Outcast recognition

[Chair]

*Shrugs* To be perfectly honest though, I see this having two effects in the long run. You have the people like me who fully enjoy PVP seeing it as a neat little thing that enhances the potential of duking it out with people when we get out and about. Something we were already generally looking to stoke up for reasons differing based on the character. And then you have the people who are the more socialite, seeking to instead do some intrigue or maybe just some simple who knows whatever the heck. Who will likely see it as the end of the world for that character unless they invested in bluff/perform.

The first group of people will likely use it and have some pretty fun times as it would ensure that people actually have to make the choice to confront you, or let you do what you want. Both of which would generally serve as a source of fun for the player involved. While the second group would have to dedicate a heck of a lot more thought and caution into their sessions and serve as an almost constant stress test, as if they get seen a single time without the disguise on then boop there goes that entire character's line of roleplay and its into the gulag they go.

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

Finally lock outcasts behind a reward.

Can we PLEASE not put yet another fun concept out of reach of good players and within reach of grinders whose sole reason for getting 5%s is that they can go from 0-30 in a two-week time frame and the roll repeatedly until they get to play the concept? Don't even suggest it.

If you want to limit it, do so based on rp quality, not ability to grind and roll in a short time-span. Thanks.

[kinginyellow]

The argument that it's a little weird how people are now 'marked' as Outcasts – how it's odd that people are suddenly able to spot them, when they couldn't before – All those points about how strange it is that you can meet someone in the middle of the desert, and suddenly 'know' that they are an outcast just because they're a member of another settlement?

-snip-

As for how to roleplay the Outcast Tag? My suggestion (and it is only a suggestion) is to presume it's a bit like a vauge but bad rumour you heard around town.
'Oye, that girl? That one with the blond hair? Yeah... she's -wierd-. I dunno what she did, but they say she got kicked out of her old town. Did something terrible. I dunno what.'
Rumours from the npcs whispered about basicaly. A shifty look about someone.
Maybe you can approach someone with 'Hrn. I think I heard Reginii muttering something about you as you went past. What's your story friend?'
Or maybe outcast players could add something in their descriptions.
There's a few options to make something of this, to actually play the concept of -Outcast-.

Here's the problem.

As it is now, it is encouraged for someone in Andunor to have a surface settlement contact who they can call down to right-click examine people to know if they're an outcast or not. Because if they aren't they "do not know of any bad rumours" about that individual. You can expect him to maybe be a surface spy, or not belong. Andunorians however can't make this distinction themselves.

This is the sort of thing that just seems off to me. I'm all for enforcing consequences for character choices. I'm playing a Warlock that spends more time pretending to be a fighter than actually using his class mechanics, because I'm playing in the surface like a good boy.

Here's a list of things you -could- do that would be an overall improvement on this:

1- Already suggested on the thread. Surface races volunteer to have a tattoo so Andunorians know they are cast offs from the surface. Since they clearly don't have access to surface rumor networks that prevent them from making that distinction right now, they'd probably need it.

2- Restrict this knowledge to Harper characters. And you now have a new class mechanic for the people playing that class, and they become more important to keeping your surface settlements free from andunorian spies.

3- Also already suggested on this thread, restrict outcast at character creation to a reward tier.

I'm not currently playing an outcast by the way, so I have no dog in this fight. The only reason I'm even posting in this thread, is because I want less metadata in my RP experience.

[Richørd]

Finally lock outcasts behind a reward.

Can we PLEASE not put yet another fun concept out of reach of good players and within reach of grinders whose sole reason for getting 5%s is that they can go from 0-30 in a two-week time frame and the roll repeatedly until they get to play the concept? Don't even suggest it.

If you want to limit it, do so based on rp quality, not ability to grind and roll in a short time-span. Thanks.

I think locking them behind a 5% reward would be unreasonable. A minor reward would do just fine.
Just so people can get a basic grasp of the server and the RP, you know?

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

Why a reward tier?

We're not trying to discourage people from playing outcasts nor are we trying to reduce their population -- which is the reason for reward-tier. And reward tier does NOT keep poor rpers from accessing it, nor does it ensure that they rp correctly.

I mean we made vampires 5% and we can still get rp where someone's character is a 2000-year-old who was like totes buds with Bane yo cuz like... they were chillin' and like.. me an' that god go like... waayyyyyy back ya know.

