thundering rage requirements back to 20+ barb levels to stop barb/wm/fighter from being as attractive (so there was a WM-related nerf, but it's not the one you think it is).

There was a separate, and I believe earlier, nerf to pull some of the damage and I believe also the HP bonus during rage down to more reasonable levels. This had nothing to do with barb/wm, and everything to do with the barb 26/fighter 4 build that was really popular in about 2018-2019. This nerf was pushed through because the 26/4 barb did a noticeably greater amount of damage than a 2h wm, but did it with a 900 HP pool and a bunch of DI/DR.

Yeah, so we're in agreement on that. And thank you for reminding us of the time-line.

The nerfs I quoted as 'not targeted at weaponmaster' are, as you say, targeted at the 26/4 so this is in line with what I said. The nerf to thundering rage being pushed further up in the progression is exactly a good example for what I meant as a weaponmaster-related change but that's not the mentioned nerf I quoted. I think it's important to distinguish between those things because people complain a lot that weaponmaster is never getting nerfs, yet everything it touches usually gets nerfed, and I think it's important to demonstrate that it isnt always the case. When you want to nerf wm interactions you just shove powerspikes up in the class progression, and when you actually nerf the powerspikes themselves it is not because of weaponmaster.

[Security_Blanket]

Why doesn't Weapon Master just get the same treatment as Monk, I don't mean an overhaul that never ends, but a bunch of classes have this little addendum "doesn't apply with monk levels." Instead of nerfing an entire class because of what another class can offer if you dip into it, bring out those same stipulations. Maybe a slightly less powerful version of some rages if Weapon Master levels are present?

[chris a gogo]

Because it's a prestige class so you can't start as a weapon master and has a bunch of requirements to take it.
Where as monk was a base class that only needed lawful alignment to take it and 3 levels offers a lot of bonuses with no investment needed.
Barb is fine Barb multi classing into WM isn't a problem either.

To be clear no one is taking 3 levels of weapon master as a "dip".

[Security_Blanket]

To be clear no one is taking 3 levels of weapon master as a "dip".

Yes, I know that, but the principle is the same. I don't get the reasoning of it being a prestige class or a base class, the principle is the same, if Weapon Master levels are present certain abilities on certain classes a debuff of some sort. Rather than nerfing that class or pushing its best feats and abilities to levels 26+. What does base or prestige have anything to do with it, or only dipping three levels versus dipping five or seven? One bad apple screws up all these other class dips, so why not give it the same treatment as Monk where it applies?

[AstralUniverse]

To be clear no one is taking 3 levels of weapon master as a "dip".

Yes, I know that, but the principle is the same. I don't get the reasoning of it being a prestige class or a base class, the principle is the same, if Weapon Master levels are present certain abilities on certain classes a debuff of some sort. Rather than nerfing that class or pushing its best feats and abilities to levels 26+. What does base or prestige have anything to do with it, or only dipping three levels versus dipping five or seven? One bad apple screws up all these other class dips, so why not give it the same treatment as Monk where it applies?

That's a good question but not because weaponmaster needs nerfs, it's more because monk does NOT need any nerfs/rework for balance reasons, at current times. We've eliminated all of the OP interactions monk has with certain classes and what you're left with is basically wisdom ac if you dont use shield, dont wear anything heavier than cloth armor and actually invest in wisdom/dex gear to a point you get sufficient ac for it. It's a pretty big investment for what you get, and it's in a pretty good state right now imo.

With weaponmaster, you not only have to take 5-7 levels, but you also need to have 4 combat feats you otherwise would never bother getting, which subsequently require you to have 13+ dex and int, and besides all that, you also need to have relatively good base damage because weaponmaster is just a stat multiplier and you're not going for it if the multiplication isnt worth it for your base damage.

In both accounts the cretiria for when you take the class is quite narrowed down, as it should be.

[Peacewhisper]

Why doesn't Weapon Master just get the same treatment as Monk, I don't mean an overhaul that never ends, but a bunch of classes have this little addendum "doesn't apply with monk levels." Instead of nerfing an entire class because of what another class can offer if you dip into it, bring out those same stipulations. Maybe a slightly less powerful version of some rages if Weapon Master levels are present?

