Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
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Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
It's been around for a long time.
This is mostly out of curious to, but, I do wonder what consequences could be if it were changed.
1. If we abolished the 3 Level Rule, what would change?
2. If we altered the level 3 rule to, "you must have 2 classes with at least 3 levels in them", what would change?
3. If we increased the level 3 rule to level 4, what would change?
4. Is there another way of instilling a semblance of balance on the server by not using the level 3 rule?
5. How disruptive would it be, or difficult to monitor, if the level 3 rule was changed to "by level 20, and level 30 you must have at least 3 levels in a class"? This would allow characters to start out as 1-1-1 of three classes.
This only sprung up because of the discussions around Kensai. Arguably the most "effective" builds have a 3 level dip.
This is mostly out of curious to, but, I do wonder what consequences could be if it were changed.
1. If we abolished the 3 Level Rule, what would change?
2. If we altered the level 3 rule to, "you must have 2 classes with at least 3 levels in them", what would change?
3. If we increased the level 3 rule to level 4, what would change?
4. Is there another way of instilling a semblance of balance on the server by not using the level 3 rule?
5. How disruptive would it be, or difficult to monitor, if the level 3 rule was changed to "by level 20, and level 30 you must have at least 3 levels in a class"? This would allow characters to start out as 1-1-1 of three classes.
This only sprung up because of the discussions around Kensai. Arguably the most "effective" builds have a 3 level dip.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
1. Wizard CL goes up by 2.
2. I'm not sure I understand this one.
3. 19/7/4
4. That will take a lot of thought.
5. I'd have no problem with requiring fulfillment of the 3 level requirement by 30, but it would be confusing and misleading for new players, who might get to level 26 or 28 only to discover that they're not allowed to take any more levels of their base class. It would certainly make for smoother leveling of multiclass concepts, but with the addition of quests, those low levels blow by quickly, so it would most likely be used to spread out skill dumps. Good in that it reduces those latency periods where your skills aren't appropriate for your level, but bad in that it's just another big fat kick in the teeth for Rogues.
2. I'm not sure I understand this one.
3. 19/7/4
4. That will take a lot of thought.
5. I'd have no problem with requiring fulfillment of the 3 level requirement by 30, but it would be confusing and misleading for new players, who might get to level 26 or 28 only to discover that they're not allowed to take any more levels of their base class. It would certainly make for smoother leveling of multiclass concepts, but with the addition of quests, those low levels blow by quickly, so it would most likely be used to spread out skill dumps. Good in that it reduces those latency periods where your skills aren't appropriate for your level, but bad in that it's just another big fat kick in the teeth for Rogues.
Last edited by PinataPlethora on Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
new wizard build would be like 28 1/2 rogue 1 ranger
free epic feats and evasion
free epic feats and evasion
\
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Any changes to the 3 Level Rule would require a lot of other balance tweaks, as many classes get benefits at 25 & 28 based on the idea that at those levels you're sacrificing some ability to multiclass.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
29 druid/1 monk unkillable murderbot
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.The devil does not need any more advocates
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
reason there's a 3lvl minimum to begin with is because without it we'd all get to play super dank op cheese power builds
29druid/1monk comes to mind, also 29sorc/1pally or whatever else could break server balance
29druid/1monk comes to mind, also 29sorc/1pally or whatever else could break server balance
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Dropping in to say that I would love to see the rule change to "at least 3 levels in all classes by level 30, and at least 3 levels in each of your first two classes before you can take a third class."
Would drastically alter early game quality of life for the better, IMO, and have neither a positive nor negative affect on skill-dumping or build-balance.
Would drastically alter early game quality of life for the better, IMO, and have neither a positive nor negative affect on skill-dumping or build-balance.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
1) People start taking a single level of rogue/bard rather than three.
2) What?
3) Most builds would drop one level from their primary class. Casters no longer get a skill dip until high epic. It no longer is possible to play a 3 APR battlecleric without waiting til epics for all your fighter levels.
4) Probably, but I don't really see the point. The three level rule works well enough.
5) You'd probably see more wizards getting discipline/umd early, and clerics dipping a single level of fighter at like 9-10.
2) What?
3) Most builds would drop one level from their primary class. Casters no longer get a skill dip until high epic. It no longer is possible to play a 3 APR battlecleric without waiting til epics for all your fighter levels.
4) Probably, but I don't really see the point. The three level rule works well enough.
5) You'd probably see more wizards getting discipline/umd early, and clerics dipping a single level of fighter at like 9-10.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Yeah, generally I feel like this would just result in more fine-tuning of builds.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
I'd be happy with #5 where you could spread out your dips if only to remove some of the "rush to 27-30 mentality". It has been brought up in the past so I'm not holding my breath but I'd love to be wrong.
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
The annoying thing is, even if it was made that way, melees would still benefit from dumping only past epics, otherwise they lose saves and AB. Casters lose a bit of saves. End of the day, it becomes more convinient, but doesn't change the best level order by much.
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Dumping at 21-22 versus 27-28ish can make a good bit of difference as level 21 is XP wise approx. halfway to 30.
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Pushing the envelope here...
what about keeping all the same, and pushing the level cap from 30 to 32.
what about keeping all the same, and pushing the level cap from 30 to 32.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Main problem is that this is accessible at level 31. It would be a pretty big buff to full caster classes, who would suddenly have 50/+20 DR for 2 to 3 minutes depending on their number of caster levels. That's a big balance shift in PvP particularly.The Kriv wrote:Pushing the envelope here...
what about keeping all the same, and pushing the level cap from 30 to 32.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Dev crit is disabled isn't it ? Disable epic warding too ?