Reward tier does not ensure quality. Let's NOT make outcasts a reward tier as doing such runs outside of the entire purpose of the change, which is not to make them rare, but to make them actually play the way they're supposed to rather than using outcast status as a free-pass to Drow Disney while still enjoying the benefits of Unisurface Studios. You get one pass babe.

[Durvayas]

Finally lock outcasts behind a reward.

Can we PLEASE not put yet another fun concept out of reach of good players and within reach of grinders whose sole reason for getting 5%s is that they can go from 0-30 in a two-week time frame and the roll repeatedly until they get to play the concept? Don't even suggest it.

If you want to limit it, do so based on rp quality, not ability to grind and roll in a short time-span. Thanks.

Honestly, the problem is one of quality, in that people often take outcast but don't really play outcasts or don't know how, and also one of quantity, in that there are so many and having lots of the former makes them collectively more of an issue.

A normal or even minor reward is effortless to attain, and would serve primarily to ensure that only people who have already HAD a character to lvl 16 or higher have the opportunity to play an outcast. Alternatively, locking it behind RPR 20, which usually takes a few weeks to attain.
Preventing brand-new-to-the-server people from rolling outcasts, a difficult concept to actually roleplay well (the kind of human that thrives in a foreign, largely hostile environment, requires more thought than johnny on the cordor docks), would do wonders for the quality of the remaining outcasts moving forward. Making one would thus have a cost, and you would see people taking playing an outcast a little more seriously than they do now.

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

There's no "how to play an outcast". They're literally individuals whose sins on the surface are so egregious as to merit expulsion from traditional society. That can range from "I killed Superman" to "I like to wear women's clothing... with women still in them... after I've strangled them".

Drow on the other hand, I truly believe should be limited either by rpr or by reward system. They are a much more complex avenue of rp and much more prone to players arriving on the server and not knowing how they are played.

So yeah, I like where you're going with this. I just think it's misplaced and should be applied to actual races that require specific knowledge rather than outcasts which -- just don't.

I mean I can see how it would benefit a drow player to see less outcasts, and so I can see how it might be individually advantageous to you. But I don't think individual advantage should ever be the exigence for a server-wide policy or change.

[The GrumpyCat]

We're not trying to discourage people from playing outcasts nor are we trying to reduce their population -- which is the reason for reward-tier. And reward tier does NOT keep poor rpers from accessing it, nor does it ensure that they rp correctly.

#

This, basicaly. Locking it behind a minor award doesn't really do much, beyond maybe gating it away from first time players. Which isn't a terrible idea, but is far from the main issue I feel.

If we did decide to go the award rout (and I'm not saying that we should) then I'd probably suggest medium/greater but with an application, because when you introduce applications then people have to sell their concept and prove to use they know their stuff.

But this has the downside of creating a lot more work for the DM team.

I suppose another option that could happen is gating them behind a 30+ rpr bonus, but frankly that's been an aspect that, as a server we've moved away from, and I think it would not be very welcome.

But you know, as Durvyas says- and in this I think we agree, the issues with Ouctasts wasn't just the number (though speaking personaly there did seem to be rather a lot) but also the quality. Now that the rp that makes outcasts, outcasts is fully realized, I hope that we can actually see the background realized as it's supposed to be. I also hope it will lessen the amount of outcasts as people actually are driven to make a choice.

If they want to have their evil bad guy, but have some acceptence on the surface, to go 'under cover' as it were, to avoid the mark, then now they will have to make such a character -on the surface-. This might have a knockon effect of enhancing evil on the surface becase there'll just be more evil folks for people to band aorund, encouraging more player made evil factions somewhere other than Andunor.

And there are ways of telling surfacer humans from outcasts. Language, ability to use portals, watching their behavior in general. I must confess, I've not actually noticed loads of surfacers chilling around Andunor of late. If you are seeing a lot Durvayas, please do bring itto our attention? If it does genuinly seem to be a huge problem in Andunor, then it's something we should look at sure. But again I've... just.. not seen it myself?

[Richørd]

There's no "how to play an outcast".

...

So yeah, I like where you're going with this. I just think it's misplaced and should be applied to actual races that require specific knowledge rather than outcasts which -- just don't.

Excuse me, what? Are you implying that people that comitted crimes heinous enough to get them exiled from the surface, now forced to live in the most hostile environment, the freaking Underdark, while living under the opressive rule of drow matrons and one fabulous, blonde boi have no need to be RPd properly?

