The State of Spellcraft

[magistrasa]

Had an interesting conversation recently that I'd like to open up to the community. But beforehand, I'd like to preface this by saying I have no strong opinions one way or the other so don't come at me like I'm trying to break your build and ruin your game. I know how some of us like to assume the worst.

So, spellcraft. INT based skill. Every 5 points you have in it, you get a +1 to all saves against magical effects. That's pretty cool. I enjoy having like a +15 to all my worst saves as a wizard. It makes me feel (and continue to be) alive! But, at the same time... Isn't that kind of a crazy number to add to all your spell saves?

Compare to the tumble skill. DEX based, but it doesn't matter. You get +1 Dodge AC for every 5 ranks you take in tumble - and that ignores gear, ignores your stat modifier, all of it. It's all based on what skill points you use.

I guess I'm just kinda wondering what thought process there was when the different calculations were put in, aside from "Implosion OP" - which, to be fair, is entirely valid given how failing one spell's save from pretty much any class can pretty much ruin your day. I'm not saying that it was the wrong choice to make spellcraft work like this by any means, because I don't want EVERYONE playing casters for those one-hit wonders that not everyone can resist, but I can't help but look at +15's and wonder if it's overkill. And I'm only saying 15 because I'm bad at math - I'm pretty sure one could easily go higher if they wanted.

I don't say any of this as a suggestion per se, but more as a point of curiosity and discussion: What happens when spellcraft gets removed as an enchanting basin option? What happens if the skill ranks are all that matter and you're stuck with a +6 maximum? What are people's opinions/experiences/observations on the topic? How else can we make the game utterly unplayable for anyone without a bard dip? Will nerfing everyone's spell saves finally make me good at the game when I Weird-spam my problems away?

[Halibutthead]

you'd probably have to take that up with bioware, back when they made NWN. it's hardcoded.

a thing to note, though, is that there's a soft cap at +20, which includes +1 saves on gear and the spell "protection from spells," making it ridiculously easy to get the maximum bonus

[flower]

+15 to save requires 75 skill.-

If someone pumps it that far, why not? It needs 33 skill ranks least. Many classes must cross class it (and usually have low skill points).


And then you still need to add 42 in gear. How you add 42 skill points on gear

[magistrasa]

I SAID I WAS BAD AT MATH OKAY SHUSH

33 from skills + let's say 11 from 42 INT + (uhhhhhhh how many pieces of gear are there, 8?) 16 from enchanting it on all your gear + 10 from ESF if we're really going crazy with it = 70, so +14 to saves without buffs like PfS

CLOSE ENOUGH

[flower]

I SAID I WAS BAD AT MATH OKAY SHUSH

33 from skills + let's say 11 from 42 INT + (uhhhhhhh how many pieces of gear are there, 8?) 16 from enchanting it on all your gear + 10 from ESF if we're really going crazy with it = 70, so +14 to saves without buffs like PfS

CLOSE ENOUGH

Yes but that goes for a certain class. But really, anyone wasting epic feat for that?

Edit: you just cannot hold debate about changing a thing without proper math.

[Jagel]

Proper math is not needed unless this is a discussion of “how much bonus save from SC is too much”.

[flower]

Proper math is not needed unless this is a discussion of “how much bonus save from SC is too much”.

When he shot off +15 to saves from it….

[magistrasa]

What is this, a statistics class? I hope not, because I failed my statistics class. It's not my fault though, it was just really boring and I didn't wanna do it. Which is kinda how I feel about this right now. But for you, my dearly beloved Flower... I will make this sacrifice.

Those who have the misfortune of not being a megamind wizard class will probably have 14 INT, so 2 + 33 + 16 from gear (why do I feel like the number isn't 8?? am I insane) + ZERO since now let's assume there's no overkill ESF = 51, so +10 to all spell saves. Add in a transmuter's int buff and that becomes 54, add in a skleen and it's 55 (technically 56 but whatever) - so, +11, before protection spells, just from spellcraft. That sounds pretty sweet as it is, and once you slap yourself with Protection from Spells (+8) you're sitting pretty at +19 to spell saves, the edge of the soft cap.

I think it's worth wondering what the world would look like if spellcraft got stripped from the enchanting basin, since I assume that isn't hardcoded. So you could only get gear bonuses from things found in the world, or things crafted. Since runes are making it easier than ever to put unisaves on your gear, and there's still other saving throw buff spells, not to mention the fact that bards and paladins and blackguards get their own special sauce on their saves.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Hmm, I am much like the OP in how I can't really feel one way about it. On one hand, lowering the potential of spellcraft will just increase rogue/paladin/blackguard dips. While on the other hand, spellcraft isn't really a skill that bothers me or sticks out.

[flower]

Is not PoS breachable?

That would instantly remove boost to saves.


I have SC myself only on casters. Rogue dip with evasion is way better than few points from SC. And i am starved on skill points on any character despite going 16 int.

[Sea Shanties]

If I'm playing a wizard I just assume everyone is going to make the save in PVP. It might be interesting if more spells actually worked.

On the other hand durations of disabling spells are ridiculously long in this game. A level 2 or 3 hold person succeeding basically wins a fight, just as one example. Seems to me it would be more interesting if more spells were able to land but they lasted only a few rounds.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Only problem I see with short term CC making a appearance is that it will raise soooo many balance issues.