As someone who's built a lot of weapon masters over the years, pushing the better class features to later epic levels usually nips those wm builds in the bud. AstralUniverse is right about that. Paladin is a good example, you can still make a pretty good wm build with only 9 or 16 paladin levels, but nobody wants to do that, everyone wants those epic oath bonuses and divine synergy so the paladin builds you see are mostly with 26+ levels. Barbarian can still make very good wm builds, but its not the powerhouse it used to be since other stronger builds have come along that can counter it. Fear immunity is pretty common now, used to only paladins had that.

[Kythana]

Why doesn't Weapon Master just get the same treatment as Monk, I don't mean an overhaul that never ends, but a bunch of classes have this little addendum "doesn't apply with monk levels."

Because, like Grandfathering, this is not good design. This very weird 'exception based design' is all over the place with Arelith and it makes anything affected both difficult to understand and maintain.

Whenever you create this sort of interaction, you're now coupling one class to another. So, if for example, Weapon Master changed the way rage behaved, if you ever decided to change anything about either Barbarian/Rage/Weapon Master, you have this new interaction to consider.

You can see this happening with monk right now. Anywhere it's listed where monk AC might not apply/reduced, or certain features might not be applicable with monk levels, or any sort of monk synergies? How do they work when Monk is being overhauled as a class? That all has to be accounted for.

[Kushion]

Mighty Rage and EDR being shoved behind 19 CON is usually deterrent enough for Barbarian/WMs getting all of the features. Mighty Rage is so so good- Losing out on that is a compromise, it's what has deterred me from picking Barb/WM over just EDR Barb, more than once.

[Wrips]

Rage duration is pretty short. Make it a toggle or increase duration so a barbarian can fight effectively longer than 2 minutes.

[Iceborn]

Instructions unclear. Strapping lasers beams on barbarians.

(No, not really. Barbs work well - as far as urgency to update goes, they are on the low end)

[TLN]

Have to say I'd love to see some tweaks to one of my favorite classes on Arelith. But also have to say the changes already made are -absolutely- spot on. Compared to the default NwN version, Arelith's Barbarian class does a far, far better job at representing the class both RP-wise and mechanically. Strength, toughness, and rage indeed.

I can't help but also agree with almost every reply here.

Yes, pre-epic barb is difficult and mostly boring, all the good stuff comes with epic levels. Worth the grind though!
Yes, barb is intended to be a physically powerful, difficult-to-kill "smash" build, not a skilled or intelligent/crafty fighter.
Yes, having abysmal AC as well as anti-AC equipment (Berserker -1AC cloth armor and +0 AC Circlet of Heroic Might) pushes this class towards high Con/EDR builds.

Yes, I'd like to see the class lean even more heavily into this "take hits rather than dodge" and "kill things faster than they kill you" gameplay style. But any tweaks should be very minor, as this class already does it the best hands down (Earthkin Defender for a close second, being a better defensive/tactical choice than Barb is you ask me).

All in all, great representation of the core concepts of the class already in place. Could possibly see another point or two of damage reduction or innate regeneration incorporated to really make it shine, but I'm already really impressed and rather content with where it sits now. Dev team did an amazing job with redesigning class features from the joke that was NWN's version, and beyond.

[Rei_Jin]

When a class is mechanically strong in PvP (and in most PvE), but it feels bland in ways, the solution is not to add more power to it but instead to look at what thematic abilities it can have added to it to add flavour and more non-combat options to it.

For example, Rangers get special tracking abilities in keeping with their theme. It doesn't make them stronger in PvP or PvE, but it adds flavour and non-combat options to that class. Another example would be that several classes get special abilities based on disguises which, again, do not aid in combat, but add flavour and non-combat options.

Perhaps Barbarians learn how to make totems as they level up, which can be used outside of combat in natural areas for different bonuses, such as;

• A Wolf Guardian totem that stops them being ambushed by NPCs when sleeping
• A Raven Guardian totem that gives a bonus to Spot and Listen, and penalties to those attempting to Sneak whilst in its area of effect
• A Bear Guardian totem that restores food and water passively to those within its area of effect
• A Tiger Guardian totem that gives those who rest within its area of effect a speed boost outside of combat in natural areas
• A Snake Guardian totem that protects those within its area of effect from scrying
• A Dragon Guardian totem that acts as a group teleport (the barbarian chooses a portal they are attuned to, to teleport everyone in the area of effect and in their party to that portal)

You set it up though, so that only one totem may be in effect in any one area at a time, so as to avoid barbarians stacking totems, and you ensure they only work in "natural" areas, and that they may only be set up outside of combat.

Of course there are other things one could do to add flavour for non-combat utility and fun to barbarian (or any other class), but this is just off the top of my head.