[Durvayas]

And there are ways of telling surfacer humans from outcasts. Language, ability to use portals, watching their behavior in general. I must confess, I've not actually noticed loads of surfacers chilling around Andunor of late. If you are seeing a lot Durvayas, please do bring itto our attention? If it does genuinly seem to be a huge problem in Andunor, then it's something we should look at sure. But again I've... just.. not seen it myself?

Surfacers in Andunor (ACTUAL surfacers) aside from spies, have actually not been much of a problem in the last couple months. I surmise this might be due to a large increase in raiding activity overall, improved counterintelligence with Andunoran spies on the surface(though this will probaly be negatively impacted by the new outcast change), and also just the sheer quantity of spies(or lingering surface PCs we've accused of being spies) we've killed making the casual surfacer more hesitant to linger. We literally do kill at least three spies a week in Andunor. The tourist population is, objectively, much less of a problem now than it used to be.

The only race that has stood out to me from the surface lately are gnomes. We've been having a lot of actual gnomes lingering in Andunor in the last several weeks, even saw one today. Some of them don't even bother disguising themselves as svirfs. Its odd.

As for the current update itself with the outcast recognition. Slaves being able to tell surfacers from outcasts might be an issue, in that they could easily be used as bloodhounds for detecting who actually belongs. If this hasn't been addressed, it might be desirable to change it so that slaves, like outcasts, can't tell the difference either, just to prevent anyone from generating a surfacer JUST to get enslaved for that purpose.

Edit: Formatting issues, elaboration

[The Rambling Midget]

That is a good question. How does someone know I'm an outcast if they don't know my name?

This is looking at it from the wrong direction. People don't know who you are, because you're an outcast. You're an outcast, because everyone knows who you are. (or at least such a vast majority of people that you meet trouble everywhere you go)

If there was any place left on the surface where you could go and live in peace, you wouldn't be an outcast.

[Sockss]

"Get the outcasts outta my UD" continues to be a theme of so many threads.

Outcasts really are not a problem in the underdark, at least from everything I've seen.

What I believe the underlying problem to be is that:

Some players of monster races in the underdark feel entitled to some form of respect / fear, from other races, simply by picking a race. Rather than spending the time to cultivate that fear/respect.

Some players of monster races are unaware of the (not even unique) environment in Andunor. A trade city, with as much (likely more with slaves) race variance than Cordor.


Gating them behind anything seems detrimental to the server as a whole for me, because you limit variety - which is the spice of RP.

It also seems an odd thing to campaign for when the most egregious RP always has and always will come from things with much narrower RP scope. (Monster races/paladins/pm's/druids/wizards etc ). Not outcasts. I don't see the campaign for gating those.

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

Excuse me, what? Are you implying that people that comitted crimes heinous enough to get them exiled from the surface, now forced to live in the most hostile environment, the freaking Underdark, while living under the opressive rule of drow matrons and one fabulous, blonde boi have no need to be RPd properly?

Worse. I'm implying a trained monkey could do it.

[Durvayas]

Excuse me, what? Are you implying that people that comitted crimes heinous enough to get them exiled from the surface, now forced to live in the most hostile environment, the freaking Underdark, while living under the opressive rule of drow matrons and one fabulous, blonde boi have no need to be RPd properly?

Worse. I'm implying a trained monkey could do it.

Thats literally part of the issue. The bar for quality required from outcasts is that low. You're proving the point being made quite handily.

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

Honestly, the problem is one of quality, in that people often take outcast but don't really play outcasts or don't know how, and also one of quantity, in that there are so many and having lots of the former makes them collectively more of an issue.

Edit this to say drow, and I would say you increase the accuracy of the statement by 47%.

I'm not saying this to be glib. It was genuinely a far greater problem when I played a drow than an outcast. Hence the development of a "not drow only" UD. Devs and DMs alike recognized that something about drow rp turns some very reasonable, good players into competitive monsters. I call it the "youth soccer effect". Reasonable parents are suddenly screaming like banshees at some poor 14-year-old ref, threatening the life of the kid over a bad call. That's my analogy for drow rp. Outcast rp tends to be far less intense.

The presence of Outcasts has mitigated that and forced drow to "earn" their respect. When you play a drow, it's a little disconcerting, but the benefits far outweigh the costs. Reducing outcasts would create a Drow-heavy UD that would once again suffer from the same malaise as Udos.

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

Thats literally part of the issue. The bar for quality required from outcasts is that low. You're proving the point being made quite handily.

The fact that you thought I was being at all serious instead of elbowing a friend -- is extremely disturbing to me.

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

"Get the outcasts outta my UD" continues to be a theme of so many threads.