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Or Enable Dev.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
The level cap is best pushed down, not upward.
Balance is already dangling from a cord, or already free-falling as it is.
Balance is already dangling from a cord, or already free-falling as it is.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
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Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide
Take a look before asking your questions!
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Dropping the level cap would only make balance worse.Iceborn wrote:The level cap is best pushed down, not upward.
Balance is already dangling from a cord, or already free-falling as it is.
UilliamNebel wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:24 pmYou're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
Anime Sword Fighter wrote: I have seen far too many miniskirt anime slave girls.
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
I believe the current max lvl is fine and that there's no need to change the 3 level rule either.
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
I agree things are probably best left as they are.
That said, to humor the question:
The 3 level rule helps ensure you're losing something by taking a dip.
Using the 29Sorc/1Pally as an example, Sorcerer's get a bonus epic feat on L29. If they take that pally dip for the saves, they're now losing an epic feat, which is actually a pretty big deal to a class that gets no bonus feats pre-epic.
There's many instances such as this, where taking that dip hurts the build in at least some way, and many of these cases are caused by the 3 level minimum.
Sometimes it's still worth it, which is good, it means builds aren't too cookie cutter(which is honestly one of my favorite things about NWN mechanics).
If the 3 level rule was removed, I suspect builds would become far more cookie cutter, because gaining that extra bonus a dip has to offer could end up costing nothing.
Additionally, many classes on the server are balanced around that 3 level rule. Pure Fighter would be even more tedious if they had to bump the last set of bonuses all the way up to L30 instead of 28.
As far as increasing the number:
It would further increase the likely hood of losing something by taking a dip, and would most likely lower the overall power cap of builds on the server, but the backlash and work that would arise wouldn't be worth the potential gain.
I could see many players leaving the server over something like that, dungeons and gear would have to be re-balanced, etc.
That said, to humor the question:
The 3 level rule helps ensure you're losing something by taking a dip.
Using the 29Sorc/1Pally as an example, Sorcerer's get a bonus epic feat on L29. If they take that pally dip for the saves, they're now losing an epic feat, which is actually a pretty big deal to a class that gets no bonus feats pre-epic.
There's many instances such as this, where taking that dip hurts the build in at least some way, and many of these cases are caused by the 3 level minimum.
Sometimes it's still worth it, which is good, it means builds aren't too cookie cutter(which is honestly one of my favorite things about NWN mechanics).
If the 3 level rule was removed, I suspect builds would become far more cookie cutter, because gaining that extra bonus a dip has to offer could end up costing nothing.
Additionally, many classes on the server are balanced around that 3 level rule. Pure Fighter would be even more tedious if they had to bump the last set of bonuses all the way up to L30 instead of 28.
As far as increasing the number:
It would further increase the likely hood of losing something by taking a dip, and would most likely lower the overall power cap of builds on the server, but the backlash and work that would arise wouldn't be worth the potential gain.
I could see many players leaving the server over something like that, dungeons and gear would have to be re-balanced, etc.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
A couple of the above post confuse me because i thought you always had to have a minimum of 3 lvls in a class before you could pick up a new class.
Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
You do, the post is discussing what buildsm ight look like if that was no longer a pre-requisite.
Having come from a server like this, you see a lot of 1 bard, 1 ranger, 1 rogue. Things like 25 ranger/4 fighter/1 rogue become common, 28 mage/1 ranger/1 rogue (or 2 rogue 27 mage), 24 cleric 4 fighter 2 rogue, so on, so on. 12 fighter 2 rogue 16 WM, 24 barbarian 4 fighter 2 rogue, 9 monk 2 fighter 19 assn
Some of these builds also pick up the possibility of doing rogue at level 1 for more skill points, then rogue at 27.
It'sa pretty drastic reorganizing of class balance and build ability. Would not recommend doing it purely because of the amount of upheaval and obsolesence you'd see.
Having come from a server like this, you see a lot of 1 bard, 1 ranger, 1 rogue. Things like 25 ranger/4 fighter/1 rogue become common, 28 mage/1 ranger/1 rogue (or 2 rogue 27 mage), 24 cleric 4 fighter 2 rogue, so on, so on. 12 fighter 2 rogue 16 WM, 24 barbarian 4 fighter 2 rogue, 9 monk 2 fighter 19 assn
Some of these builds also pick up the possibility of doing rogue at level 1 for more skill points, then rogue at 27.
It'sa pretty drastic reorganizing of class balance and build ability. Would not recommend doing it purely because of the amount of upheaval and obsolesence you'd see.
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Re: Interrogating the 3 Level Rule
Yea that's what I thought, but reading some of the post.....i'll just say I read them wrong, lol.
I like the way it is. Not a fan of the 1 levels dips anymore, which I where I came from some 7 or 8 years ago. lvl 40 at that. I've come to love how Arelith does things, min lvl 3 but in order to get some rogue or Ranger special privileges you need 4 lvls or so.
Anyways, I like it as it.
I like the way it is. Not a fan of the 1 levels dips anymore, which I where I came from some 7 or 8 years ago. lvl 40 at that. I've come to love how Arelith does things, min lvl 3 but in order to get some rogue or Ranger special privileges you need 4 lvls or so.
Anyways, I like it as it.