[magistrasa]

For comparison's sake, a caster with a 40 in their casting stat (with buffs and gear) and ESF, casting a 9th level spell, is going to have a DC of 40 (10+15+6+9). At level 30, your worst possible save is gonna be a base +7 - and that's if you're some weird subrace that's starting with 6 CON/DEX/WIS. I'm not sure it's even possible to get lower, and I'm not sure anyone's crazy enough to try. Factor in the soft cap to your worst save and you're gonna have a 40% chance of success against a mage's best shot at you (+27 to save, failure on 12 or lower). Give or take another point or two for racial resistances or a casting stat of over 40.

Short term CC kinda exists - kinda. Most melee builds can barely stand up against a color spray if they haven't prepared themselves for it. Most WM have a base will save of like, 8. That being said, spellcraft and unisaves on gear are both pretty much their only solid defense against stuff like Weird or Hold spells, and I'm not about to pretend any changes to limit accessibility to spellcraft aren't gonna hit you 20/7/3's the hardest.

BUT Y'ALL ARE THE ONES FORCING US CASTERS TO DIP FOR DISCIPLINE SO YOU DESERVE IT, MANDATORY BARD DIPS FOR EVERYONE AHAHAHA

[CosmicOrderV]

I find the idea of shorter lasting CC, with a less likely save, being actually highly appealing. Seems fairly linearly in terms of balance. Especially if the saves aren't really lowered all that much (IE: Just removing Spellcraft from the basin), but the duration is more noticeably shortened (something like 1/4 to 1/2 the normal duration).

It would probably need only be done to things that completely disable a target (stuns, paralysis). Stuff like Hold Person, Evard's, certain Bigby's, Dominations, Storm of Vengeance, Hammer of the Gods, and Word of Faith.

Other things like blindness or daze, you can counter while under the effects them self, so no need to change those. Especially because, just a few buffs make you flat out immune to most of these effects: Freedom of Movement, Clarity.

[Zed]

As a person who strives to try and build the highest you can go for these stats (because I love to sling save or die spells)

There is no issue with spellcraft at the moment.

Even if you were able to get up to 75 SC (Which is possible as a sun elf wizard with gift and a hit or two of great int)

A wizards saves are still in the dumps perpetually, your will save being highest. And your reflex saves your lowest.

Warded a good wizard will have 20 to 25 fort save compared to an unwarded standard PvP capable meleer with 28 to 35 fort

The +15 against spells is specifically tailored to the fact that if it wasnt there each fight 1v1 wizards would be "who can cast a good dispel and cast death first"

I also agree with the above posters about CC and add the Caviat that I think all of the low circle spells, 1 to 5 should get a look at and be rebalanced to be scalable and useful,to a wizard.

Currently the most useful spells tend to be a very short list of things everyone knows how to counter and the best part of being a wizard is knowing your Arsenal and being able to plan 4 to 5 turns ahead so that you can win your engagements.

Still most engagements are


Fight starts:
MASS HASTE
TIMESTOP
MORDENKAINENS DISJUNCTION
IGMS
IGMS
IGMS
IGMS
EDK?

OH GODS HE DIDNT DI- AH, IM DEAD

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Fight starts:
MASS HASTE
TIMESTOP
MORDENKAINENS DISJUNCTION
IGMS
IGMS
IGMS
IGMS
EDK?

OH GODS HE DIDNT DI- AH, IM DEAD

So, a vital change I feel you may want to try:

Round 1:

1: Haste, Quickened - Mass Haste for your party is nice. You're a mage. No one making the correct decision amongst the enemy is going to go for anyone in the party before they go for you. You want to be hasted IN round 1, and still be able to cast a second spell or run for your squishy little life.

2: Greater Sanctuary, Extended - Yes, even if you're in a party.

Some player skill is relevant here. You will have to make sure you don't get hit with a ground targeted disjunction (watch the combat log for "uses/casts true seeing" and break line of sight to that target), but this is by far a better opening round set-up. For starters, you will get the extended GS off in your first round- in your start-up, mass haste takes ALL of your first round to cast, and timestop doesn't come until the second round, at which point someone may have closed to plant you with an IKD or worse.

This also allows you to get off further buffs to yourself and your party starting round 2 (including mass haste) with immunity to targeting, get any summoning you want done, and most importantly, it allows you to pick when you engage with your timestop to guarantee a kill. If you have an epic evocation focus, it also carries the possibility of landing an unexpected hellball without hitting your party for collateral damage by moving so that the blast radius (cast on yourself) only hits the enemy - followed by a timestop. If partyless, position yourself for a ground AoE disjunction and hellball instead, again, followed by timestop. You should now have some incredibly soft targets to kill.

And before you feel too badly about not providing your party (if any) with haste during round 1, just remember that PvP engagements tend to be what most people hoard special things like death ward wands and haste potions for. They'll thank you later when you don't include them in the hellball, because haste won't protect them from that.




On Topic
I think it makes sense that if you study spells and understand how they work better that you can better protect yourselves from them. Explaining the bonus IC isn't difficult - it can even be fun. "Sprinkling salt over your shoulder at the start of each day helps to ward off curses and misfortune."

So I don't mind it, unless we're also looking at pulling Tumble AC out of the game- you're only supposed to get an improved AC from tumble when fighting defensively or in total defense mode (no attacks), which NWN only implemented through the feats expertise and improved expertise- so technically there should be no bonus AC from tumble unless you're in expertise or improved expertise mode (both of which engage "fighting defensively" and NOT "total defense"), and the bonus should only be an extra +1 dodge at 5 ranks, period- not an extra +1 for every 5 ranks.

[Zed]

To above. It was a joke. But if any aspiring wizards out there are reading its,pretty good advice