Outcasts really are not a problem in the underdark, at least from everything I've seen.

What I believe the underlying problem to be is that:

Some players of monster races in the underdark feel entitled to some form of respect / fear, from other races, simply by picking a race. Rather than spending the time to cultivate that fear/respect.

Some players of monster races are unaware of the (not even unique) environment in Andunor. A trade city, with as much (likely more with slaves) race variance than Cordor.


Gating them behind anything seems detrimental to the server as a whole for me, because you limit variety - which is the spice of RP.

It also seems an odd thing to campaign for when the most egregious RP always has and always will come from things with much narrower RP scope. (Monster races/paladins/pm's/druids/wizards etc ). Not outcasts. I don't see the campaign for gating those.

This is, and will remain, the most well-constructed and the most empirically supported post in this thread. This is EXACTLY the issue and it has been since Orly'ette threw his first mass-tantrum over the inclusion of outcasts in the UD.

Thank you for posting it.

And before anyone makes assumptions, I play far more drow than I do outcasts. It's a 6:1 ratio in favor of drow.

[Durvayas]

Thats literally part of the issue. The bar for quality required from outcasts is that low. You're proving the point being made quite handily.

The fact that you thought I was being at all serious instead of elbowing a friend -- is extremely disturbing to me.

You may have been joking, but quite frankly, what you said is still accurate. I've seen many well made, well thought out, well played outcasts. I've also seen, many, many, many outcasts that weren't actually outcasts. Just surface PCs with an easier leveling path. Some are shocked when someone gets stabbed in the city street, some are shocked at slavery. For all the 'this person did something atrocious that landed them as a pariah from society', I've seen entirely too many who don't seem to know what they actually signed up to be.

Currently, there is no restriction on creating an outcast whatsoever. I'm all for a token, or a process, or a reward, or ANYTHING that raises the quality bar. If someone is going to play a human monster among the monsters, I'd prefer they at least know ahead of time what that actually entails beyond it sounding cool five minutes after they input the IP address to direct connect to the server.
Drow that don't play drow are quickly dealt with, either by the DM team because of the no-drizzt rule, or by the helping hand of the locals.

Consider what is being proposed a no-drizzt policy on poorly designed outcasts.

[WinkinBlinkin]

I'm going to suggest again : Get rid of Outcast status almost completely, and make it so that diviners can tell whether you are attuned to the underdark or the surface realm. From a surfacers point of view, being attuned to the underdark could be the entire reason you are mistrusted/shunned. Any additional reason a player wants to give for their character being attuned to the underdark is icing on the cake. Bluff and disguise and even other methods that usually block scrying could potentially counter this.

It solves the WoW gamification problem of additional tags.
It has much better internal logic.
It provides equity between surface and underdark players in terms of being able to recognise the "opposition".
It no longer means 2nd level characters have amazing back stories that involve half the population of the isle.
Its a nice little bonus to divination.

[Necrotic Nefertiti]

You may have been joking, but quite frankly, what you said is still accurate. I've seen many well made, well thought out, well played outcasts. I've also seen, many, many, many outcasts that weren't actually outcasts. Just surface PCs with an easier leveling path. Some are shocked when someone gets stabbed in the city street, some are shocked at slavery. For all the 'this person did something atrocious that landed them as a pariah from society', I've seen entirely too many who don't seem to know what they actually signed up to be.

This is offensive on so many levels that I can't even address it.

[WinkinBlinkin]

To clarify, I am suggesting removing the option to begin life as an Outcast and replacing it with the option to begin life "Attuned to the Underdark" instead.

It would generate the exact same response and have the exact same repercussions that being an Outcast should have now, just without the tortuous mental athletics that currently go with it.

[Ebonstar]

Thats literally part of the issue. The bar for quality required from outcasts is that low. You're proving the point being made quite handily.

The fact that you thought I was being at all serious instead of elbowing a friend -- is extremely disturbing to me.

You may have been joking, but quite frankly, what you said is still accurate. I've seen many well made, well thought out, well played outcasts. I've also seen, many, many, many outcasts that weren't actually outcasts. Just surface PCs with an easier leveling path. Some are shocked when someone gets stabbed in the city street, some are shocked at slavery. For all the 'this person did something atrocious that landed them as a pariah from society', I've seen entirely too many who don't seem to know what they actually signed up to be.

Currently, there is no restriction on creating an outcast whatsoever. I'm all for a token, or a process, or a reward, or ANYTHING that raises the quality bar. If someone is going to play a human monster among the monsters, I'd prefer they at least know ahead of time what that actually entails beyond it sounding cool five minutes after they input the IP address to direct connect to the server.
Drow that don't play drow are quickly dealt with, either by the DM team because of the no-drizzt rule, or by the helping hand of the locals.

Consider what is being proposed a no-drizzt policy on poorly designed outcasts.

95% of outcasts are outcast for mechanical reasons and not RP reasons. I agree with the need of a token or an award to play one simply because of this fact. If humans were not mechanically better than the UD races, with their gifts and free feats and be whatever you wish, there would not be an outcast problem. Only the true Outcasts would flee to the dark, those who have been tossed from mainstream society through RP and actions of their character, not because they click a prompt in a conversation.

Those who choose to be outcast need to have more detriment for the choice than not owning things on the surface or not being able to use boats.

For example, if you choose Outcast you lose the gift choices of a surface human. Make it something to balance mechanics and the number will quickly fall into line with the norm.

[Iceborn]

While I really, really don't like how "optimal" humans are to build anything, and I wish that every race would get the +1 skills/level that they get, I don't think that Outcasts need to be directly inferior to other humans characters.

This is a thematic choice. The fact is that you have to own that choice and be willing to completely, wholly embrace it.
And a lot of players simply have not done that. This change does not stop them from doing anything; this change is a reminder of their place, their thematic choice, and the consequences that they signed up to.

And this is not a thing that it's exclusive of Outcasts.
When you play a slave, you have to play a slave.
When you paly a monster, you have to play a monster.
So be it kobold, goblin, drow, orog. You play your part of the role.
You face the good side of your roleplay, and you face the restrictions that come with your roleplay.
You have to embrace it side and side to properly portray your character. In RP, in mechanical limitations, in self-imposed limitations.
So it's up again to the players to adapt and realize again, the full depth of this thematic choice that they've taken and figure how to wrap their heads around it. And I'm very sorry if this is not what you thought your character was going to be, but we have it written down in the wiki very clearly in the background section, and I just took some time to expand the "playing any UD race" article.

Enjoy.
http://wiki.arelith.com/Playing_any_UD_race#Outcasts
http://wiki.arelith.com/Background

[Sea Shanties]

"95% of outcasts are outcast for mechanical reasons and not RP reasons" is insulting to dozens or even hundreds of fellow players and that kind of blanket condemnation doesn't help anything. Plenty play outcasts because they want to play evil humans in a dark and evil setting. There's nothing wrong with that and you don't know what's in their heads when they create the character.

It's also a legal choice, there should be no stigma for choosing to play something that isn't against the rules. And even if the mechanical advantages are a factor in the choice that's rarely the ONLY factor. People generally don't stick around with characters whose RP they don't enjoy. It's not a black-and-white issue.

I have seen plenty of amazing outcasts. Some of the best players down there were human and the proportion of good-to-weak RP is the same as any other race. The problem is the weak do stand out a little more. Evil outcasts can be amazing but the "aw shucks, how did I get here?" neutral outcasts can push credibility. I hate to single out anyone's RP but the ingenue type should probably be relegated to slave and outcasts need to be "big evil" to really work. But I don't think the whole system should be scrapped, it just could stand to be tweaked a bit to balance with other races. Maybe this new change is even all the tweaking we need.

I do think restrictions should be tightened (like, must be evil aligned only for one, and I'm not against requiring a minor award). If it wouldn't be such a nightmare to keep track of I'd actually suggest requiring a note to the DMs about "why" you're an outcast at level 3, if only to have something to call people out on if they do try to have the best of both worlds. But you know, the status quo really isn't that bad either.

[Durvayas]

snip

95% of outcasts are outcast for mechanical reasons and not RP reasons. I agree with the need of a token or an award to play one simply because of this fact. If humans were not mechanically better than the UD races, with their gifts and free feats and be whatever you wish, there would not be an outcast problem. Only the true Outcasts would flee to the dark, those who have been tossed from mainstream society through RP and actions of their character, not because they click a prompt in a conversation.

Those who choose to be outcast need to have more detriment for the choice than not owning things on the surface or not being able to use boats.

For example, if you choose Outcast you lose the gift choices of a surface human. Make it something to balance mechanics and the number will quickly fall into line with the norm.

Be fair. 95% is far too high a number. Hyperbolic even. A more reasonable estimate would be 50%, but its absurd to argue that 19/20 outcasts are made purely for mechanical reasons.

Is it a major factor? Absolutely, but its not THAT bad.